Old game Bred Bull terriers

Great write up! I agree with everything you wrote. Looking forward to read more information from you!

 

Good posts. The only thing I didn't agree with is the comment that the APBT doesn't have a breed standard. They most certianly do.

ADBA Conformation Standard Breakdown

I. Introduction
A. To truly understand any breed standard, one must know the history behind a breeds existence .

B. The purpose of a judge is the unbiased selection of quality breeding stock with true breed type .

C. The responsibility of judging is to put up the dogs that conform most to the conformation standard leaving personal bias aside.

II. Overall Appearance 20 points

A . Conforming to breed type

1. Should look like an American Pit Bull Terrier from across the ring

2. Sturdy, three dimensional. Giving the impression of strength, not slight or frail.

3. Appears square, with heavy boned, solid front end with a light and springy back end.

4. Should look athletic, not bulky. Musculature should be smooth but defined.

5. Presentation of an adult dog should be of a lean, exercised animal showing a hint of rib and backbone (without hipbones showing) with muscles firm and defined. Clean, glossy coat with short trimmed nails. Presentation of dogs in the puppy classes should be of a well nourished puppy, showing no ribs, backbone or hips. Coat should be glossy with short, trimed nails.

B. Balance

1. Equal angulation of front and rear assembly - judged best at the trot.

2. Height to weight ratio - the tallest dog at a given weight

3. Head size in proportion to the body, with a neck long enough to have the head appear above the top of the back when head is in a normal upright position.

C. Presentation

1. Dog is socialized , showing interest in things around him.

2. Although some degree of dog aggressiveness is characteristic of the breed, unruly behavior will detract from the judges ability to accurately judge an individual dogs conformation.

D. Health

1. The vitality of the dogs spirit, the gloss of the dogs coat and the sharpness of the dogs eye, will exude the healthfulness of the individual animal.

2. Colors or color patterns known to be genetically linked to health problems will be considered a serious fault . Major faults: merle color pattern, albinism(white dog with blue or pink eyes, pink nose, lips, no pigment present on pads, rims of eyes etc.)

III. Attitude 10 points

A. Confident and alert

B. Interested in things around them, in control of their space, not threatened by anything in their surroundings .

C. Gentle with loved ones Faults: shy or timid

IV. Back end 30 points

A. Loin

1. Broad and long enough to square the dog. Too short can interfere with a dogs flexibility. Too long a loin causes the dog to carry excessive weight and affect a dogs agility and quickness..

B. Hip

1. Long and sloping with adequate width. This can be judged by the set of the tail, which should be low.

2. Ideal slope of hip should be 30 degrees to the ground .

C. Proportions of the back leg .

1. The femur should be of a length so that the stifle joint is proportioned in the upper 1/3 of the rear assembly.

2. The tibia-fibula is the longer bone of the rear assembly

3. The length of the metatarsal is moderate, with muscles that attach equally on each side of the bone so that the hocks move parallel to each other, deviating neither in or out. The metatarsals bones, hock and lower part of the tibia will be light, fine and springy.

4. Rear angulation - ratio between the lengths of the bones and the muscles which attach on these bones, causes a bent stifle which leads to a well bent hock. This contributes to the natural springiness that is desired in the rear assembly.

5. The muscle attachment is long and deep, well past the joint , which causes the muscles to appear smooth, but defined. (Not bunchy).

Faults: short or flat hip, straight stifle, double jointed or slipped hock, cow hocked, bunchy muscles.

V. Front end 20 points

A. Ribcage

1. Deep and elliptical with a prominent breastbone or prosternum. From the side, the bottom of the ribcage should at least be even with the elbow joint.

2. Well sprung at the top, tapering to the bottom, extending well back into the loin.

B. Shoulders

1. Wider than the ribcage at the 8 th rib. Scapula well laid back, 45 degree or less angle to the ground, and broad and flat allowing for adequate muscular attachment for a heavy and sturdy front end.

2. The humerus is angled at an opposite 45 degree angle and is long enough that the elbow comes to the bottom of the ribcage, elbows lying flat against the body.

3. Forearms are slightly longer than the humerus and solid, twice the thickness of the metatarsal at the hock.

C. Feet

1. Small and tight, set high on pasterns.

2. Pads thick, and well built up

3. Dew claws are natural on front feet, and do not naturally occur on back legs.

Faults: barrel chest, narrow chest, fine bones, out at elbows, down in pasterns, splay feet, thin pads, back dew claws.

VI. Head and Neck 15 points

A. Neck

1. Heavily muscled to the base of the skull

2. Long in length

B. Head

1. Head size balanced in relationship to the rest of the body

2. 2/3 the width of the shoulders

3. Wedge shaped when viewed from the top or side, round when viewed from the front.

4. Cheeks 25% wider than the neck at the base of the skull

5. The length from the nose to the stop should equal the length from the stop to the back of the head.

6. The bridge of the muzzle is well developed. The fill in under the eyes should be wider than the head at the base of the ears.

7. The head should be deep from the top of the head to the bottom of the jaw.

8. Straight box like muzzle

9. Lips tight

10. Teeth, incisors should meet in the front in a scissor bite. Canines should be wide at the base and taper to the end, top canines fitting tightly together behind the bottom canines. They should be sound and healthy with none missing.

11. Eyes, small and deep set. Elliptical when viewed from the front, triangular when viewed from the side.

12. Ears- no preference should be given to cropped or uncropped ears, except to enhance the overall attractiveness of the individual dog.

Faults: short neck, cheeky, underdeveloped muzzle, lippy, missing canines, overshot or undershot to the extent that the canines do not fit tightly together.

VII. Tail and Coat 5 points

A. Coat

1. Skin thick and loose around neck and chest, tight fitting elsewhere, showing vertical folds around the neck and chest even in a well exercised animal.

2. Short and bristled, the gloss showing overall health of the animal.

3. Color or any combination of colors, except for colors or color patterns known to be genetically linked to health problems.

B. Tail

1. Thick at the base, tapering to the point. It's length should have the tail extending to the point of the hock.

2. Hang down like a pump handle when relaxed.

Major faults: Merle color pattern or albinism. (White dog, blue or pink eyes, lacks pigment )

Faults: Longer coat, fringed hair on tail or elsewhere, bobbed tail or any tail other than straight.

Disqualifications: Man aggression, one sided or both sided cryptorchid, spayed or neutered dogs

Above all, the American Pit Bull Terrier should appear to be an all around athlete. His body is called upon for speed, power, agility and stamina. He must be balanced in all directions. Too much of one thing, robs him of another. In his ideal form, he is a thing of beauty.

 

An APBT standard that not once mentions the word "game"?

I'm sorry, but there's only one way to judge an APBT, and holding it to any other "standard" is only going to see the breed go the way of its staffy, Irish, Amstaff and EBT cousins. I do not condone pit fighting, but let's face it: it is an integral part of the APBT breed - it is the only ring that counts.

Certainly a good-looking dog is a good-looking dog, and the APBT should be admired for all its other worthy attributes - in many ways it is one of the best alround breeds there are. Some would argue it is the best. But once you start breeding to a "standard" instead of a purpose, you lose the breed. For example, how do you know which dogs to breed from to pass on the traits you most value that are not apparent to the eye?

German shepherds are a classic example of this - though at least the Germans themselves continued to impose a schutzhund (working) title standard on all breeding dogs to assess their suitability, whilst the eastern bloc nations continued to breed pure and tested working lines. As a result, there are now three different types of shepherd: show, Western and Eastern working lines. The show lines are an abomination. Some of the eastern lines are now starting to be corrupted because people are breeding bigger, large-boned, aggressive dogs thinking that's what's needed to dominate PP . . . and because it looks good. But a good shepherd - like a good APBT - is an athletic alrounder in addition (and as a compliment) to its primary purpose. Fighting, in the case of the APBT, and shepherding/guarding, in the case of the GS. Size and large bone actually limits the dog's ability to work all day by impeding on its agility, stamina and athletic ability. And that's why schutzhund includes agility and tracking titles as well as personal protection. It's the reason Western and some eastern (Czech etc) working line shepherds are almost indistinguishable from Max Von Stephaniz original "shepherd hund" of more than 100 years ago. The perseverance of dog fighting in the US is the reason the APBT most closely resembles the pit dogs of yore.

On that note, breeding large, big-boned dogs is what is ruining the bull terrier almost as much as the obsession with its head. IMO, a good male bully should be no more than 25kg (55lb) in trim.

But you guys already know all this. As someone here has already said about the bull terrier: that's what you get when you breed something that looks the business without doing the business. Except, I would argue, they don't even look the business these days.

So what is a bull terrier's business? It is often quoted that Hinks bred a dog that could be "pitted one day, shown the next". People forget that Hinks was a dog fighter and had a stable of pit dogs to choose from. And if you look at the other dogs he used to create his white cavalier, you can see he wanted something more than a show dog. The white terrier was a tenacious foxing/ratting dog. The dalmatian was a ratter/hunter/guardian with extraodinary stamina. I don't believe the bullshit about borzois being used to create a "downface", as the original Hinks dogs never had a down face - just a reduced stop, which was likely a product of elongating the bull-and-terrier muzzle with the combination of dalmatian.

While dog fighting and bull/bear baiting were banned in England 1835, pitting was still very popular right up until the end of the century and beyond. None of us were around in those days, but is it so hard to imagine, if we were, how people would laugh at those who owned tough-looking dogs that couldn't match it in the ring? Especially as there would have been no excuses: pit fighting was everywhere.

How popular do you think Hinks' dogs would have been if they were all show and no go - especially after promoting them as such? And then calling them "white cavalier"! He would have been a laughing stock! Remember, it was the rich and upper gentry who could most afford to participate in the combat sports above all others. Horse racing, cock fighting, dog fighting. No wonder the elite were Hinks' sales target . . .

While it cannot be denied that the bull terrier later became a fashion statement - much like the APBT is becoming today - what I believe Hinks wanted to create was a fighting dog with style. Everyone loves a fighter. Everyone likes a looker. How well would combining the two sell? (Look at Muhammed Ali.) Hinks was a dogman, but primarily a businessman (the latter leading to the former). If his dogs didn't perform, then how did his reputation persevere?

So let us not condone the bull terrier for what it is not today, but what - I believe - it once was and could still have been.

 

I don't mean to be rude but the Bull Terrier was bred to a standard right from the start....

 

I don't know how many Cajun-style fights you've witnessed, but how do you judge? You say the best bull terrier you've seen wouldn't last 30 minutes. Do you mean "wouldn't" or "didn't"? There is a difference.

Yes, average bull terriers run out of steam - they don't have the lungs or legs of the average APBT. And yes, they tend to have a lower threshold to pain. The most startling thing many find about witnessing an APBT fight for the first time is the complete silence. They don't make a fuss - they just fight. Some won't even whine when injured. Some will. One reason the Chinese didn't like bull terriers was because they made noise (overt pain display; lack of gameness). And because it was a bit of a waste of time trying to find one that could put up a good fight compared with the average APBT - which were much easier to find and import. But they will all tell you they can bite. Specifically the older style bull terriers without the deformed skull.

In fact, APBTs don't have a particularly hard bite at all in the canine world - there are lots of breeds that bite harder. Its all physics - which I don't have time to go into - but here's a great read on the subject explaining why the old-style bull terriers have very good bite force potential:

http://www.americanbandog.com/apps/forums/topics/show/7072111

 

You think these measurements are fully accurate? Have you seen any other breed finish another dog of the same size in less than 5 minutes....

 

You're not being rude. But "standard" is in many ways a matter of semantics. There was no written standard in the early bull terrier days: just function (fighting ability) matched to a type of form (a certain look or style). Indeed, form does play a part in all working breeds - which is what led to "standards" in the first place. (As can be seen in the APBT standard above.)

A dog must possess a form that enables it to perform its function in the most efficient manner. A greyhound can't run fast with short legs. A greyhound can't run fast with heavy bone. Therefore, a greyhound that can't run fast due to lack of physical form does not meet the standard for a greyhound. The standard is based on performance . . . which so happens to coincide with confirmation. On the flip side, a grey greyhound can still run as fast as a white greyhound or a black greyhound or a brown greyhound. Colour plays no part in form or confirmation, so why should the greyhound standard be restricted to particular a colour? Which it isn't.

Now, there is some truth that certain colours are associated with certain genetic markers - white for deafness, red for pain threshold - but that doesn't mean all white dogs are deaf, or all red dogs have a high tolerance to pain. However, the genetic relationship does exist and so should be considered in breeding and in setting the standard. It comes down to a law of probabilities.

The point in all of this is that when you start breeding away from form as a function of performance, you are really breeding away from the standard . . . even though you are using the standard as a basis for breeding! Confused? Is a red nose still a red nose without a red nose?

The white cavalier - as its name suggested - was white. And that was arguably its first fault and initial downfall. If a bull terrier had to be white, then a non-white dog - no matter how good or conforming to the ideal in every other way - had to be discarded. As a result, the breed as a whole became sickly and plagued with health issues (that are seen to this day), and would likely have gone extinct. If not for the the reintroduction of the original blood that gave the bull terrier its "cavalier" name in the first place, there would no longer have been a "white cavalier" - or bull terrier - as we now know it. Indeed, the bull terrier has survived, but is no longer a "white" cavalier.

So yes, the bull terrier was bred to a standard from the beginning. And part of that standard caused its regression. But the other part of its standard is what gave the bull terrier such potential - and could be used to restore the breed if interpreted in its purest form.

It could just as equally be argued that the APBT was also bred to a standard from the beginning - and still is. That standard being gameness. Because when all else is equal - size, weight, confirmation, fitness, athleticism - it is gameness that will give a dog an edge. And it is not restricted to dogs.

Indeed, it is gameness that gives every human endeavour an edge: the stoicism to never give up in the face of adversity - to give something everything you've got, even if you lose. Or die. It is the thing we admire perhaps more than anything else - even more than fighting ability itself - which is why there was never a physical standard for the APBT. But there was still a "standard".

I hope this makes a bit of sense o_O

 

Yes. I once saw a doberman pinscher bite down on a bull terrier's neck and kill it in 30 seconds. If a doberman has the power to do that to a thick, heavy-boned dog in a single bite, then it certainly has to power to dispatch another dog of the same size.

 

I doubt that happened, only way I've seen one finish another that quick is to the back end, any links to the clip?

 

LOL! This happened in real life. You know, before the Youtube generation. I'm probably a fair bit older than you. I take it you've never seen a match live?

 

I think you've been reading too many fantasy stories tbh. The average Bull Terrier doesn't bite as hard as the average APBT....

 

i think he mean that the pitbull standard has no measures to be observed..But The apbt have a functional standard..
You are right in many things But please, chinese people are The worst dogmans in the word...they eat dogs..don't love them and they don't give the respect dogs deserve..i think They are totally clouless about Pit dogs. Maybe i'm wrong but this is what i think.
About dobermans..it's hard to belive..if you have said 5 minutes maybe but 30 seconds to mars (lol) it's Not believable..

 

He seemed a reasonable and intelligent poster until he came out with that, a Doberman killed a Bull Terrier with a back of the neck hold in 30 seconds, I'll have some of what he's smoking please....

 

Yes, I've seen you level that one at others on this board before. But you should really do me the courtesy of at least detailing all your experience so that we can all gauge from whence it springs. I mean, so far we know you're 31, you've been a member here for a month, you've read a bit, you live in the UK, but none of us have seen any evidence of your dogs, or handling experience - let alone details of any real matches you've witnessed.

Now, I don't mean to be disrespectful - at least, no more disrespectful than you have been towards myself and others on these boards - but you really need to put something up here. Tell me: how hard does an APBT bite?

While you go away and research that, I'll tell you a little story, as I'm not going to have much time later to write this down. I still have my notes from that China match in 2000 and, while I don't have many more photos on file from those days, I can at least explain in detail how an "average" modern APBT match pans out under Cajun-style rules.

Wong Dai - or "Big Yellow" - was a three-time match-winner. Here he is before he was about to be put down at the end of the match:



I was told he was Sorrell, but I had now way of knowing. He was matched against a red dog that no-one seemed to know much about, and obviously didn't rate because Big Yellow was the 3:1 favourite and had a few pounds on his smaller opponent, which was a younger and less experienced dog from Hong Kong.

During the early part of the scratch, Big Yellow dominated, with good muzzle, chest and neck holds. The red dog often allowed himself to be pushed into the rails, or on to the ground as the bigger white and tan ignored his opponent's underbelly and erect penis (both dogs would be so excited in the early stages of the match that they would both display their dicks), going instead for the loose folds of the jowls, cheeks and ears, and occasionally a foreleg or wrist. The red dog was content to take this punishments and continued to scratch after each hold, losing some blood but showing no other signs of discomfort.

This is what the red looked like after about an hour:



After an hour-and-half, Big Yellow slowed down and the red dog took advantage, working the forelegs and stifle joints. After a series of good foreleg holds and scratches, finally Big Yellow started to lose the use of his right leg and started to show signs of discomfort; first whimpering and then looking around for his owner. Another scratch was made, and Big Yellow came out and tried to take the fight on his hind legs:



The red dog turned its attention to the right stifle joint of Big Yellow and worked it until a series of breaks and scratches were called. Big Yellow continued to scratch, but was becoming more vocal and clearly was too injured to defend himself.



At about the two hour mark, the red dog started working the left foreleg before another break and scratch, finally turning his attention to the injured right foreleg causing Big Yellow yelp and refused to come out of his corner after the break. The leg was broken.

The moral of the story is two-fold:

First, it took two hours for an average APBT to break the leg of another average APBT despite many good holds throughout the match. These photos show what an average APBT mouth can do, so judge for yourself.

Second, the paradox of the game-bred dog is that the only time you'll ever know if it's truely game is if it loses. And then it's matter of how game do you want him to be? A dead-game dog is still a dead dog.

I now await your exploits, DogMan85.

 

I make no judgements about the Chinese, but it stands to reason if you match your dogs - and want them to win - you're not going to eat them. But seriously, if you think they spend all that money not to give the dog the best chance in the pit, then . . .

And yeah, one large doberman, one bull terrier, and one bite to the back of the neck. All over in 30 seconds. Does it matter how long it took the bull terrier to clinically die after it was bitten? You don't think a doberman can kill a bull terrier? I guess it doesn't really matter what you think.

 

Walt Disney would be happy with you....

 

Of course it doesn't mention gamness. Dog fighting is illegal here however you said there was no standard to the breed where I clearly show that there is. MayBe not hundreds of years ago but there is certianly a standard to the breed these days and has been for a pretty long time. So by your way of thinking, if a tosa fights for a long period even though they are getting beat yet continues to cross the line then it's now considered an APBT lol?. No, of course it's not it's still just a tosa. Every breed considered a purebred dog has a standard as far as conformation goes. Or it wouldn't be a breed.

 

I understand what your saying just disagree on that one part. They do have a written standard as well as a standard true fanciers go by.

 

You're not very original, are you? :rolleyes:

You know, I've read this whole thread and I've been trying to figure out what, exactly, it is that makes someone like you an expert on all that's been written here. And honestly, all I can come up with is this:

That pretty much says it all. An armchair expert who watches a lot of videos, reads a few forums, calls himself "DogMan85" - even though he doesn't own a working dog and has never trained one - has never been to a live match and only really knows what he's read elsewhere.

Come on champ - show us something. Anything.

What is the measure of an APBT's bite? You need a baseline before you can draw a conclusion. What is your baseline?

 

APBT ,,in every way ,,but mainly gameness and bit ,,are way above Bull Terriers ,,they are a show dog , with very poor bite ,,, in my country back in late 70s and 80s ,,some got shown with APBT ,,,they proved they ware poor , very poor ,,, not game , no ability at all,,