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APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

Discussion in 'Staffordshire Bull Terriers' started by JBL, Jan 31, 2014.

  1. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    Heron Denny, called in; and Examined.

    248. YOU are an inspector of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Heron Denny. Animals, I believe ?—Yes.
    249. Have you any particular case of cruelty to state with regard to domestic animals, that has come under your own observation ?—I remember seeing great cruelty towards an animal in Oxford-street once.
    250. You have witnessed great cruelty to various animals, the hog in particular ?—Yes. The animal I allude to had some of its guts hanging out; whether
    Heron Denny, they were torn out by the dog or no I cannot say, but I saw the man beat it
    while its entrails were out.
    251. Did you take any means to discover the person who was driving ?—Being aware that there was no act to punish the man, I did not interfere, for I got myself several times abused by speaking to them.
    252. You stated just now that the man was beating him?—Yes.
    253. It was to get him along as fast as the others ?—Yes.
    254. You call that cruelty ?—Yes.
    255. What was the difficulty of proceeding against him ?—There is no law.
    256. Have you been unsuccessful with regard to any information you may have laid with regard to hogs?—There was no individual ever brought up.
    257. You are aware that there is no Act of Parliament by which you can punish cruelty to the hog ?—Yes.
    258. How are you convinced, from your own impression of the law, or from having failed in any case brought before a magistrate?—I never failed, because there was no Act of Parliament; the hog was left out of all the Acts.
    259. You are a paid officer of the Society ?—Yes.
    260. And would therefore, in performance of your duty to them as well as from motives of humanity, interfere, provided the law justified your interference ?—Yes.
    261. Have you frequently seen dogs ill treated? —In the pits where there was dog fighting and badger baiting. I was one of the individuals who interfered as to the pit at Westminster which was suppressed.
    262. On the subject of pits, you stated just now, that one pit had been put down by the intervention of the Society to which you belong; will you state in what manner that was done ?—It was brought to the Westminster sessions, under the Act against nuisances, not for cruelty.
    263. And indicted as a nuisance?—Yes.
    264. And what happened ?—The owner of the pit was found guilty, and sentenced to six months imprisonment, and he was begged off by the Society, provided he would abandon his pit.
    265. Was he imprisoned at all?—Yes, he was, for some time; I am not positive whether he was not all the time; it was a very great nuisance; the Society spoke on his behalf, and wished him not to undergo the punishment.
    266. It was proved at the sessions that it was a great public nuisance ?—Yes.
    267. If the Society had funds, they would indict all the pits in London as nuisances ?—I do not know.
    268. Have they undertaken some which were not successful ?—Yes, there were some that were not successful.
    269. Will you mention one?—I think it was one near West-street, Smithfield.
    270. What led to the failure of that case ?—It was found I believe that they could not bring it forward under the Cruelty Act, and there was no other Act.
    271. Why was it not indicted as a nuisance?—I cannot answer that question.
    272. Is there any one connected with the Society that can answer that question ?—Yes Mr Gomperz
     
  2. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    Mr. Gompertz, called in ; and Examined.

    273. What was the cause of the failure of the indictment ?—It was indicted for cruelty and not for nuisance.
    274. It failed on account of the indictment being wrong?—The neighbours failed to come forward; in the other case it was indicted by the neighbours themselves.
    275. They went forward before the magistrate ?—Yes.
    276. And gave evidence there ?—No, not in that first case; not sufficiently strong to convict the man.

    Heron Denny, re-called.

    277. You have no doubt that constant acts of cruelty could be remedied by you or persons having a delegated power, if an increased Bill was the. law of
    the land; you mean to say that Mr. Martin's Bill which only affects cruelty towards cattle, is not sufficient to repress cruelty to animals in general; is that your opinion ?—Yes.

    WILLIAM ALEXANDER MACKINNON, ESQ.

    John Roach, called in; and Examined.

    278. Where do you live ?—At West-street, West Smithfield.
    279. Are you a proprietor of one of the pits kept for fighting dogs ?—Yes.
    280. And this pit is often attended by people in the neighbourhood ?—Yes.
    281. Respectable housekeepers ?—Yes.
    282. Have you ever heard that they have made any complaint of the way in which that pit is conducted?—Never since I have conducted it, which is ten years.
    283. Have any robberies ever been committed in that pit?—Never.
    284. What sort of fights take place there?—Dogs; nothing else.
    285. You are acquainted with the value of dogs; what is the average value of a good fighting dog ?—A good fighting dog sometimes fetches three, four or five guineas.
    286. Have you known them to fetch more than that ?—Yes, I have known them to fetch ten.
    287. Did you know a famous dog of the name of Billy?—Yes.
    288. How old was he when he died ?—Twelve or thirteen years old.
    289. Can you at all calculate how many battles he had fought?—I think, to the best of my recollection, fourteen or fifteen.
    290. What did he die of?—Of old age, and is now stuffed in a case.
    291. It is not a usual circumstance for dogs to fight five or six battles and not to be the worse for it ?—I have one now at home that has fought six battles, and you can scarcely see a scar on him.
    292. Will you have the goodness to state how many pits for fighting dogs there are now in London ?—I think there are four.
    293. Cox's, your own, Clark's, and Weatherhead's ?—Yes.
    294. Are you aware of any other?—Yes, I believe there is one more, at Peptford, I think.
    295. Can you take upon you to say that the number of pits in London is less than the number of pits was five years ago?—Yes, they certainly are.
    296. Can you state how many fewer; one, or two, or three?—I think about two.
    297. Can you give any opinion as to whether, if those pits were put down, dog-fighting would cease to exist ?—I should think it would create a greater nuisance, because there were persons who, before those pits were, used to be in the habit of taking them out in the fields and fighting them.
    298. Do you think there would be any fights in private rooms ?—There are sure to be.
    299. Are there gentlemen that are much interested in those fights ?—Yes.
    300. Who give great prices for the dogs ?—'Yes.
    301. And who, you think, would be inclined to have those fights in private rooms if pits did not exist ? —Yes.
    302. Is there much betting about your neighbourhood ?—Yes; there is small betting, not great bets; there are many gentlemen that have dogs for amusement for themselves.
    303. Are the pits attended by the same characters as attend races?—No, I do not know that they are; they are the same that attend man-fighting; there are a great many gentlemen that train dogs for fighting that never bet a farthing.
    304. Is a dog ever killed in a fight?—I never knew but one, and then he had a fit.
    305. You keep the dog-pit; you are the proprietor of it?—Yes.
    306. And you obtain your livelihood by that ?—Yes; and by keeping the dogs, and by rearing them to send abroad.
    307. Of course if there was any Bill to be passed putting down dog-fighting, that would be a great injury to you ?—It would be a great injury, of course.
    308. You say that you have seen some dogs that have fought and hardly had a scar upon them; those must be very good dogs ?—Very quiet dogs.
    309. They must be' valuable dogs, must they not ?—Yes.
    310. You have some dogs that will not fight at all I.—We have dogs that will not fight at all.
    311. What is done with them ?—They are sent abroad for breeding.
    312. Have you many dogs that are much scarred from fighting?—None.
    313. Do you mean that no scar ever occurs in the fight?—No.
    314 Are the Committee to understand you to say, with regard to scars, that the dog, not immediately after fighting has no scar, but that the dog on recovering from his fight has no scar?—None at all; for immediately after they have done fighting they are put into a warm bath and given beef tea, if they want it; some do not want it; sometimes if a dog is a little exhausted we give him a drop of brandy and water, and then give him some beef tea, and then put him in a warm bath, and afterwards into a clean bed of straw, and then put him before the fire and dress his wounds.
    315. Have you ever had a dog killed in a fight ?—No, I have had only one kiljed, and that was in a fit.
    316. Had you never one that you were obliged to kill afterwards, because he was so much injured in the fight?—No, because it is so now, that if the dog is put to, he has no occasion to fight without he likes ; if he goes away from his dog, he is immediately picked out, and put in the corner, and then he is spunged out, and given some drink to, and then there is an umpire, and there is one minute time given; if the dog refuses to go when the time has expired of the. minute, he is declared the loser, and then taken away.
    317. Do you mean that a dog that fights badly does not get very often injured ?—No, because if he fights badly he is taken away.
    318. In short, if a dog shows no pluck, he is not injured by the dog that shows pluck ?—No.
    319. But it never happens that a dog is so injured that you have to kill him afterwards?—No.
    320. What is the system of training dogs to fight?—We generally physic them and bleed them; and then we take them to the fields with a strap and collar, and never let them loose till they get to the fields, and then let them run about, and afterwards bring them home and feed them.
    321. How long does it take to train a dog?—A month; they are fed with shins of beef.
    322. Is it? only one species of dog that will fight?—Yes, the bull-dog.
    323. You consider that that is a species of dog adapted to fight ?—Yes.
    324. What induces you to come here and give evidence before this Committee?—I have been asked to come here to explain things about dogs, how they are fed.
    325. You are not paid for coming forward?—No.
    326. But you have a direct interest in coming forward, have you not?—Yes
    327. You have been told that there is a Bill going on against dog-pits, and you have been asked to give your evidence respecting it?—Yes.
    328. You have no other fighting at your dog-pit, no cock-fighting?—No.
    329. Do you know much upon the subject of cock-fighting?—Yes, I have seen cock-fighting.
    330.. Have you heard of some of the great people of the land being patrons of it?—Yes, lords.
    331. Have you heard of Lord Darnley and Lord Anson being patrons of them?—Yes.
    332; And also Sir Harry Goodrich?—Yes.
    333. Did it never happen that a felon was taken up and arrested in your pit at dog-fights ?—Never; I can be upon my oath I never allow such persons.
    334. You can swear that, to the best of your recollection, no offence ever happened at the pit to oblige you to call in the police, or that led to any violation of the law ?.—Never.!
    335. It is an orderly pit in general5—Yes, I can call every neighbour within a mile of the place to swear to that.
    336. Should you have any difficulty in getting up a petition from your neighbours in favour of this?—Not the least.
    337. And you allow no cruelty to be practised in it?—No; the dogs are in a clean stable, and well fed; kept cleanly every day.
    338. You said that the dog Billy was not injured in fights; how did he lose his eye?—He lost his eye by fighting.
    339. But you said just now that no dogs were ever injured by-fighting?—I could not speak as to a mere speck, but I mean what is called cruelty, such as tearing them to pieces.
    340. You do not call a loss of an eye an injury?—He did not lose it, he lost the sight of it.
    341. Are you sure there are no more pits than those which you have mentioned?—I am not aware of any.
    342. But whether there are or not you cannot say ?—I cannot say.
    343. All that you know is that there are five pits that you know of ?— Yes.
    344. But there may be a great number besides that you have no knowledge of?—Yes, but I should know them, I dare say, if there were any more.
    345. Did you ever hear that the fighting brought on hydrophobia?—No, I never did.
    346. Did you ever hear of a veterinary surgeon in this city, of the name of Youatt; did you ever hear that he states distinctly that the hydrophobia is extended in this country by the dogs being highly trained, and in that state of excitement being brought to fight one against another?—I have heard that he has stated it so, but I can deny it, and likewise many more; he has never had the experience that I have. I have been bit by fighting dogs in my face and hands, from teasing them, and so on. I say that of all the dogs that are mad, no man can come forward as long as ever I live and say that those are fighting dogs; it is those dogs that run about the streets loose and pick things up on the road, and run after the females, licking all kind of filth and dirt, that go mad.
    347. You have never been abroad, have you ?—No.
    348. Therefore you know nothing of dogs of other countries ?—No.
    349. You say that bull-dogs are the only fighting dogs; do you mean to say that, terriers are never bred to fight against each other ?—Never; I never knew a terrier that would take to fighting without he was bred by a bull-dog and a terrier; the Scotch terriers are bred of the bull-dog and the terrier, and they will fight.
    350. You have stated just now that the dogs were not the worse for fighting, but did you not say that when the fight was over you laid them by the fire because they were so much exhausted by the fight ?—We always do that.
    351. Are they so much exhausted as not to be able to move?—No, but we generally make it a rule to give them that; many dogs walk after having fought; many gentlemen take their dogs home with them that have fought.
    352. You stated that your pit is chiefly intended for dog-fighting; do no other animals fight in that pit than dogs ?—Not at all, except the badger h baited.
    353. How often will one badger be baited ?—It will be baited on the Monday night, and then he will rest for the week.
    354. How long will he live in this manner ?—I had a badger which lived for two years, and I took nine pounds of fat off him afterwards.
    355. You have no bears baited?—No.
    356. How do you fasten the badger ?—We do not fasten him ; we put him in a box, and there may be as many as five or six dogs that go in, and never can get him out. We do this because they should not be hurt; that if the dog lays hold on him he should pull him out easy; but in the country they dig holes, and the dog stays in for ten minutes or a quarter of an hour.
    357. Do you mean to say, generally speaking, that those fighting pits are not assemblages of improper and loose persons ?—Yes; I mean to say that they are not.
    358. Are they not so in general ?—No; I can speak of my own.
    359. Do you mean to say that, to the best of your knowledge and belief, loose persons and persons of bad character do not make it the custom to attend those pits ?—They do not.
    360. What sort of people attend ?—Tradespeople.
    361. What do you get from each person ?—Sixpence.
    362. Every body that pays sixpence you admit?—Yes, generally.
    363I You will not allow any person you do not know ?—I will not allow any loose sort of people into my place.
    364. You mean to say that if any reputed thief came to the door and offered his sixpence you would kick him out?—Yes, I would send him away.
    365- But if a man comes and offers sixpence, if you do not know him personally, you let him in, do you not ?—Of course, a decent sort of person I do not object to.
    366. What you mean to say is, that the general character of the persons is apparently respectable ?—Yes.
    367. Is there much bull-baiting in London now ?—None that I know of.
    368. Who gave the last Silver Collar; was it an Honourable Member of this House ?—I believe it was; I am sure I cannot tell.
    369. How often, upon the average, does a fight take place at your pit ?— Sometimes not for a month.
    370. And when it does take place, how many dogs fight upon an average?— Two.
    371. Is there only one fight?—There is only one fight.
    372. Do you mean to say that people come there and pay sixpence in order to see two dogs fight?—Yes.
    373. How does the pit answer to you, if you only have fights once a month? —Those are matches that I speak of; we have fights twice a week.
    374. Have you never a dog so disabled in the fight that it will not do to fight it again ?—Never.
    375. Do you mean to say, that his legs are never bit, or his tongue bit,or his nose bit so severely as to disable him from fighting again ?—No he gets disabled for a time from the bites, but we get him well again.
    376. How long do your fights last?—Sometimes they do not last ten minutes, sometimes half an hour.
    377. And yet although they sometimes last half an hour, you never have a dog seriously injured in those fights ? — No; I have known fights last an hour, and yet the dogs not get injured.
    378. How many matches are there in your pit in the course of a year ?— Eight or ten matches.
    379. How many dogs fight in the course of a year?—I cannot say.
    380. How many in the course of a week ?—Four or five couples.
    381. You would allow any dogs to fight that were brought to the pit?— Yes.
    382. You weigh the dogs in order to see that they are equal ?—Yes, they do not give each other an ounce ; they are put on the scale and weighed exactly.
    383. If one dog is heavier than the other, how do you remedy that ?—We fight only stipulated weight; we know pretty well from the size how to match them equally, because there is no person that sees one dog but will know whether the other will match him.
    384. How many dogs are sent by you on board ships for captains going abroad ?—A great quantity.
    385. For what purpose do they take them ?—I do not know; they come there and see the dogs, and try them, and then oner me a sum for them, and I sell the dog.
    386. When you say they try the dog, you mean they put him against another dog ?—Yes they put them together.
    387. Does a gentleman, when he comes to you to buy a dog, say to you, "Let me see his power," before he will buy him?—'Yes.
    388. And he gives you more or less according to the power of that dog?— Yes.
    389. Will you explain to the Committee how you bring the dogs to an equal weight?—We know the size of them pretty well, and then we take them out into the fields and run them about, and when we bring them home we weigh them.
    390. Do you try to make the light dog heavier, in order to match him with the other ?—No; we can generally tell their weights; if a gentleman comes to me and brings a dog, I say, it is such and such a weight; then he says, "Have you one of such a weight?" and if I have I match them.
    391. How many dogs have you now belonging to you?—Six or seven, I keep them for different people, I do not keep them for myself, but I keep them for gentlemen, and doctor them.
     
  3. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    William Hemmings, called in ; and Examined.

    392. Are you a feeder of dogs ?—Yes, I am.
    393. Living in the Commercial Road ?—Yes.
    394. Have you constant communication with gentlemen upon the subject of a6 June, dogs?—Yes; I am a dog doctor and dog fancier.
    395. You sell dogs, do not you?—Yes.
    396. What sort of price do fighting dogs fetch ?—That is according to the goodness of them. ,
    397. It varies from what sum to what?—From one guinea to twenty.
    398. Have you known a dog sell for twenty ?—I have sold them for twenty; and I have sold young ones for ten, good breeders.
    399. Do you happen to know at all whether fighting dogs will fight many battles or few battles; how many battles will they fight?—It is according to the constitution of the dog.
    400. Have you known some dogs fight a good many?—I have.
    401. How many battles have you known a dog to fight?—I have one that fought seven battles.
    462. Is that dog in good condition now?—Yes.
    403. And you attach considerable value to him ?—I do; now she is put by on purpose to breed from.
    404. You put this bitch by to breed from, although she has fought so many battles ?— Yes; as she is such a good bitch her puppies will fetch me a good deal of money.
    405. How many fighting pits are there in London ?—Four; John Roach's, Jem Cox's, William Weatherhead's, and George Clark's.
    406. Do not you know of any other pits in London ?—There is one of a young man attempting to begin, but I do not call that a pit, because I have never fought a match there; it is close to Roach's. I think it would be of no service to him.
    407. Are you aware of any fighting pits at Deptford ?—Yes, there is one at Deptford.
    408. Can you state to the Committee whether those pits have increased in number or decreased of late years ?—Decreased; there were men that used to be in full play with them; gentlemen used to patronize them.
    409. What broke that up ?—A gentleman got a parcel of ladies to sign a petition against them.
    410. What is a pit worth to a man now ?—It depends upon the luck of a man.
    411. If a man is a lucky man, how much is it worth to him ?—I should think it was worth about a guinea a week.
    412. Have you ever heard it said that fighting dogs are more apt to go mad than other dogs ?—As different as light from darkness is that; I never heard of a fighting dog going mad.
    413. What class of dogs do you imagine most likely to go mad ?—The dogs that run about in the streets, cur dogs ; I never saw any fighting dogs go mad; I have seen curs go mad.
    414. Will you tell the Committee whether, from your experience of dogs, you imagine it would be possible to make a fighting dog out of any other dog than the bull species?—Bull-dogs are not all fighting dogs; but if it is the bull mixed with a terrier that is the best sort.
    415. You cannot make a dog fight that has no inclination to fight ?—No.
    416. That is beyond your skill, is it not?—Yes. . ,
    417. And you consider yourself a doctor of great experience ?—Yes, I have had great experience.
    418. Do you consider that great cruelty is practised at those pits ?—No, because if the dog turns away he is picked up immediately; the dog must go to the fight of his own accord, or the fight is over.
    419. Are you in the habit of frequenting those pits yourself?—Yes.
    420. Have you ever heard of any robberies being committed there?— Never.
    421. Have you any knowledge of the class of people that frequent those pits?—Yes.
    422. You know them to be what is called sporting gentlemen ?—Yes.
    423. Have you any knowledge of cock-fighting?—Yes.
    424. You know that that is very much patronized by the higher orders ?—Yes.
    425 There used to be bull-baiting some years ago ?—There was.
    426. Did not Lord Lowther gave a silver collar upon one occasion ?—Yes,he gave many silver collars.
    427. According to your idea, except the wound that the dogs might get in the fight, they are treated with the greatest care and the greatest humanity? —Yes, I can answer for that.
    428. How long does it take you to train a dog for fighting ?—A month, if a dog is in good condition when I receive him.
    429. You said that one dog had fought seven fights, and that was a very good constitution ?—Yes, and I dare say she could fight seven more.
    430. How many fights would a common dog fight?—He is fit for nothing if he has not a good constitution.
    431. Why might they not fight thirty or forty battles ?—They would never live long enough.
    432. What age was the dog Billy when he died?—I cannot tell, but I should think he was twenty years old.
    433. You are a dog fancier; when dogs are hurt in fighting, do you attend the bad cases as well as the good cases?—Yes; I never neglect them ; if I did I should lose my business.
    434. When they are seriously injured, what kind of wounds do they generally have?—They bite one another; if the one is a better breed than the other, he is done with, he is not good, and then he will do to go abroad; hundreds and thousands do that.
    435. The dog is never so injured by a fight that you are obliged to kril it afterwards ?—No, I would engage to cure any dog after a fight.
    436. Do you think that a dog is never so injured, that he cannot fight again? —No.
    437. Do you mean that a dog does not ever die from the effects of a fight, or that he is never so much injured that he cannot fight again ?—No.
    438. What are the worst kind of cases of fighting dogs ?—That is when they fight a long while.
    439. And then sometimes they are seriously injured?—Yes; some dogs will fight for a long time, and others for a short time.
    440. But in cases where dogs are seriously injured you attend them ?—I do.
    441. What induced you to give your evidence before this Committee; were you asked to come up and give your evidence ?—I came to give the Committee satisfaction upon the subject.
    442. Were you asked to do so; did anybody mention to you that there was evidence to be given here ?—I had heard that there was to be a meeting here; I gave myself the trouble, because I found it to be my interest, to go to John Roach, and ask him to come up. I said to him "Will you go with me to give evidence before the Committee ?" and he said, " Yes, I will."
    443. In fact your business as a dog doctor would be injured if this Bill were passed ?—That is the very thing.
    444. You received no money for coming here ?—No.
    445. You have had great experience of dogs; what complaints do you find dogs most frequently die of?—That I cannot say.
    446. You are not in the habit of curing other dogs than fighting ones ?— Yes; I have got spaniels now at home belonging to ladies.
    447. Is not the general disease an enlargement of the liver ?—Yes; a dog very often dies from being over-fed.
    448. How do you account for the decrease of the pits which you have stated has taken place ?—I have done with mine; I found there was very little benefit from it.
    449. Was it considered a nuisance by the neighbourhood ?—No.
    450. Have you ever heard that any of those pits were considered a nuisance? —No; respectable people live all round them.
    451. You stated that you were a doctor of dogs; do you know a Mr. Youatt, a veterinary surgeon ?—I do not know him; but I have heard of the name.
    452. Did you ever hear that he has stated distinctly that the hydrophobia in this country is brought on by fighting dogs?—I never heard that he did so.
    453. And in your estimation it does not arise from fighting dogs ?—No-; because a fighting dog is taken out every day in the fields, and fed well.
    454. Can you account for that disease being so much more prevalent in this country than in other countries?—No, I cannot.
    455. You are aware that hydrophobia does prevail to a great extent in this country ?—There is an oration put abroad about it; but I have not seen a mad 1—
    dog this season, and I have not seen or heard of any person that has seen one.
    456. You said that the pits with which you are acquainted were frequented by individuals; are those respectable individuals or other individuals?—Yes, respectable.
    457. How do you know that they are respectable?—Because I am convinced that they are ; gentlemen and tradesmen.
    458. How do you know but that they are pickpockets and thieves?—Pickpockets do not come to such places.
    459. How do you know, unless you are acquainted with all the persons that attend your pit, whether some of the persons are not pickpockets,?—I know them by sight.
    460. But you would not refuse admission to a stranger if he paid his 6d. ?—No.
    461. You state that it is no great exertion for a dog to fight, and yet your dogs never fight more than once in one year; that none of the dogs you were acquainted with ever could fight more than once in the year; what is the reason that they do not fight more frequently ?—I do not fight them; but I have my dogs for breeding more than for anything else, and if I was to fight them it would injure them for breeding.
    462. You stated that that bitch which fought seven battles fought twice in one year; did you breed her at that time?—Yes; I never want them to fight more than twice; they could fight six times a year if I wanted them to do it.
    463. You have stated that you seldom, if ever, made your dogs to fight more than twice in one vear; is that because it requires a good deal of preparation and a good deal or care of the animal after the fight is over, and because it is impossible that this can take place without a good deal of time being occupied, and also a great deal of suffering on the part of the dogs ?—No, it is not from that.
    464. That is your system, not to fight your dogs more frequently; but other dog fanciers and dog doctors pursue a different system?—Quite different.
    465. You say that you keep those dogs for the purpose of fighting; if you can fight a dog once a month or twice a month instead of once a year, why, do you not keep fewer dogs and do that ?—I keep a dog or two, or a bitch or two, and they are very valuable; and I am a poor man, and therefore it suits me better to take in dogs of gentlemen than to keep dogs of my own.
    466. Why do you not fight them oftener ?—Perhaps you cannot get a match for them; my bitch was Kept for two years and could not get a dog to fight against her.
    467. That may happen in particular cases, but must not that be very rare? —There are very few old fanciers but what have got good dogs in the profession, who are open to fight.
    468. You think it, do you not, impossible, that if fighting dogs were in* clined to go mad, you should be ignorant, of the fact ?—Indeed I do.
    469. You know a little about cock-fighting ?—Yes.
    470. Is the training of cocks for fighting more cruel than the training of dogs ?—Yes, decidedly so.
    471. The training of dogs is cruel too, is it ?—No, I think there is no cruelty in training a dog, in taking a dog out into the field, if you take the best care of him for fear of losing him.
    472. What description of dog, generally speaking, of those which have come under your observation, is that which is most likely to become mad ?— I think it is the dog that runs about the street, and picks up mud and dirt j I never saw a fighting dog that ever went mad.
    473. You seem to doubt the fact, that madness is so prevalent as the people in general think it to be ?—I do j I saw a dog myself this time twelvemonth; the dog was no more mad than I was mad; a parcel of people drove him from his master, and then said " There goes a mad dog! there goes a mad dog I'* he ran away from them into a stable, and I went down stairs, and I saw the actions of the people in the street, and I said "The dog is not mad and I went to the stable to him, and as soon as he saw that I was going to treat him kindly he wagged his tail and was quite quiet.
    474. Those fighting dogs give considerable sport to the people who go to the pits ?—Yes, as much as any other sport.
     
  4. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    WILLIAM ALEXANDER MACKINNON, ESQUIRE, In The Chair.

    Mr. William Youatt, called in; and Examined.

    475. What is your profession ?—A veterinary surgeon.
    476. Where do you reside ?—No. 3, Nassau-street, Middlesex Hospital.
    477. Are you a member of any college?—I am Lecturer on Veterinary Medicine at the University of London.
    478. Have you witnessed any of those dog-fights, or have any come under your own knowledge ?—I have been twice, and twice only, at dog-fights. I had a young man who was behaving very badly, and I went to see what kind of place it was; for he used to go to it.
    479. In your opinion is it a cruel sport or not?—The public meeting was not; there was no cruelty; I can hardly call it a cruel fight; and there was a great deal of apparent fairness about it; but the private meeting was cruel.'
    480. Were the dogs much lacerated?—A dog was killed at the private meeting.
    481. Then, in your opinion, a good deal of cruelty does arise in the private fights, but not much in the public fights ?—So far as my personal experience goes, I can speak to those two evenings, and those only; but if I were asked with regard to the accounts which I have had from persons that bring me their dogs from those places, I believe I could give an opinion made up of that; but otherwise, of my own personal experience, I could not go beyond those two nights.
    482. Do you believe the dogs are much lacerated and torn in those fights?— There is no doubt that at every contested fight they are very much so.
    483. Do you believe they are generally improper and bad characters who assemble in those pits ?—I have no doubt of that.
    484. You consider, therefore, that the continuance of those pits is injurious to the morals of the community ?—I am sure of it; 1 have a thousand proofs of that.
    485. Do you consider that the fighting of those dogs has any tendency, not indeed to create, but to propagate, hydrophobia ?—To propagate it, certainly it has.
    486. In what way; will you state to the Committee?—The disposition to do mischief in rabid dogs depends on the previous temper and acquired habits of the dog; and a dog trained to fight, labouring under rabies, does ten times the mischief of a petty dog, of even a pointer or setter, or even a sporting dog.
    487. Then, in your opinion, you account in some measure for hydrophobia being so general in England by those dog pits ?—No, I can hardly go to that extent; I go on this account: for fifteen years, I believe, I was the only veterinary surgeon, succeeding to Mr. Blain, who practised on domesticated animals generally; and those cases came under my notice ; and I believe I may say, without exaggeration, that more than a thousand cases of rabies have been brought under my notice.
    488. For what period ?—Twenty years.
    489. You say for twenty years; you are speaking of your practice in the metropolis and this neighbourhood ?—Yes, I can speak of more than that; of 2,000 cases I may say.
    490. Will you state to the Committee how, in your opinion, the rabies is increased or propagated by this fighting?—I can only give the answer that I did before, that the disposition to fight depends upon the previous temper of the dog and his previous habits.
    491. That is, a dog that is trained to be a fighting dog is more savage than other dogs, and will bite more ?—A dog that has been trained to fighting will seek out for victims; a petty dog will only fight when he is put to it.
    492. Therefore if those dog-pits were no longer in existence, canine madness would not be so likely to be propagated as it is at present ?—It would be lessened.
    493. The dog-fights have a tendency to increase canine madness?—To propagate it.
    494. You, speaking in your character as a veterinary surgeon, object to dogpits on account of their cruelty, on account of the bad assemblies of persons who frequent them, and also on account of the propagation of rabies which thereby arises?—Yes. . .
    495. You say that you never saw any cruelty practised upon those dogs in public?—I attended two meetings, and two meetings only. I had an apprentice, who, when he first came to me, was a very good young man, but he got bad associates, and became very depraved; I understood that he frequented the dog-pits, and I went to one of those pits in Tottenham-court Road; there was some desperate fighting, but I put that pretty nearly on the same footing with the fighting of human beings; dogs will fight; there was no unfair fighting.
    496. You put dog-fighting on a par with pugilistic fighting?—Yes.
    497. And it is a kind of sport, is it not?—The dogs are disposed to fight, and will fight, and they are trained for the purpose.
    498. You mentioned that a young man, whom you had, became very much depraved; do not you think that the habit that he had of going to those pits assisted very much to his demoralization ?—I am sure it did; I trace his depravement entirely to his going to those pits.
    499. You say that in private you have seen a dog killed; give the Committee a description of that battle that you saw a dog killed at?—It was a young dog; his first trial at the same pit; he would not fight; and what was done that evening, and which I believe is the practice, was that he is made to fight; one dog is set upon him; I understand their best dogs set upon him; and this powerful dog was set upon him, and fairly killed him; the poor fellow did not fight, and would not fight.
    500. How was the dog killed ?—Torn to pieces. • 501. You saw this yourself ?—Yes.
    502. But you say that people have described other scenes to you ?—Yes.
    503. Like those that you have been relating?—A great deal worse.
    504. You say that dog-fighting has a tendency to propagate hydrophobia; do you mean that it is the training of the dog that sends him mad, or is it the natural inclination of that animal more than of any other description of the dog to go mad ?—No, neither the one nor the other; I do not believe that the habits of the dog or the fighting have any tendency to produce hydrophobia.
    505. It is only their nature, they being bull-dogs, that is the cause of it?— No, I do not believe that it is more prevalent in the bull-dog than in any other dog, except that he i3 more liable to be bit than any other dog.
    506. The bull-dog, when he goes mad, is likely to produce a much greater mischief than another dog ?—Certainly.
    507. Is it not your opinion that the fact of the fighting of dogs has a tendency to increase the number of the fighting dogs considerably, and keeps up the breed?—It does so indirectly, as giving a value to that dog.
    508. The fighting dogs that are bred for fighting, crack dogs, and dogs of that description, are more likely to quarrel and to bite other dogs in the street, are they not ?—No, I do not think they are.
    509. Are they not more so than spaniels and dogs of that nature ?—No, I think not.
    510. Do not you conceive that lap-dogs and pet dogs are liable to go mad more so than other dogs?—I do not believe any dog goes mad except he is bitten; I believe that the disease is propagated by the bite of a rabid animal, and that only.
    511. That must originate somewhere?—So did other diseases, the small-pox and others.
    512. You mean that a long interval of time may elapse between the moment at which madness may he caught and that when it again appears; do you mean to say that the disease lies dormant?—The disease undoubtedly lies dormant for an indefinite length of time, from three weeks to six or eight months.
    513. You are decidedly of opinion that if a dog unbitten gives at all the appearances of hydrophobia, he will not go entirely mad ?—Yes.
    514. Do you lay that down as a proposition?—Yes.
    515. You stated that you have been only twice in dog-pits ?—Yes.
    516. You stated to the Committee that on one occasion it was at a public,
    and on another it was at a private meeting ?—Yes.
    517. Will you have the goodness to explain to the Committee the difference between a public and a private meeting ?—A private meeting is for badgerbaiting and those fights which are not permitted to come before the public, for the purpose of trying young dogs as much as anything.
    518. Do you know on what ground those exhibitions are not made public?— The conclusion that I should draw from what I saw that night would be from the barbarity.
    519. You believe that the proprietors conceive that if that barbarity was made public, it would be the subject of legal process?—The conclusion that I draw is from one fact only, but the conclusions that have been forced upon my mind from the facts that have been stated to me year after year are, that if one-half of the barbarity that is practised in these meetings came before the public, they could not be suffered to exist.
    520. Had you any difficulty in getting admission to those meetings ?—I went through the medium of a groom who attended those pits, and was as bad, I believe, as most of them.
    521. Do you believe that you would have had any difficulty in gaining admission if you had not gone with him ?—I think not.
    522. You are not aware what the regulations are, of the public and private meetings, in those places ?—No, I am not.
    523. The Committee understand you to say that your opinion is, that no dog goes mad unless that dog be bit ?—Yes.
    524. Does it not follow from that circumstance that all dogs have an equal chance, either the small spaniel or the bull-dog, of going mad ?—It depends upon his exposure to the only cause of madness, whether he goes out a good deal or unprotected.
    525. The nature of the dog has nothing to do then with his liability to going mad ?—I think not.
    526. You have stated that you have observed in the course of a practice of twenty years, 1,000 cases of rabies?—More than that a great deal.
    527. Are all the cases that occur recorded in medical works?—No, not onetenth; with regard to dogs, the cases of rabies recorded are very few.
    528. Are there not an amazing number of cases recorded in the Philosophical Transactions, and in the Edinburgh Medical Journals?—There are cases recorded, but not many compared with the whole.
    529. In the eleventh volume of the Edinburgh Medical Journal, there is a case of Sophia Steerman; she was bit by one of two dogs fighting with each other, and died; this occurred at Bremen ; and in the first volume of the Medicalsurgical Transactions, in page 136, of a man bitten by a little dog, which he was setting on to fight, and which attempted to bite his master, and did bite him, and his master died?—I should say with regard to the first of those two cases, that the history of the dogs would explain the result whether they both died after they were separated; I am not acquainted with the cases, but the simple fact of the dog being dead, would render it likely that he was rabid.
    530. Are dogs trained for fighting abroad ?—Not so much, I believe; they are too much now, I believe, in Paris,
    531. Is hydrophobia confined to this country?—No; it does not exist in a great many countries.
    532. Do the foreign medical works contain a great many entries of this disease ?—The French and German works contain a great many.
    533. Then you state your impression is, that dogs are not trained for fighting dogs on the Continent? — Not so much; they are a great deal too much in France, and in Paris particularly.
    534. Can you state, since that has been the fact, whether more cases of hydrophobia have occurred abroad than before that period ?—No, I cannot.
    535. On the whole of the cases of hydrophobia that have come under your consideration, have many been cases of fighting-dogs ?—Of the terrier and its varieties, I should say a decided majority; I will not say that in the majority
    of of the cases they have been bitten by dogs trained for fighting, but dogs Mr. belonging to that breed and its varieties. William Youatt.
    536. Have they not generally been dogs that have been highly kept, lap dogs and small spaniels and small terriers, and that description of dog?—No,not one case in three; perhaps you might say more; not one case in three or four.
    537. What species of dogs have they generally been that composed the cases of hydrophobia which have been under your care?—Dogs that have become rabid of all sorts and kinds.
    538. Have you, in tracing the disease, come to any impression that one species of dog is more subject to be bitten than another ?—No, it depends upon his being exposed to the danger of being bitten, and perhaps to his own natural temper, whether he is quiet or not.
    539. But the more savage a dog is, the more you would imagine that rabies would be engendered ?—Yes.
    540. You have often seen the dogs at the Zoological Gardens; those are chained; are they ever unchained ?—They are not.
    541. Do you imagine that the chaining them would have any tendency to produce rabies ?—I saw two cases of rabies in the Zoological Gardens, which I was deputed to examine into, and could not exactly account for; the dogs were decidedly rabid, and I attributed that to the neglect of the keepers, that some strange dogs had come in and bitten those dogs.
    542. Do you think that the number of stray dogs in the streets has any tendency to produce hydrophobia ?—No further than they are exposed to the danger of being bitten; it might be generated in that way.
    543. With regard to the disposition and temper of dogs, nature has implanted very different dispositions and tempers in different species of dogs ?—Undoubtedly.
    544. It would be quite absurd to suppose that any treatment would make a bull-dog or mastiff as great a pet and as quiet an animal as a lap-dog, would it not?—As far as my experience has gone, the bull-dog and the mastiff are the most harmless of all dogs; it is the mixture of the bull and the terrier that does the mischief.
    545. The mixture of the bull-dog and the terrier creates a much more savagely disposed class of dog than any other class?—I believe so.
    546. How do you account for that ?—I am unable to account for it; the bull-dog, except he is set on to fight, is not a dog disposed to fight; when he once begins, he will go on, but he is not disposed to begin a quarrel, nor is the mastiff.
    547. You have said that to those pits, of which you have heard a great deal, bad company is in the habit of resorting ?—Yes.
    548. In pits where cock-fighting goes on, does the same thing occur?— I never saw a cock-fight, but I should imagine so.
    549. Have you reason to believe, from what you have heard, that a cockfight is more cruel than a dog-fight?—I should put the cock-fight nearly upon a level with the public exhibition of the dog-fight.
    550. In the case of all the dogs that have been brought to you for the disease of hydrophobia, have you ascertained that they have been bit?—The greater part by far.
    551. But not all ?—No.
    552. Have they shown marks of being bitten?—No, I have spent an hour in examining a dog that had become rabid, but could not find the bite from the thickness of the hair.
    553. But most of the dogs that have become mad have been bitten?—Yes; and in the case of others, there was a probability of their being bitten. It is a very difficult thing, except it be a lacerated wound, to discover the wound; you may search for an hour, and not find it.
    554. Do you say that the dogs that are bitten in the glands show any . marks of where they are bitten?—No, I did not see them when they were bitten in the glands.
    555. When you examined them, did they show any marks of being bitten?—No.
    556. Is the mixture of the bull and terrier the general species of dog that is used in dog-fighting?—Yes.
    557. How many cases of hydrophobia have you had come under your observation in the course of a year on an average?—I think three years ago I had from January to June, five months, more than 250 cases, when rabies was very prevalent.
    55S. In your experience does there occur a greater number of cases of rabies among that species of animal than among any other sort of dog ? - To that I am not prepared to speak, because it depends upon their exposure to danger; in my opinion, rabies is produced by inoculation alone.
    559. You are not able to say whether there has been a larger number of that animal rabid than of any other?—No.
    560. But that animal is more savage than others ?—Yes.
    561. And more likely to quarrel ?—Yes.
    562. And of course animals that are most likely to quarrel and bite, inasmucli as in your opinion hydrophobia is propagated only by the bite, would be most likely to propagate the disease?—Yes.
    563. And as their number increases, the disease of hydrophobia would be likely to increase also?—Yes.
    564. Are the Committee to understand you to say that when a fighting dog is bitten he is more inclined to bite other dogs on account of the nature of that dog being more savage ?—Yes, precisely so.
    565. Have you had any means 'of forming any estimate as to the comparative number of cases of hydrophobia in England and other countries ?—No.
    566. You do not at all know what the proportion of hydrophobia cases in other countries is as compared with the cases in England?—I do not; I rather am inclined to think that, setting aside those in the south of France, and likewise those on the northern and eastern boundary of France, the cases of hydrophobia are much more frequent in England than in France.
    567. Have you any experience or any knowledge of the state of hydrophobia at Lisbon ?—Not from experience, but from accounts, I learn that it does not exist.
    568. Will you have the goodness to state whether you know whether the number of dog-fighting pits in the metropolis now is greater or smaller than it was in former years?—I do not know. With regard to the character of the persons who attend those pits, I would beg to observe that the foundation of the opinion which I have given is this, that for the number of years that I mention the treatment of the dog was confined to Mr. Blain, and to me as the successor of Mr. Blain; they all came to us. When a servant brought a dog of his own, a spaniel of his own, or a better man in a higher grade of society brought a greyhound, or a pointer, or a setter of his own for me to look at, I traced him from year to year with the character of the individual who brought him; but the moment a servant brought me a fighting dog of his own, or the moment a young man in a higher grade of society brought me a fighter of his own, I had an opportunity to trace the dog, and I found the servant-man became a worthless character and a beggar, and the young man in the higher grade of society became a very different character from what he would otherwise have been; and there seemed to be an infallible connection between fighting dogs and an alteration of character for the worse.
    569. Your attention has been so much directed to this subject, that this is the result of very careful investigation on your part?—Yes, and of that fact I have no doubt. ,
    570. It is a popular opinion that the dogs of England are of a bolder nature, and more inclined to fight, than the dogs of other countries; do you concur, in that opinion ?—It is said that they have ever been; they are more cultivated and highly bred.
    571. What is your opinion upon the subject?—I believe so.
    572. Are a great many fighting dogs sent out of this country?—I believe there are.
    573. Is that carried to any extent?—I believe there are a great many.
    574. To what parts ?—To France more than to any other country.
    575. Has not the science of dog-fighting been lately more cultivated in France than formerly it was ?—I believe it has.
    576. You have stated that it is more likely that the rabies of hydrophobia is propagated by those dogs who have been accustomed to fight, because their disposition is that of biting, and consequently if once a dog of this description becomes rabid, he is more likely to communicate hydrophobia to other dogs ?—Yes.
    577. You stated, in answer to a preceding question, that this disease of hydrophobia sometimes lies dormant, and breaks out unexpectedly, whether from the season or other causes; do not you think that this manner of fighting the dogs in the pits is likely to bring out this dormant hydrophobia into existence; for example, supposing a dog has been bitten, and that the venom of hydrophobia lies in him, would not the excitement arising from the fight, and the preparation necessary to train him for that fight, have a tendency to heat his blood, and thereby to bring out hydrophobia, if not to generate it?—I imagine it would bring out hydrophobia.
    578. Then, in your estimation, this dog-fighting, one dog fighting with other clogs, would, supposing this latent disposition were brought into action, communicate the rabies to the other dogs, and those dogs being inclined to bite, would communicate it toothers around them?—No, I should not say to that extent; it would hasten the appearance of the disease, but there is a regular course for it; there are times when it takes only two or three days for the disease to develope itself; a dog will not become mad whilst he is in a dogfight.
    579. A dog might be labouring under the disease, and taken into the pit to fight, and then he would of course communicate that to the other dogs?—Yes.
    580. The fact is, that it is distinctly your opinion that dog-pits are very prejudicial to society upon these three grounds: inasmuch as they encourage cruelty in the first instance, inasmuch as they tend to increase hydrophobia in the second instance, and inasmuch as they tend to bring people together of bad character?—Yes.
    581. You have no doubt that the pits are extremely injurious to the morals of those who attend them ?—None, because from my peculiar line of practice proof of that has been forced upon me from year to year.
    582. Is it not possible that one of those fighting dogs may be mad, and that by being produced, and fighting, he may communicate it to other dogs?:—It is possible, but it is only a possible case.
    583. The same possibility applies to the lap-dog or to the greyhound, does it not ?—Undoubtedly, because there are very bad cases of that sort on record.
    584. Which should you think the most likely to extend hydrophobia, the pet dog or the fighting dog ?—There is no doubt", I fear, the dog may labour under rabies, when there is no symptom that will discover it to us; and at that time, whether he be a spaniel, or whether he be a terrier, a bite from him.would probably communicate the disease.
    585. Do not you think that a fighting dog, if mad, is more likely to bite and propagate hydrophobia than a petty dog when mad?—Yes, on the ground that he is more in the way to do it, and from his temper.
     
  5. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    Mr. John Ludd Fenner, called in; and Examined.

    586. What is your profession ?—A Member of the Royal College of Surgeons.
    587. What is your residence?—Penton-street, Pentonville.
    588. Do you know anything about the pits used for fighting dogs from your own knowledge ?—I have listened with great pleasure and attention to the very important Evidence which Mr. Youatt has given to the Committee. I consider that Evidence highly important; he is one of the oldest practitioners in his branch of business in London, and has particularly studied the diseases and treatment of domestic animals. He succeeded Mr. Main, who was the first, I believe, who brought the art to any perfection in this country; I know his practice to be very extensive; I have also attended his lectures, and was particularly struck with those on the theory and treatment of hydrophobia, or rabies in dogs, and have derived from them a great many practical ideas on the subject. In fact, I have little to add to the Evidence of Mr. Youatt already given, in which I fully concur. Hydrophobia or rabies is a subject which of course I have long had under consideration; I am of opinion, in addition to what Mr. Youatt has stated, that the main cause of the extensive and general prevalence of hydrophobia in this metropolis, is the great number of untaxed dogs about the streets without owners.I believe that a rabid dog getting among those, and biting half a dozen or half a score, propagates the disease, at once, to
    all parts of the metropolis; that is my idea of it.
    589. With regard to these pits, you state that you concur fully with Mr Youatt in his Evidence; does it come under your knowledge that any evil results or any nuisance have arisen from those pits ?—Mr. Youatt has had an opportunity of forming a much better opinion than I could upon that point.
    590. What is your opinion as to the results which arise from the pits ?— I think there is no doubt of their being the most demoralizing evils that we have in the metropolis; and moreover, I am decidedly of opinion that a rabid fighting dog is equally formidable with any one of the wild beasts in the Zoological Gardens. I should feel as much apprehension in seeing a rabid bull-dog running about the streets, as I should in seeing a wild beast.
    591. Your opinion is, that those pits have a decided tendency to bring together persons of bad character, are attended with cruelty to the animals who fight one against another, and that they also have a tendency to promote hydrophobia among dogs?—Yes; in consequence of those fighting dogs being of a particular formidable character.
    592. Have you been present at dog-fights?—Yes, I was interested some years ago, with some other gentlemen, in the suppression of the celebrated Westminster Pit.
    593. Was it found to be a nuisance ?—A decided nuisance. The neighbours proved that it was a nuisance; and I went to several of the exhibitions or matches there.
    594. What induced you actively to engage in the suppression of that pit ?— I was acting with other gentlemen, whose object it was to institute a prosecution for the legal suppression of the pit.
    595' What were your motives ?—Principally from the demoralizing evil it had occasioned among the lower classes in the neighbourhood, and the horrible acts of cruelty that were brought before the public, as commonly witnessed there.
    596. And those acts of cruelty you have yourself witnessed ?—Yes.
    597. What were they?—At a fight there were specific sums; five, ten or fifteen pounds betted. The sufferings of the dogs are minor considerations to the value of the money; for often the poor exhausted dog was dragged round the pit several times by his antagonist after he was fairly beaten, and before the parties would agree to suffer the battle to be decided. This I consider to be the greatest barbarity.
    598. Have you seen them lacerated?—Always, more or less so.
    599. Who dragged them about the pit?—The more powerful dog dragged the one that was overcome in this manner.
    600. Have you ever seen a dog nearly killed in those pits ?—They very often die in consequence, but I did not see any dog expire at the time. I have seen him under such circumstances that I think he could not survive.
    601. Have your habits or place of residence given you any particular opportunities of making observations upon the pits ?—None.
    602. Then, in short, the substance of your Evidence is to corroborate all that has been stated by the former Witness, and also to state that you consider those pits for fighting to be a nuisance ?—Undoubtedly; and particularly to mention my own idea of the prevalence of hydrophobia in different parts of London at the same time, arising from the number of untaxed unowned dogs about the streets.
    603. You mentioned the subject of the Westminster Pit, and stated that you had been actively concerned in suppressing it j had you any difficulty in doing so ?—No, a verdict was given us upon the representation of the nuisance from the neighbours.
    604. Was it indicted as a nuisance ?—Yes, as a nuisance.
    605. And you had no difficulty in putting it down ?—No.
    606. The reason why other prosecutions have failed is, because the neighbours have not come forward as witnesses, is it not?—I believe the true reason why other pits have not been suppressed, by individuals has been, that prosecutions by indictment cannot be carried on without considerable expense, and for that reason we feel a great degree of interest with regard to the Bill now before Parliament. We want a comprehensive legislative measure, that will render unnecessary these private prosecutions, by introducing a system which should should transfer them to the local authorities. With regard to pits, we hope in future that they will be considered, in the eye of the law, as nuisances to the neighbourhood in which they are situated; and that the local authorities will" put an end to them. It would require, from a prosecuting society, very considerable funds to prosecute the whole of them; but the legislative object I conceive to be, to have them recognized in such a manner, that the neighbourhood, when annoyed, by applying to the local authorities, may get redress, without the trouble and expense at present incurred.
    607. Are you aware that there are fewer pits in London now than there were some years ago ?—I am not aware.
    608. You have spoken of the suffering of dogs in fights; are you not aware from your experience, that in cases of dog-fights, the same dog often fights seven or eight battles?—Really I do not know.
    609. How often did you attend those exhibitions?—I cannot say; now it is a distance of some years.
    610. Are you aware from your own personal knowledge of the difference to which Mr. Youatt alluded between public and private meetings ?—I did not understand what he meant; in fact, the cruelty I have always found to depend upon the amount of the bet. When I have been there, I have asked what is going on, and what the sum betted. If it be a heavy bet, I have always found that the parties were indifferent to the sufferings, and also to the life of the dog. Fellows betting only 2s. 6d., where the dog might be worth from 10/. to 12/., would take care that the dog should not be seriously injured.
    611. Are you at all aware of the value of fighting dogs ?—No; I am told they are valuable just in proportion to their credit and character.
    612. Although your Evidence goes generally to corroborate that of Mr, Youatt, in one respect there is a difference of opinion between him and yourself, namely, that, according to your view, the chief cause of hydrophobia is the stray dogs about the streets ?—I rather wish to throw that out in addition to what has fallen from Mr. Youatt. I believe that Mr. Youatt knows more of hydrophobia or rabies than any person in London, and the only thing that I wish to add to his Evidence, with respect to the spread of hydrophobia, is my own idea by which I explain the general prevalence of hydrophobia.
    613. Has your mind been turned much to the cases of hydrophobia abroad? —No, I have had nothing but general information upon that subject.
    614. You have stated that you and your friends were engaged in suppressing a dog-pit; how long were you engaged before you effected the removal of that pit ?—I believe it was brought to a trial as soon as there was sufficient evidence; as soon as the evidence collected was found to be of such a nature as would be sufficient to insure a verdict.
    615. Do you recollect how long you and your friends were engaged in collecting that evidence?—1 cannot say the time; some weeks perhaps.
    616. Did you fail the first time?—I really do not know whether we did or not; but I would beg to add, respecting the private prosecution of these pits, that we have found out that, under the present law, if a pit be prosecuted, the parties go somewhere else and establish another pit.
    617. Were there certain funds which were applicable to that prosecution of the Westminster Pit ?—Yes.
    618. Do you think that unless those funds had existed, it would have been easy to carry this prosecution into effect, even though the neighbours thought the pit a nuisance ?—Certainly not.
    619. And there are a dozen pits now in existence?—I do not say that there are a dozen.
    620. How many pits are there ?—I have no positive knowledge.
    621. In the event of a pit being a great nuisance to the neighbourhood by drawing together bad characters, and in the event of the neighbourhood being unwilling to regard it as a nuisance, under the present law that pit could not be put down ?—Certainly not without the outlay of considerable expense by indictment, which no individuals would incur.
    622. You are aware that the difficulty of providing funds is a reason very often why those pits are not suppressed, though they may be a nuisance to the neighbourhood?—Yesj I cannot conceive that any society, if they went upon the principle of prosecuting, though they had funds of 1,000/. a year, would
    be able, by the present law, to suppress them, because if suppressed in one place they would be established elsewhere.
     
  6. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    Mr. Charles Ushemood, called in; and Examined.

    623. What situation of life do you hold ?—In the broker line at present.
    624. Where do you reside ?—rln Mary-le-bone.
    625. In what part of Mary-le-bone ?—In High-street.
    626. Have you been in the habit of attending dog-pits ?—I have.
    627. What have you observed there with regard to the cruelty of the dogs? —I have seen the dogs fight in pits till one has been killed and the other died the same night.
    628. Does this often take place ?—It constantly occurs that one or the other will die.
    629. Then, in your estimation, it is a very cruel sport?—It is.
    630. You have seen dogs actually torn to pieces ?—I have, so that a skein of thread would not sew up the skin torn from the flesh.
    631. Do you mean literally what you say ?—Yes, that it would take a skein of thread; it has been used, and was not sufficient to do that.
    632. Did you ever see a dog sewed up ?—Yes, I have seen part of his wounds sewed up.
    633. How long did it take ?—More or less, according to the wounds.
    634. Did you ever see an instance of the wounds of a dog being sewed up? —Yes.
    635. And in the instance to which you allude, how long did it take?—Ten minutes or a quarter of a hour.
    636. You mean to say, as a person in the habit of witnessing those scenes, that it is the custom to sew up the wounds with thread, and that in some instances the dogs have been so lacerated that it would actually take more than a whole skein of silk or thread to sew up the wounds ?—Yes.
    637. Will you mention one instance to the Committee ?—One was the instance of Thomas Thomas, pastrycook, at Somers Town, and my brother's dog fought against him.
    638. How was the dog torn ?—In all parts, of course; in the course of the night he died, and the other died the next morning; both were dead the next morning. I was not there at the time.
    639. Have you ever heard that it has occupied so long as three hours to sew a dog's skin up ?—No.
    640. According to the best of your information received from other persons whom you can give credit to, what is the greatest length of time that it has taken to sew up the skin which has been torn of a dog that has been severely wounded?—I should think about half an hour, perhaps an hour; I cannot speak exactly, I never did it myself.
    641. Are those dogs so much punished by fighting with each other as by badger-baiting, or by fighting with any other animals ?—The badger will fight more quickly than the dog will; they fight sharper; the dog goes into the hole to drive the badger out, and if he gets his hold he draws him out; but if he does not he will be bitten, and when he has had enough the dog will turn his head round., and there is an end of it.
    642. In both cases you have seen the dog frequently punished ?—Yes; not from the badger, but from the other.
    643. What description of people generally attend those exhibitions ?—I have seen noblemen and governors.
    644. Would you like a son of yours, if you had one, or any person in whose welfare you were interested, to attend those pits ?—Certainly not, because I see the folly of it now.
    645. Do you believe, in fact, that it would be corrupting them ?—I do.
    646. Do not those fights between dogs in the pits very frequently end in brawls and quarrels among the people themselves?—Frequently.
    647. Does it not often lead to drunkenness ?—Sometimes it is too late for that.
    648. But it does sometimes ?—Yes.
    649. Are you a dog-fighter yourself?—No; I have been to those fights.
    O50. But your brother is?—Yes, he has been.
    651. But-you have nothing to do with them ?—No, and have no share in the profits of it; I have had spaniels, but no fighting dogs.
    652. What made you leave off attending the pits ?—Because I did not see any pleasure in the brutality.
    653. Did your brother leave it off"at the same time?—He has left off.
    654. Was he very successful ?—Yes; he won and lost as most men did.
    655. You never had a wrangle at the pit, had you?—I never had.
    656. Your brother had, had he not?—He might have had, unknown to me. 657 What has induced you to come forward to give your evidence upon this occasion?—I was asked to come and state the facts that I know, without any favour or affection.
    658. You came merely to state the facts ?—Yes.
    659. You have attended the pits pretty regularly formerly ?—Yes.
    660. And have been fond of the sport ?—Yes.
    661. And notwithstanding your former fondness of the sport, you come forward willingly to give evidence against it?—I have been fond of the sport, but I am not now.
    662. Have you had any experience in cock-fighting?—I have seen some ofit.
    663. Which do you conceive to be the most cruel of the two, cock-fighting or dog-fighting?—Dog-fighting, of course, because the one is momentary death and the other is punishment.
    664. Is cock-fighting momentary death ?—Where they fight with steel.
    665. You probably can give the Committee some information as to the value of fighting dogs; what price have you ever known given for fighting dogs?—I have known such a price as 100/. given for a fighting dog.
    666. Of course it was very much the interest of the man who gave 100/. for his dog to see that it was very well .treated ?—Yes, they have trainers for them.
    667. It must be then to the advantage of the trainer, and to the interest of die trainer, to take every care of his dog?—Yes.
    668. And they are treated with great care, are they not?—Yes.
    669. Are they not put into warm baths when they fight ?—No, nothing of the kind; they give them as much air as they can.
    670. What was the mode of treatment of that dog that was worth 100/. ?— That I cannot say.
    671. Who bought him ?—I cannot say, exactly.
    672. Is he alive now?—No.
    673. Do you recollect the famous dog called Billy ?—No.
    674. Do you recollect at what age he died?—No.
    675. Can you say how many battles he had fought?—No, I cannot say.
    676. Is it usual for a dog to fight seven or eight battles ?—Yes. Bony was the celebrated dog.
    677. How many battles had Bony fought ?—A good many battles.
    678. Can you at all say the number?—I cannot say, indeed.
    679. As many as twenty?—He might have fought twenty or more.
    680. Is Bony alive now ?—I cannot say. .
    681. But he must be of a good age, if he is alive?—Yes.
    682. And he is only lately dead, if he is dead?—Yes; he is past fighting these several years back.
    683. He is past fighting, having fought a great many battles ?—Yes. :'
    684. You say that you have left off attending those places now ?—Yes.
    685. Were you on the whole a loser or a gainer in those pits ?—I never bet.
    686. Never bet a halfpenny ?—No.
    687. You stated that the chief reason why you left off attending those places was, that it led to drinking and brawls?—Yes; and to a neglect of business besides. i
    688. Do you live now far from any of those pits ?—In Mary-le-bone.
    689. Are there no drinking and brawls in other places besides the pits ?—Yes.
    690. Drinking and brawls will go on, whether in the pits or out. of the pits, will they not?—Yes.
    691. Do you know how many public pits there are at present in London ?—There is one at Westminster; there is one at Bayswater; one at Tottenham court Road, and I do not know whether there is not one at Bow; and there is one in the City.
    692. Have you frequented cockpits as well as dog-pHs ?—Yes, I have been in a cockpit.
    693. You say that you conceive dog-fighting to be more cruel than. cockfighting ?—Yes, because one has a weapon to destroy with, and the other has not.
    694. The one will last twenty minutes ?—And the other will last an hour and twenty minutes.
    695. You say that some dogs are valued as high as 100/. ?—Yes.
    696. Why are they valued so highly ?—It is the breed of them.
    697. What would induce any individual to give 100/. for a dog ?—Fancy.
    698. Is it not the practice to bet very large sums upon such dogs?—Yes, they have bet, may be, 500/.; it would be the pride of a young collegian to get a good dog to fight against another, and therefore he wouid give 100/. for a dog; a friend of his might have a dog, and he would want to beat it, and therefore he would be willing to give a large sum for a good dog.
    699. When they train those dogs to fight, do they teach them to attack the other dogs in any particular part?—-No, not that I know of.
    700. Do those dogs ever set at a bull ?—Yes, certainly they will bait a bull; they are what they call bull-dogs;, those that run at a bull are thorough-bred dogs, generally speaking.
    701. Will it not take the bull anywhere by the head ?—Yes; the dog Bony, belonging to Tom Pritchard, used to do that.
    702. You would call that pinning a bull j that is, taking him by the nose and pinning him down to the ground ?—Yes.
    703. Do you consider bull-dogs naturally a more fierce description of dogs than other small dogs?—I consider it is a natural gift to them.
    704. What is a natural gift ?—Breeding them to run at a bull and to be fierce.
    705. Do you mean fierceness and courage ?—Courage as well.
    706. Do you think that a bull-dog is more likely to bite persons than other dogs ?—No.
    707. -Would you consider a dog to be a thorough-hred dog that attacked a bull at the hind part ?—No.
    708. What are the sort of dogs that are bred for fighting ?—Half-bred dogs, of bull and terrier.
    709. Have you not heard of noblemen and gentlemen giving prizes to the dog that will bait the bull best ?—Yes.
    710. How long is it since you have withdrawn from those fights?—I have had nothing at all to do with them lately.
    711. Are you in the habit of reading the Sporting Journal ?—No.
    712. Is there much bull-baiting now ?—No.
    713. Is it continued in the country ?—I believe it is; I have been about the country, but not lately.
     
  7. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    John Brow, called in; and Examined.

    714. In what situation of life are you ?—I am a labouring man.
    715. Where do you live ?—I live at No. 5, Silver-street, Clerkenweh.'
    716. Have you been in the habit of attending the dog-pits in London, and of seeing dogs fight in those pits ?—I have.
    717. Do you think there is cruelty practised towards the dog in those fights? —No doubt there is. cruelty; but it is not the cruelty of men: to them, but the cruelty of the dogs one to another.
    718. In fighting with each, other, do not they tear one another to pieces and injure each other ?—Certainly.
    719. What have you witnessed of dogs tearing each other ?—There is a foulfighting dog, as it is called by the Fancy, that will fight at the privates.
    720. Do you mean that he will cafch hold of the private parts of the other dog ?—Yes ;-he is called a foul-fighting dog that does that, but still he is a winning dog.
    721. Is that uncommon?—No, it is not uncommon at all; it happens so in general, though I have not for these twenty years fought a dog in a pit, and I do not think I have been in a pit for these last eighteen years.
    722. But you know that that is the practice ?—I know it is the practice in the pits
    723. Used you to keep dogs for fighting?—Yes.
    724. ' And therefore you speak with a perfect knowledge of the fact?—Yes, I do.
    725. You speak the truth, and correctly, as to what passed eighteen years ago? '—Certainly.
    726. Is it the case now?-—It is just the same now as it used to be.
    727. How can you know that, if you have not seen a dog fight for eighteen years?—There cannot be a doubt that dogs, if set to fight, will fight now just as they used to do.
    728. Have you been in the habit of talking with those who now frequent those pits ?—Yes.
    729. Latterly?—Yes.
    730. Though you do not frequent the pits yourself now, you take an interest in them ?—Certainly I do.
    731. If there was any difference in the manner of fighting dogs now from the manner of fighting dogs formerly, you would most likely have known it, would you not?—Yes; I am satisfied that if we set two dogs to fight, they will fight in the same manner as they used to do, they would not do it if they were not set on; and I call it all cruelty; and if you were to take your dog away from doing so, you would lose your money.
    732. You stated that those dogs that act in the manner you have described, that fight at the privates, are called foul-fighting dogs by the Fancy ?—Yes.
    733. And therefore the Fancy would discourage such dogs ?—They would; I would myself.
    734. Such dogs, in places where money is taken at the door, would not be put to fight against each other ?—Not for any particular sum; but I know that they will get an old dog which will fight anything that comes near it, and they will call it a hack-dog, and they will put this old dog to a young dog to see how long this young dog will fight him, and he is gnawed to pieces, may be, eight times a week, or oftener. The old dog is set to tear a young man's dog, because he wants to get him into the Fancy.
    735. The hacks are generally old dogs, are they not?—Yes.
    736. Dogs that live to a great age very often ?—Three years old dogs, and five years old dogs.
    737. Have you seen them older than that; eight years old ?—Yes.
    738. Do not the young dogs pull the teeth out of those old dogs ?—No.
    739. Why do they set these old dogs upon the young dogs in this manner? —Because if they do not punish the young dog, he will not fight.
    740. How do they manage that the hack should not punish the young dog too much ?—We will put my young dog on your old one, and we will take my young dog away when we like; it costs them 1 s. may be; so the young dog goes and pulls the hack dog about.
    741. Do not many gentlemen send their dogs to the pits to be treated in that manner?—Yes.
    742. And you mean to say that the hack dog is let out at a shilling a fight, to be practised upon by young dogs in this manner ?—Yes, I am satisfied on that point.
    743. And you are satisfied that this is an act of cruelty ?—Certainly; it is like putting an old gentleman to fight two or three young gentlemen.
    744. Do you know anything of badger-baiting?—As for a dog baiting a badger, I consider that when a dog goes to a badger, the doubt is not which will have the baiting, because the badger has got tight hold of the dog, and whenever a badger bites, he bites right through, and if he catches hold of the dog by the leg, the dog is being punished, not the badger.
    745. Is there much of that species of amusement going on in the City?-4There is that species of amusement in the City, in West-street, or very close to the City
    746. What other pits are there in the City ?—There is Roach's, and there is Jack the Barber's; they call him Dandy Jack; they are both in what they call Sharp's Alley.
    747. Do you know Roach and Dandy Jack, as he is called ?-—Yes.
    748. Are they good-tempered fellows ?—Yes, they are; they want to get their living somehow or other.
    749. Do not you think that those persons who are the most cruel to others take the greatest care of themselves, in general ?—A man that is good-tempered puts up with an affront.
    750. But it does not follow that men who like to set dogs to fight will be always cruel themselves?—There are good men who take their part in it.
    751. What are the sort of people that frequent those pits?—Brickmakers, in general, to tell the truth.'
    752. Any gentlemen ?—There are very few gentlemen among brickmakers; I have seen gentlemen in the pits, and a good many young gentlemen; I did not ask their names ; that would not do.
    753. Is Roach's pit what you would call the Dandy Pit?—No, Dandy Jack's.
    754. Did Roach always keep pits?—I did not come to answer that question, but he keeps a boarding-house; I believe he is a butcher by business, if he followed his business.
    755. You are a labouring man, a gardener, are you not ?—1 could work a little gardening; I could do anything almost in that way.
    756. Do you keep dogs now ?—No.
    757. You have seen a good deal of cruelty practised in those pits?—Yes.
    758. Have you seen the dogs torn in the lights ?—I have.
    759. And seen them die?—Yes.
    760. Is that a frequent occurrence ?—Yes.
    761. When did you see adog die?—I saw a dog put into a warm pail of water after he had been fighting, and die directly in the man's arms.
    762. Was it the wounds or the water that killed him?—It must have been the wounds, which affected the internal parts.
    763. Have you seen any cruelty practised in those pits, in bear-baiting ?—Yes.
    764. Have you seen any going on lately ?— No, bears are too dear now, from the barbers using them so much, to bait them; bulls are not very cheap, and if they do buy them they will not let them bait them.
    765. A good fighting dog is worth more than a bear, is not he ?—No.
    766. What price do you suppose a bear will fetch?—I suppose a bear at this day is worth a five pound note to a barber; a poor man has not an opportunity of getting a bear.
    767. Have you ever witnessed in those pits, that in order to excite a dog to fight, a tender or sore part has been held by the other dog?—No, I never did; for if I were in the pit, and a man did that, I would be the first man to knock him on the head.
    768. Do not you think the opinion of the Fancy to be against such fighting? —Yes; I should knock a dog on the head if he fought foul.
    769. Are there not printed rules with regard to fair play in those pits ?—Yes, about how you make them to match; if you send two dogs in for what they call a bellyfull, no man must touch them.
    770. Are there not always understood rules with regard to fighting before dogs begin to fight ?—They turn the dogs in and let them fight it out; that is fair; but if one fights foul, you take the Other away, and the man loses his money because he touches his dog.
    771. Therefore, if a dog is trained to seize another in the private parts, you mean to state that it is not the dog which attacks the other in that way that loses, but it is the other dog, when his master takes him awav, which loses ?— Yes.
    772. Do you mean that the dogs are trained by the people who keep the pits to tdke the other dogs with which they fight by the private parts?—I should suppose not, because the man who did that must be a cruel man.
    773. Then you take upon yourself to say that that is not the case ?—l ean take upon myself to say that I never saw anything of the kind.
    774. You conceive that these dog-trainers do not train their dogs to do this? —No.
    775. It is considered not fair if they do so ?—Yes.
    776. But, in point of fact, some dogs do seize each other in this way ?—Yes but we Call them foul-fighting dogs; there is no man that can train a dog, what we call high-bred dogs, to fight in that manner.
    777. You have been in the habit, at some distant period of time back, of frequenting very much those pits, have you not ?—Yes.
    778. You know, therefore, a great deal of the whole practice and nature of dog-fighting ?—Yes.
    779. And is it your opinion, that it is impossible that those fights, and that those pits, can be carried on without a great deal of cruelty; that they tend to a great deal of demoralization, and that no good can arise from them ?—That is what I mean to say.
    780. If you had a son, would you allow him to attend those pits?—If I had a son there I would go and whop him out, for I know it is the first step to the .gallows.
    781. If your life was to pass over again, would you go to those pits ?—No
    782. You would have been a happier man if you had never seen those pits? —I would, and I wish I had never seen them.
     
  8. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    Mr. Charles Wheeler, called in; and Examined.

    783. Where do you reside?—No. 34, Nightingale-street, Mary-le-bone.
    784. Have you ever attended the dog pits ?—I have frequently.
    785. What is your impression as to the state of those pits, and as to the cruelty practised in them ?—There is a great deal of cruelty and unnecessary barbarity with regard to righting those dogs.
    786. Are you an officer of the Society ?—I was formerly, but I am not now.
    787. What peculiar opportunities have you had of ascertaining what really does take place in those pits ?—From having so frequently visited them, both in town and country.
    788. Will you state to the Committee the peculiar acts of cruelty arising from the fights of dogs r—I have seen more in some pits than others, and particularly in one pit I saw a fight of two dogs; I was present for a quarter of an hour, and the seconders of the dogs were both lying on the floor, and one dog was down, and the other had got him by the lower lip of the jaw, and the seconder began striking the floor with his hand, and the dog jumped up, and the dog was lacerated in his lip; it was quite torn up; and I saw that dog fighting for more than fifteen minutes, as far as I can state, afterwards, and such was the effusion of blood that you could hardly distinguish what colour the dog's head was.
    789. The fight was merely continued with a view to gain the bet, was not it? —Yes.
    790. Will you name the pit in which you saw this take place ?—In the Green Dragon, New Inn Yard,Tottenham-court Road.
    791. Is that a pit still existing?—The Green Dragon has been put a stop to in consequence of the complaints of the neighbourhood.
    792. The place where you saw this is still existing as a pit, is it not ?—Yes.
    793. You spoke of the floor on which the dogs fought j is it a wooden floor? —Yes a wooden floor, and saw-dusted over.
    794. Is it the practice for the seconders to apply the sounding of their hand occasionally to the floor in order to encourage the dogs to go on fighting ?— Yes, there are always two seconders in the pit.
    795. Is it generally the case that there is a wooden floor ? — Yes.
    796. Do you happen to know whether that dog died ?—I saw it about an hour afterwards quite dead.
    797. Did you ever see a dog killed in a pit ?—I have seen it in more than one pit.
    798. Have you ever seen more than one dog killed at a time ?—Not at a time; I remember an instance wherein both dogs have died from the consequences of the wounds, and that shortly after they have been removed they have been sponged over and placed in a blanket, and every effort has been made to save them, being valuable dogs, at least, I consider, to the owner.
    799. Do you reckon that the killing of a dog in a pit is at all an uncommon circumstance ?—Not uncommon.
    800. Are there any other instances that you know of with regard to cruelty to dogs, similar to those which you have mentioned ?—I have seen instances of bears being tortured more in one pit than I have in another. The fair way,they call it, is to loose one dog at a time; but two have been known to be let loose together where they have had a ferocious bear, and I recollect one instance of three dogs being let loose at a time upon a bear. This bear always proved itself victorious over one or two dogs, but they over-matched it with three dogs, and the consequence was it was very much lacerated.
    801. Whereabouts?—In the lower part of the head, and all about the head.
    802. Have you seen dogs take each other by the private parts ?—Yes, but that is considered foul fighting; but as soon as that has been done, dogs have been over-matched. When two dogs of unequal weight, the one perhaps SO lbs. and the other 40 lbs., are fighting together, the smaller dog will frequently seize the other dog by the private parts, the seconds will cry out " Foul, foul!" and the fight is stopped; but it is frequently the means of winning the bets, although it loses the wagers. That is done for the sole purpose sometimes of winning the bets, although the amount of the wagers is lost.
    803. Are you of opinion that dogs are sometimes trained to that particular trick ?—Yes, because from inquiries that I have very recently made, only a few days since, of the owner of a pit, he assured me that I must be quite ignorant not to know that before.
    804. Should you have any objection to state who that individual was?— Mr. White of the Bayswater Pit; he is not the proprietor there; there are three of them who have a subscription there.
    805. Mr. White told you then that you must be quite ignorant not to know that it was the practice to train dogs in that manner, to fight at the private parts?—Yes.
    806. From what you have heard and from what has come under your knowledge, do you think that it is a common trick, if a dog is over-matched, to catch hold of the other dog, in order, although he loses the wager, to gain the bets ?—Yes.
    807. Are dogs often over-matched; do they often put a dog of much smaller size against a much larger one ?—Yes, I have seen an instance wherein two dogs have been matched together for a certain wager, and one of them has turned tail, and that dog has been taken away, and another dog put of a smaller size to him, and I have known that dog very frequently beat the other dog.
     
  9. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    TL I aint even gone try to read all that shit...but I may tomorrow..All u can believe 100 percent is what you see !
     
  10. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    And you know what then rest is ? Faith ! so I hope you have plenty of it ! But Hoss it ain't enough for me !
     
  11. kitchener

    kitchener Pup

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    LOL -- some editing might have been the better part of valor!
     
  12. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    No problem, its the actual words of the last London Pit owners, and Pit Bull dog breeders, 3 years before the 1835 ban.
     
  13. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    Faith for what?
     
  14. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    By who of what for what?
     
  15. kitchener

    kitchener Pup

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers


    LOL. Cease fire! LOL -- no need to assume the Americal Division's 360-degree firing position, Tigerlines. I'm enjoying your posts and have resisted temptation to go off topic with so many of the period reflections buried in your bulldog histories.


    My comment about an edited version merely reflected my eyes having glazed over reading through the numbered transcripts above. I found, skipping through it, that every little bit I stopped to read was fairly interesting, and found myself wishing for a Cliff Notes version to capture the center of gravity you hoped to convey.
     
  16. kitchener

    kitchener Pup

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    Speaking of period reflections, I still find your post #33, the Black Country Phil Drabble's missives, to be the most compelling, and I have a question.


    "The only sort that pass muster nowadays (commercially anyhow) are the stocky barrel-chested dogs that happened to be fashionable at Cradley Heath when the standard was laid down."


    I'm writing from the States, so I don't have a hard-wired knowledge of "the Black Country," other than a loose grasp of this area as a heavily-industrialized, working-man's area that was characterized by a sooty existence. Here's my question, what was the town of Cradley Heath to the Black Country that anything "fashionable" there would be so important in the Stafford's history? And who was Phil Drabble?
     
  17. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers


    Lol, thats just my writing style, cant help it,.....not my bulldog history, its THE bulldog history..........theirs no compulsion to read anything......its a record of the last London Pit owners and Pit bull breeders, in their own words, at the time (1832)........a reference to both the Bull-dog and the Bull- Terrier bred for public and private legal baiting contests, as well as the export of them to foreign lands from Britains capitol.......which is the history of both the SBT and the APBT
     
  18. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers


    The black country, was the center of organised dog fighting in the British Isles in the 1800's, Walsall in particular, it was also the place place where the bull was baited harder, truer, for longer than any where else.

    The dogs of cradley where heavier in bull blood, shorter thicker squatter, cradley was a bull baiting town as a well as a dog fighting one.
    Each area bred their own type,and each area was is close proximity, and the Black country was the in the center of Britain, which is why the Midlands was the heart of the industrial revolution,with immigration from Ireland Scotland and Wales. Joe Mallens stock was from the west country and Wales.
     
  19. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    Phil drabble was an authentic black country man familiar the area the dogs and the breeders known and respected by all
     
  20. kitchener

    kitchener Pup

    Re: APBT blood in "old time" Staffordshire bull terriers

    True that.

    Considering the immense importance of class position in 1832 England, who were these dog-men who rated being heard in the House of Commons? "...the last London Pit owners and Pit bull breeders" probably wouldn't have included the illiterate, sweaty tenants that were probably (?) the backbone of both sports, no?
     

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