Old Irish Staffs

With who ? As what?

 

Terriers are COMPLITLY different breed who were crossed to get. The bull and terrier end of.

 

Wrong. In no way is the pit dog, or pit bulldogs as you call them, older than the Terriers. No way !
And I think the term 'pit dogs' was first used with the 'rat pit dogs/terriers'.
Terriers means earth dogs and nothing else.
Hinkles bull terriers were not bred down from fighting stock. 'Working' dogs on the Terrier side maybe, but nothing else.
Just a cheap copy of the original bull x terrier cross that made the pit dogs. The term 'pit' means []. That's why they don't call EBT's EPBT's.
Foundation, do you really believe in that pure bulldog crap ?
Terriers are a product of inbreeding pit bulldogs ?
No no no.
Pit Dog means fighting dog, not hunting dog or bull/bear baiting dog.
And just because there is Terrier in a dog, or Bulldog, does not make the dog a pit [] dog.
Or in your words, the Pit Dog is a sub strain within all those Terrier x Bull Dog crosses, but they are the only ones bred only for the []. Dog vs dog, nothing else. And this is what build up the dogs we have today.
And now try to imagine when 'dogfighting' got started. I'm not talking about bull baiting or whatever. I'm talking about dog vs dog only. Bull baiting dogs and rat terriers did exist already before the 'pit dog' (dog vs dog) was created.
It's easy to believe what can be read in books and on the web, but if it does not makes any sense then it does not makes any sense, I guess. And I for sure don't think you can breed me a Jack Russell down from Mollosser dogs. But that's excactly what you are saying.
And it does not make any sense at all.
Am I saying there is no EBT in the Pit Dog today ? No, I'm pretty sure there is some EBT (and even more cross bred dogs) mixed into some of the early fighting stuff, mainly through Colby and his followers. But I don't like it as much as you do. You believe it's 'true and pure bred' and I just see a cross. Maybe it was a lucky cross, I don't care.

 

This guy said it all.

 

The original bulldog was thrown into the [] and forever dubbed pit bulldog; which come directly from the allaunt which is directly from the fighting dog of gual.. .. Sure it makes sense.. A jack russell come down from the wolf .. as the fighting dog of gaul did.. All dogs are canis lupis on the genetic level when using real DNA tests and not paternity tests dogs are canis lupis .. so therefore they are all subspecies of the wolf. Back to the fighting dogs.. I followed Ch SBT [] winners back as far as they go and compared with all history I could gather even a couple of good books old and with that light blue canvis backing, some of you may know the book. Put all the historians and game dog historians facts together with murals and statues and such.. and knowing that working dogs are named for their function.. Terriers were so tenacious they would tear the earth and yes they came from inbreeding pit bulldogs at some point in history and someone called that dog a terrier.. then they crossed with all sorts of dogs to get wire hairs and all the other stuff.. I think you have skip read some of what I wrote or jumped conclusion because I agree with a good part except the bulldog does predate the terrier < manchester, pit, white etc.. .. I've seen people manipulate genetics to the extreme and done so myself following some old dog men and mushers of old and found both.. There is a way to breed your dogs backward to get the original stock. 7gen ped has 256 ancestors each throwing up DNA code from 256 ancestors thats 20,000 + ancestors donating to one individuals DNA code.. mtDna and DNA go back thousands of years thus... all dogs are canis lupis on the dna scale..

Wolf Species
Dog sub species < Dogs are the first man planned and bred litter, not of nature; for the purpose of utility and company.. wolfdogs F1>
Bulldog Strain < the bloodline of dog>
Familes by breeders < are sub strains.. >
on the GENETIC level..

This is why any APBT taken back to a colby will be "dominated" by the colby .. You want to see an irish staffy???

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=12590

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=79597

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=16128

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=257283

breed any irish dog to a colby or a well maintain OFRN or a nice clouse or just the right buck dog and you will have your irish staffy..

Couple of those dogs have some english stuff in em but they are primarily irish dogs.. Galtie of course is a classic irish staff.. as what was imported from other countries as staffs or terriers or bulldogs the ones that went to work went to work while all others were bred from show. Game Bull Terriers are APBTs and even more they and SBTs come from the exact same source.. Hinkle bred show bred junk with other outs as well so clearly my point of him being the center of propaganda to be remebered as historic fact, did not set in. LOL

Check out that E book ..



http://www.archive.org/stream/newbookofdogcomp02leig/newbookofdogcomp02leig_djvu.txt

 

^^Its like talking to a brick wall ^^

 

The SBT is an english bred dog. I don't even know excactly why they are often called Irish Staffs.
But the Irish Old Family dogs are no SBT's. (?) Or maybe they are, but there is no Irish Old Family within the SBT. SBT's are the original Bull Dog x Terrier cross dogs without the Irish Old Family influence; I guess. SBT's are no APBT. Irish Old Family are no APBT. But mix them SBT's with the OF's in America and you'll get your APBT, if used for the pit.
Colby's Galtie is neither a Staff or an APBT. Was Galtie a pit dog ? Probably yes. Was Galtie an OF dog, or bred down from the OF dogs ? Probably yes, maybe. If Galtie was an OF dog, then there must have been more of the same still around at his time. Sounds to me like Galtie was the last pure bred OF dog who came out of nowhere. Can this be the truth ? I don't know.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...e&dog_id=12590
3/4 Old Family breeding = no irish staffy.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...e&dog_id=79597
Irish Old Family x SBT, bred in the states = APBT

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...e&dog_id=16128
well

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...&dog_id=257283
3/4 Irish Old Family bred dog + 1/4 SBT through Lloyd's Pilot = APBT

Foundation, do you call them ancient war dogs pit dogs ? Is this your original pit bulldog ? Later they used those Alaunts for pack hunting. This is your original pit bulldog ? Hinkle probably was thinking the same, lol. And I guess, the original pit bulldogs came in white. ?? And why the hell people are always doing a lot of crosses to get them true original dogs ?
It's like crossing elephants to goats with the intention to breed the old original Mammut again. How stupid is that ?

American Bulldog = original pit bulldog ?
Olde English Bulldog = original pit bulldog ?
Continental Bulldog, lol = original pit bulldog ?
English Bulldog = original pit bulldog, lol ?
EBT = original pit bulldog ?
White English this, white american that = original pit bulldog ?
Holy cow !

 

This is what I mean the original bulldog is DEAD all is left are recreations and the bull and terriers.

 

you really need to re read the post because out of context you have taken the points I've made clearly... NO all of those dogs are sub strains.. the ORIGINAL bulldog was thrown into the [] and forever dubbed "pit bulldog".. I dont support Hinkle I said he helped ruin the Bull Terrier as a working breed as he show bred and outted to other breeds of dogs as well..

Elephants with goats? .. thats the best argument you got? Thats not very good stance. All dogs are canis lupis on the dna scale.. a goat is not an elephant on the dna scale..

 

Just so you know its hinks not hinkle lmao and this thread has gone wild so to sum up...no there's no irish staffs that look like gull terrs that we no of.

 

this about sums it up , lol
think about it , the Hinks bull terrier is a version of a bull n terrier. the gull terr is a working version (ish) of the Hinks bull terrier or EBT i don"t think Ireland comes into this equation . i don"t mind being proved wrong though. lol

 

the only link to Ireland is that James Hinks emigrated from Mullingar , Co. Westmeath, Ireland to Birmingham , England.
It was in Birmingham England that he decided to develop a strain of Bull Terrier for the gentry of that time, a pure white strain if show bull terrier / the hinks bt / ebt

reminds me of the saying, "you always know a gentleman by his horses and his dogs" (which were almost always white)
peasants / common folk kept dark and brindle dogs which were better for poaching with at night time

the EBT has nothing to do with dogs from Ireland afaik

 

The Bull terrier has never be connected to Ireland ..other than Hinks emigrating to England from Ireland .it was developed by Hinks around the 1850,s in England as a pet ,companion dog, show dog, ...

 

Does this thread have a point anymore?

 

yeah I know its hinks.. I jumped back in to some books to make sure all the pieces fit and realized I mixed his name up with an old family friend also into bulldogs..

Yes.. you all have missed the point.. for your own emotional outburst reasoning..

DNA and mtdna lasts thousands of years ... This is why in the states someone can be 1/64 indian and still get priviledges.. One individual carries the DNA from 256 ancestors, each one of those is adding DNA from 256 ancestors.. making the DNA and mtdna source for one individual 20,000+ ancestors...
IN DNA testing
Wolf is the species
Dog is the sub species
bulldog is the strain or bloodline of dog.
all familys are sub strains

ALL DOGS in a DNA test are Canis Lupis... Wolf...

So yes, the old bulldog is still alive and it is hidden in the genes of modern APBT and working SBT that has maintained that genetic function..
Just look at my dog Turk... I've bred another out of a scatter that actually ties together with snooty and heinzl... Shes a lil one though a throw back in bulldog and in size she is 28lbs. If I can figure it out through coding and yes I went to school for biology and I studied pedigrees and mtdna building blocks of several bloodlines of bulldogs and bandogs.. The modern APBT has all that old DNA just under the surface.. Like I said mix the right COLBY, OFRN, with a irish bulldog or staff and you will have the dogs your looking for.

you want a dog like Galtie or other irish imports?? find the best bred COLBY or OFRN or Clouse and breed it to the best Irish dog .. If you don't believe it .. Don't.. but to argue is to argue with science and the state of how DNA and genetics operate.

Why is the APBT so critical ... because it is the only one that maintained being bred for game first .. everything else just happens to be there.. so the MENTALITY or BRAIN and HEART is ancient in the remaing genetics of pit stock from this era. Its what is upstairs that was sought after and maintained in the traditional APBT.. (traditional key word)

I dont believe your Irish Staffy is dead.. nor do I believe it to be a bull terrier ... unless of course by bull terrier you mean game bull terrier which is the APBT and not the HINKS bull terrier a show bred and mutbred dog.. I brought him up in the beginning to display propaganda and that they were NOT working dogs or pit dogs in the same league from the pit dogs inwhich it came unlike the APBT. Many areas where you guys are shooting off, Im like huh??.. Cause I agree with you however when it comes to DNA and genetics, and bulldogs ... well Im telling you. IF you comprehend without taken one thing out of context and running with it, you see my point this whole thread is.. . Your Irish pit dog is not dead.

 

Irish Staff, as a name is quiet recent...mid 1970s.... all it means is SBT bloodlines from dogs that ware used at field dogs trials... bred for gameness rather than show lines... some of these line have a tiny amount of (English)Bull Terrier blood...other lines have none.... they (the lines that can be checked) mainly trace back to KC show SBT from Uk... there is said to be some with old lines that where in Ireland before SBT came to Ireland (late 1940s) but no records can be found...

 

yes sir.. thats what Im saying.. the irish pit dog is not dead or lost... its genes are lying dormant.. whether your looking for 70s type dog or what I was thinkin a more 1900-20s type dog, but both are able to be found... Like I said; I produce old world style bulldogs.. here is a scatter bred dog that is tied together with Snooty< FitzwatersGoldie & Trahans rascal.. backup with pure shot of heinzl.. The lil girl Im keeping looks 1900 sbt apbt shes 28lbs. This is her sister who is 32lbs.. many CHs and winners up close; I do predator control along with vermin control. I did this to see if it would work if the pedigrees were genuine as the dogs; figured out on with algebra and the punit square.. Bam .. it worked without ever seeing the damsel until I purchased her at 6mos. SO I know you all can revive your irish pit dog with the right puzzle pieces.. your dog is not lost.

 

Getting back to the ????the ebt's of to-day look nothing like the dogs of the early cenutry..l.wells has to prints of bulldog and bull terrier both look a-like, except for head shape etc;etc; but both look nothing like the show dog's of to-day..bulldogs were crossed with diff types of dogs back in the early days some tryed to perfect the greyhound this way ????