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painter type?

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by gypsyboy, Jun 27, 2012.

Page 12 of 18
  1. Lrs

    Lrs Big Dog

    The sbt part of this site is filled with some great threads on working staffs I still go back through threads years old and learn new stuff.
     
    Lrs, Jan 29, 2020
    #221
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  2. LisaWM

    LisaWM Big Dog

    Lrs
    Thank you!
     
    LisaWM, Jan 29, 2020
    #222
  3. c_note

    c_note CH Dog

    That is the perfect looking AB imo
     
    c_note, Jan 29, 2020
    #223
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  4. LisaWM

    LisaWM Big Dog

    C_Note
    I couldn’t agree more has the bulldog type but doesn’t loose athleticism, correct, well proportioned & balanced!
     
    LisaWM, Jan 29, 2020
    #224
    c_note likes this.
  5. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    It is a good looking dog.

    When I was searching way back when that is the look I was after.

    I was going to be the exact person I shit all over. I just wanted one because they looked cool and I missed the old shit eating dog that rode around with me in the truck.

    I had no plans for working the dog, just having one, so I was shopping 'look' more than anything.

    Looking back, my soap box was not as high up as I imagined.

    S
     
    slim12, Jan 29, 2020
    #225
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  6. Southbanker

    Southbanker Big Dog

    The red hand of Ulster was an English bull terrier.
     
    Southbanker, Jan 29, 2020
    #226
    LisaWM likes this.
  7. LisaWM

    LisaWM Big Dog

    Southbanker

    Thank you, not sure how I got confused on that one lol maybe that’s why I couldn’t find anything!
     
    LisaWM, Jan 29, 2020
    #227
    Southbanker likes this.
  8. LisaWM

    LisaWM Big Dog

    Slim
    Yes they are a good looking dog but Honestly I think initially there has to be some sort of attraction so the I wanted it because it looked cool makes sense to a degree in that you see it & are like WOW & interest is peaked. Plus they have the natural it factor (not always) but theres just something there with the Bull & Terriers their intensity, drive, heart & they excel in a variety of sports. If the AB were a man he'd be GSP lol, all encompassing when you’ve found a good one. And yes there’s the Jose Aldo ones where you have to see them prove themselves to where you’re impressed meaning not the prettiest ones necessarily lol.

    I did some protection work with mine had no intention of using them as farm dog but it was naturally there like with the PP. I needed a dog that was civil, had good defense when needed, could go from 0-60 in a heart beat, intelligent, also needed to be handler sensitive & that I could easily out without being challenged in a real high level of intensity situation. I also needed a mid sized athletic dog not a heavyweight where I could handle both dogs at the same time if shit hit the fan. Plus I’ve never had any issues with either the gamedogs or AB’s with kids ever. I did learn never to get rabbits again though.....
    I think both breeds are great!
     
    LisaWM, Jan 29, 2020
    #228
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  9. Soze the killer

    Soze the killer CH Dog

    Ill write back to what folk have said in the last two pages later on sometime...
    @c note @lisa and @slim .....i will rejoin in on this talk im not ignoring any of you folks.just a bit hectic at the mo.
    cnote ill get back on the houndy thing.and slim ill get back on your rear breed what looks like a filla...
    and ill touch on some of the stuff you said to Lisa...and Lisa no not yorkshire but not more then say a hundred miles from there...so great guess just of reading my rambles lol...sundri or sundry ......sundry tasks,sundry dog breeds ex ex..thats all i meant lol.

    All the best guys and gals....great thread.
     
    Soze the killer, Jan 30, 2020
    #229
  10. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Pretty much the same here. If I were to get another 'pet' dog it would be an AB. The Filas worked well for the stretch we had them. I guess it is easy to say that having a dog that barks is maybe 95% of all the home security anyone will ever need....and the Fila will cover that other 5% and then some, but that then some comes with a lot of liability. When they are correct it is like having a loaded gun with a hair trigger, the slightest nudge or vibration and the gun goes boom. The filas the same.

    The fila was a perfect fit for our house/our family. I worked nights out of town. When I left and locked the door I had about 300lbs of holy canine terror sleeping on the couch that would rain hell down on anything that came thru the front door. They gave me the warm fuzzies about leaving my wife and kid to go to work.

    And all I had to do was raise them and feed them and love on them. No training required.

    I would love to get an AB but I don't have the time the dog deserves. The few dogs I have left eat up so much of my time. No one will believe me but once you get 50 there are only 20 hours in a day and 6 days in a week. There is simply not as much time as it use to be. LOL

    I like their look and their ability to do just about anything.

    There is a guy here that has one that rides in the truck with him. Not the best looking dog, nor the best looking truck, and the old guy is sort of rough as well, but they look cool as hell tooling around together. LOL

    S



     
    slim12, Jan 30, 2020
    #230
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  11. c_note

    c_note CH Dog

    That’s the guy you wanna talk to Slim... the guy that looks like he uses what he has, truck and all. Get one from him or where he gets his! Next one I get will be a good middle of the road temperament pup. Not to feisty and not to shy, maybe even the loner pup. Hopefully from the type of guy you described.
     
    c_note, Jan 30, 2020
    #231
    LisaWM and slim12 like this.
  12. Casperworldpeace

    Casperworldpeace Big Dog

    why do you no longer own the filas?
     
    Casperworldpeace, Jan 30, 2020
    #232
  13. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Life expectancy. Hip Dysplasia. Bloat. Being a huge liability.

    They are large thick boned heavy muscled dogs so they simply do not live all that long. I had one to be 9. Most around 7 or so.

    They grow fast and are bred to sell so being dysplastic is just about common place.

    There stomachs are large. They have a huge cavity in the upper GI region. The stomach can roll over and pinch off on each end. That usually pinches off the artery at the kidney and some vets refer to it as renal heart failure. The surgery to staple the stomach to the wall is expensive and they do not give you a lot of odds on the long term success rate.

    I went to a seminar about protection dogs and the Fila was one of the subjects. Wonderful protector of the home and family. Will defend against anyone for any reason so you have to put the dogs up when people are visiting. I was blown away when the speaker said the next thing, "Ever heard of date rape?" "A large percentage of violent crime is committed by someone you know". "What good is that fierce protector once you have lhim locked him up?" .

    To offset the liability you have to put him up which sort of defeats the purpose of having that type of dog.

    He then showed pictures of his sleeping on the couch and then doing vicious bite work.

    He said, "I'd rather be judged by 12 (jurors) than carried by six (pallbearers).

    So in time they faded. The bulldogs were eating up so much of my time (I had way too many) so I had to make a decision between the two. I'm as retarded as these Red Boy dogs, so the bulldogs won out. LOL

    S
     
    slim12, Jan 31, 2020
    #233
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  14. LisaWM

    LisaWM Big Dog

    Slim
    Certain AB lines can be a bit wrangy game & high prey drive but also the defence & civilness of a nasty Mastiff usually not all 3 traits but sometimes depending on lineage. Like with anything research your breeder I find even being in the dog world with the AB for 10-15 years still isn’t enough & a lot of dishonest people.

    My sister in law had a presa fantastic dog with the family but even we wouldn’t go in the house with the dog if they weren’t there, I’ve mulled it over for years if I’d want the responsibility of one & have decided to admire from afar. Not worth the headache & since you mentioned age I’ll be 40 this year & just don’t have the time or patience, I’ll stick with the Devil I know lol. I don’t know much about the fila actually I know the basics with Mastiffs & Bandogges, I follow a guy on Instagram that really seems like a legitimate dogman with an old school mindset. I’ve seen 2 breeders like this in the past 20 years (been out of the gamedog scene for a while so excluding them) one breeder with the old school mind set is my friend Jack of Universal AB kennels straight PainterLeclerc dogs he’s on Facebook & the other is a hunter/PP guy in California, don’t know his name but he goes by Cali Catchers on instagram.

    Also I agree about the warm & fuzzies lol, I’m sure my husband feels the same as you when he goes away. My bitches would fight to the bitter end to save their family, I’ve seen it I appreciate it & trust them with our lives.

    In the end apbt’s, Bulldogs & Mastiffs aren’t for everyone but if you have had one of those breeds it makes the adjustment easier we know what to look for.

    Again as always great chat love to hear your input as with the others but really in all honesty in your retirement you could be the cool guy in the truck with that damn bulldog like lol
     
    LisaWM, Jan 31, 2020
    #234
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  15. LisaWM

    LisaWM Big Dog


    Slim
    This is very insightful, I had no idea. Again thank you for sharing so we can gain perspective
     
    LisaWM, Jan 31, 2020
    #235
    Soze the killer likes this.
  16. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    The Fila can be a great dog, it has a rich history, but for the most part (like a lot of working dogs) the world pretty much passed them by. What they offered as little as a hundred years ago is no longer needed.

    In the past they had a natural aversion to strangers (mastiff like) as they were somewhat defensive and very territorial but they could do work off lead. They herded cattle in the harsh terrain in Brazil. They have a gait that is as easy on the body as any canine and they could carry 'weight' for miles and hours, no issue. They defended the home as well as any.

    Like AB's, as the world passed them by the breeders picked and chose certain traits and used selection to perpetuate the breed. For the Filas, like a lot of the mastiff families, it was the aversion to strangers. As they selected, the defensive drive and the territorial/one owner dog arrived and the prey drive and general working ability was on the decline (like most working dogs).

    Then factor in breeding for appearance only and the angle of decline got steeper and steeper to where now its once rich history, is just that, history.

    S
     
    slim12, Feb 1, 2020
    #236
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  17. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    My buddy and I had Filas from different breeders and we were more into the working bulldogs at the time. Both of us working swings and nights. The Fila provided us with those warm fuzzies when we were away.

    We went to a 'working weekend' and Fila seminar in Georgia about 20 years ago. We heard snickers and saw looks as we were not in the click and our dogs had some flaws that deviated from the standard. We simply did not fit in the click. (if you have ever been around show type people, the click can be iron clad).

    We bombed the Saturday morning show (as expected). We listened and learned. His female, first time ever with other animals, herded a group of goats, actually showed some drive and propensity to herd. He got an award, begrudgingly, but he got it. I felt like my male would have just ate one of them so I chose not to give that a try.

    On Sunday, we did protection work, and his bitch outclassed every dog there. The handler (not in the Fila click) said my male was the best male there and his female was by far the best Fila he had ever took hits from. Bar none. His comments went over like a lead balloon as they were quick to point out where her ear set landed and how my dog had a split lip (mastiff link) vs. having a U shaped upper lip. I was like, "REALLY".

    I went to my first hog dog rodeo and saw AB's and pits and then this guy from New Jersey brought a Presa. The dog caught very well and moved well for a big dog. I had a female Fila that was cat like quick and looked more masculine than feminine and she showed a lot of prey drive, way more than the average Fila. I put her in a field with some goats to see if she would herd. She nailed one like it was a pig and pinned it to the ground. Then another. So for her, herding was out as I ended up buying a goat I did not need. LOL

    I took her to SC and put her in a pen and she caught like she had been doing it her whole life. Showed some skill and desire. Dixiewardog Kennels told me to bring her back again and she could earn the Working Bulldog title.

    My buddy and I played around with her tracking. We had her close to being able to track shot deer but she had a lot of issues with other people so that never really turned out to be 'one of her jobs'.

    I took her to Georgia and she bombed the show. Too many faults. Too masculine. Bad ear set. Split lip. Too muscular.

    She failed the protection test. She would not go out after the bad guy but she stayed just in front off me. When he attacked, she attacked. In that test she had to be out front (as tight as the lead would go) defending. She had slack in the lead and was more of a 'counter puncher'. LOL She failed.

    In the end I would not have traded her for any one of the dogs down there as I have never been able to feed shit that did not do shit. Sort of a my own personal character flaw. LOL

    And at 6 years old, and in perfect health, her stomach flipped while I was at work and when I got home it as simply too late. She died on the way to the vet.

    Somehow she had a gene of her working history that navigated its way through, and maybe it was even recessive, and each of her parents had one. She was a throw back type dog.

    She was bred once and threw 10 of the dumbest, do nothing, can't get out of their own way, can't get right puppies that I have ever seen. I have never seen any set of puppies that did not receive anything at all from a parent. Nothing. Gorgeous to look at but shit eaters the same.

    I think if we discuss the working dogs we will find most are similar in history, eerily similar.

    S
     
    slim12, Feb 1, 2020
    #237
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  18. Soze the killer

    Soze the killer CH Dog

    Nice post Slim.....

    Eerily the same they are..
    the Neos that were crossed with Bulldogs i said about further back in the thread were like that..
    just show dogs,then bred to a hood standard and boom!you got the odd one what would perhaps fit on a Roman artifact lol..but just like your Fillas,a fucking libility.a man, kid ,anything,( exept its loved ones,or whoever chucks it its food) killing savege beast.and crossing them with bulldogs really rectified there savage disposition and there athleticism all the more..i think all them bigger Mastiffs are closely related.and they all got a savege long history,and were most defintly bred down in size down the centurys to make smaller baiting and fighting types..to leave nothing left of the bigger varietys.,, but show veriatys, and as you say a history.
    but its quite clear of reading your info Slim, and when i think back to the loon hood rats who crossed Neos and Bulldogs,that they(Mastiff types) most defintly can be rectified to there correct type..they have all ready been rectifeid to save them from extiction i suppose.and the worlds to small for such dogs now,but it can still be done by some one whos in the right area to do so,and has the desire to..
    i suposse genes dont get completey lost of animals what have existed since time begone.just slumber perhaps, untill some one stirs the pot making them genes rise to the surfus,there for produceing throwbacks simillare to Roman War dogs lol..
    you can stir the pot with any of them dogs, and unintentully as well.were i was living about half a decade ago some loons crossed some Mastiff types like Pressas and god nos what,and two of them mutts got out ate a man!.im serious mate ate a fucking man..the law said something like the dogs had killed the man and eat most of his feet and the top of his head..
    i seen one crazy mutt years ago and it had a fucking idiot of a tough guy owner who,as tough as he was supposed to be,had no knowlege about any dog let alone one the size of a lion with the disire to kill a man..
    i found it more then amuzing when this mutt grew to huge proportions and ate his whole couch and oak window frames.and took over the living room having to get its food chucked at it..
    in apearence this dog had the head of a Sharpi but about ten times bigger,and the body of a small Lion lol.it was also gold in color and looked more then impressive..
    if you google Assubuipals mastiffs from 1500bc or better still,Assirien Mastiffs,youll get a idea of what this mutt looked like LOL.

    The mutt was a crazy mix of the Bull/Neos i said,AmBull/Bull,DDB,and a English Mastiff crossed with god nos what,but had a Fila sort of look to it..
    LOL.
    It looked a dog what garded a tomb,and if Cerabus only had one head he would look similare im sure lol.


    I used to prey for that dog to eat its dumb owner lol.
    i never got my wish...and the tough guy phoned the law and had it shot!
    LOL they was not getting that out of the living room if it was still alive put it that way.so rather the the law rehome it lol.imagine...they just fucking shot it.


    Fucking Basterds pal,as it was a lovely dog.:)
     
    Soze the killer, Feb 1, 2020
    #238
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  19. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I looked into the Bandogge seen once when I saw this freak monster of a dog at a protection gathering. He had the muscles and definition of a well conditioned pit bull. He had the height and the girth of a Neo, the head of a Neo, but his coat and skin was a lot tighter, no excess.

    This dog looked like he was dug up from the pits of hell and he was did great bite work but I thought he was hectic. He was always looking around and certain dogs made the hair on his neck raise up, certain people that approached got the reaction and he did not seem too fond of the few kids that were there.

    I'm sure just like the Fila, he gave someone the warm fuzzies, or maybe extended its owner's penis an inch or so, not sure. But he was a freak of a dog.

    In the game dogs if you look up Big Sam dogs, he had dogs off Jeep, off Tab, heavy Mountain Man homer dogs. He had a breeding where his dogo/presa/corso lookiing dog bred one of his Homer bred females.

    He had 80-90lb 'pit bulls' hanging off the chain after any and everything that moved, dog, man, woman or child.

    He was deeply offended when I referred to them as 'kid-killers'.

    Mixing dogs can get a person to a point really fast, but a lot of times the down side is a huge liability.

    S
     
    slim12, Feb 1, 2020
    #239
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  20. GK1

    GK1 Big Dog

    (LisaWM)”…I did some protection work with mine had no intention of using them as farm dog but it was naturally there like with the PP. I needed a dog that was civil, had good defense when needed, could go from 0-60 in a heart beat, intelligent, also needed to be handler sensitive & that I could easily out without being challenged in a real high level of intensity situation. I also needed a mid sized athletic dog not a heavyweight where I could handle both dogs at the same time if shit hit the fan…

    FYI. Counterintuitive term 'civil’, in reference to handler protection character traits in a dog: the dog will target the human and not the equipment - sleeve/body suit, etc. [civilian/civil = no uniform/equipment on the decoy] Dog which is 'civil' is willing to bite/fight human opponent without equipment, like a patrol K9. It’s genetic as well as trained. This concept may sound elementary but many so-called "protection trained" dogs especially those trained in sports (to include KNPV) may look great with full grip of the sleeve or body suit, but would not engage a shirtless suspect hiding under a park bench. An old school trainer I know is fanatical about this civil training and not turning the dog into a sleeve sucker. Depending on the dog's ability he will train 0-60 protection first, then obedience. Also sounds counterintuitive.

    Although I have not seen any in action, some of the guardian breeds (presa, corso, fila, ovhcarka etc) are reportedly bred civil if true to original form, but tend to be high on the defensive side at the expense of prey. Which makes sense as these dogs are natural property/pack guardians - not to mention huge intimidators. Hard to beat a well bred, medium sized German Shepherd (or Dutch, Malinois) from police/mil lines; crossing with game/bull breeds not necessary! A dog with a balance of prey and defensive drives, high fight energy, athletic, all weather coat - trained from a pup to target the human. Of course this is just my personal preference.
     
    GK1, Feb 1, 2020
    #240
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