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A classic match

Discussion in 'APBT History' started by F.W.K., Aug 11, 2017.

  1. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. Retired Historican

    Report On A Classic Match

    We got “Buck” from Island Kennels when he had just turned two years old. He had already won two contracted matches at several pounds above his proper pit weight one over Aldo’s “Zeke” who later became a Champion and one over Winchester’s “Conan”. He had also won a money roll in over an hour against a 10lb bigger dog which had been reported, but which we disclaimed as a match when we got the dog.
    As soon as we started to work the dog, we could see that he had tremendous stamina and he demonstrated this in his matches. He was a smooth efficient fighting dog who would bite whatever came in front of his mouth, usually starting on the head and finishing a down dog in the chest or throat. He was a great finisher and one of the hardest scratching dogs you’ll ever see

    Our first match with “Buck” was into Tito’s “Tonka”. “Tonka” turned out to be not much of a dog and “Buck” bit him down and stopped him in under 30 minutes. “Buck’s” next match was against Captain America’s “Jumbo Jim”. “Jumbo Jim” was a double bred “Hank” dog and even though this was his first time out, he was hand picked to beat “Buck” and had killed a 60lb match dog in over an hour in his game test. “Jumbo” did the early driving with “Buck” doing heavy damage to “Jumbo’s” head and inside his mouth. By the hour, “Buck” was in complete control. “Jumbo” made an unbelievable scratch at 1.30 but at 1.57 he collapsed in his corner and was unable to go. “Buck” made a very hard courtesy scratch and “Jumbo” died shortly after the fight.

    “Buck” went for his 5th against Rodney’s “J.R.” dog. “J.R.” was a two time winner off of Cooper’s “Weasel” and a sister to Wright’s Gr.Ch.”Jubble”. He was regarded as a terrible biter and had killed both of his previous opponents. At 20 months old he gave up 2lbs and killed the Roof Top Boys “Reagan” a two time winner in 1.30. In his second match he killed Solo’s “Cobra”, a dead game one time winner off of “Angus” in 52mins.

    “J.R.” was a hard driving dog who never gave his opponent a moments rest and he gave “Buck” all that he could handle for 40 minutes. “J.R.” did some damage when he got in, but he didn’t get in often enough and eventually fought himself off his feet. “Buck” did a lot of damage to “J.R.’s” head and indide his mouth and tongue. By 40 minutes “J.R.” had done all that he could and “Buck” took over biting hard in the chest and throat. “J.R.” was handled at 52 minutes but would not go. “Buck” scratched like a rocket. “J.R.” died the next morning.

    His 6th match was against Stephenson’s “Rocky”, a rough young dog from J.J. off of Ch.”Jeep” and Gr.Ch.”Miss Rage”. “Rocky” was another hard driving dog, but “Buck” stayed on the head until about 40 minutes, when “Rocky” started to run out of gas. After that it was all “Buck” and “Rocky” was picked up in a little over the hour. At this point, “Buck” was retired as a six time winner and not yet four years old. He was bred numerous times and after two years and siring a lot of pups, we decided to go one more time into another Grand Champion. A match was made with Rebel Kennel’s Grand Champion “Sandman”

    The “Sandman” fight marked the first time that two recognised Grand Champions were matched into each other and even though both dogs were close to six years old, it proved to be a classic battle.

    “Sandman” came in one pound over 49lbs with “Buck” on weight at 48lbs. “Sandman” came hard in the front end for the first 20 minutes, but then “Buck” slowly came ahead fighting the head from 20 minutes until the hour. “Sandman” caught a bad bleeder in “Buck’s” nose at 40 and “Buck” lost a top cutter at one hour. After one hour the fight stayed even, with each dog taking turns on top until 1.45 when the dogs locked into each others mouths.

    They stayed locked in the mouth until 2.50 when a handle was made with “Buck’s” turn to go. Each dog had only made a few scratches until this time. “Buck” made a hard scratch at 2.50 and the battle continued. At this point “Sandman’s” head and nose were destroyed and “Buck” was getting weak from the loss of blood, which had continued on and off since the 40 min mark. It was still either dog’s fight. “Sandman” scratched good at 3 hours, but after 3 more each “Sandman” took the count at 3.17. “Buck” then made a good courtesy scratch.“Sandman” died shortly after the match.

    “Buck” is now retired for good. We have seen many highly regarded pit dogs over the years, but “Buck” had the right combination of bite, speed, stamina, intelligence and an incredible will to win that made him one of the all time great pit dogs. It took a lot of courage on the part of both parties involved with this match. All concerned are to be highly commended for the amount of gameness it took to set old veterans on the line, with as much to lose as they had. If you have been fortunate enough to own a Champion or Grand Champion, then you will realise what I’m saying.

    Both of these animals had proven beyond a doubt they were of the highest quality. Five time winners in open competition, their owners surely loved them and had a great faith in their ability and gameness. It is a pity that one had to lose. This will go down in history as a great act of courage for both dogs and owners.
  2. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. Retired Historican

  3. stedz

    stedz Big Dog

    was bucks sire really bolio do we think?
  4. oldguy

    oldguy Top Dog

    Rebel's GR.CH.Sandman
    Rebel's Sandman 1.jpg
    Gamepit69, c_note, DISCOIII and 3 others like this.
  5. OsageDogman2014

    OsageDogman2014 Big Dog

    Being a Patrick bred dog, we will truly never really know for certain. I never trust anyone who tells me they are telling the truth this time......
    c_note, DISCOIII, BronerFan and 2 others like this.
  6. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. Retired Historican

    was bucks sire really bolio do we think?
    Ask Pat as he did the breeding.
    Speculation about things you didn't witness yourself is good for nothing IMO.
    Truth and a fact is that old Buck was an solid game dog.

    Gamepit69, slim12, c_note and 3 others like this.
  7. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    Lil tater was bucks sire.
  8. stedz

    stedz Big Dog

    Fucking intriguing though!
  9. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. Retired Historican

    So many times a certain dog become famous and his breeding is questioned instantly by those who weren't there when the breeding took place. Believe it or not, many dogs are bred just like their breeder tells you and also many breeders don't tell the truth about their dogs breeding. Neverless the only thing you have is the breeders word, and if you didn't witness the breeding, maybe don't even known the breeder and owner personally and never saw the dog yourself then you are dancing on thin ice when your question the dog his breeding.
    Finito, c_note, BronerFan and 2 others like this.
  10. stedz

    stedz Big Dog

    Thank you fink,i feel like a chastised schoolboy now.Though i certainly understand and respect what you are saying.conspiracy theories are all the fashion as well i suppose.
    F.W.K. likes this.
  11. oldguy

    oldguy Top Dog

    I always thought people who 'WERE' there wouldn't have to question a dogs breeding since they probably only bred it on the merit of what they already witnessed with their own eyes rather than a pedigree! Two different pedigrees for same dog below.. I'd have bred him regardless of which is correct.. Not because of paper, but solely on account of the dog.
    DISCOIII likes this.
  12. BronerFan

    BronerFan Pup

    .. the same situation seemed to happen with gr. ch. stan the man.. i'm raising a granddaughter of his and before deciding to try that line of dogs, I noticed that he too had two different peds..
  13. stedz

    stedz Big Dog

    IMG_1183 (1).jpg
    BronerFan likes this.
  14. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Conspiracy theories make up about half the pedigrees listed in the data bases. LOL

    It is about as much of the game as anything else.

    When it comes to the topic I think the Mountain man said it best. In so many words, "The only way to tell how a dog is really bred is to win three or four, or produce three or four winners. Then there will always be some 'son of a bitch' standing in the corner who can tell you how they are "really bred". Not a word for word quote, but really close.

    I'm as guilty as the next guy. A few years ago I bred to a dog based on how I "know" he was bred vs. how he was papered. A prominent breeder in the south bred to a Patrick dog three times trying to get puppies. The dog never missed with us. This Patrick dog stamped his puppies. The colors may change but the height and weight and bark was like he spit them out himself.
    I visited this guys yard and he had ten or so dogs that looked and acted and sounded just like mine. Go figure.

    Years later when a lot of that blood was gone I ran into a fellow with some of those dogs. It showed him a having a single shot of the Bolio blood I liked but the timing, the whereabouts and the dog himself told me he was double bred top and bottom on that Bolio dog, just not papered that way.

    I bred to him and got exactly what I thought I would, so that pretty much confirmed my 'conspiracy theory'.

    At this point how Buck was bred is nothing more than conversation. He may be the most prolific/prepotent producer of all time.

    He threw dogs that threw dogs that threw dogs and they still look like him today. A buck dog can be spotted from a mile away.


    F.W.K. and BronerFan like this.
  15. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. Retired Historican

    Mountain Man is a legend.
    The game is a gamble, in many ways,
    I guess if you are a honest to the core you are honest about your breedings, and if you don't want that people know how your dogs are bred then you explain the people that the breeding is a secret one, that's honesty in my own humble believe. Selling dogs with bogus pedigrees is not the right thing to do, if it was a pincher or pitbull the pedigree must be telling the true heritage of the dog.
    Show me the dog, then his papers, that's 100% the truth.


    Attached Files:

    david63, slim12, The Saint and 5 others like this.
  16. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Well said.

    In the interest of keeping a secret so I can win is somewhat a nostalgic thought process, but if it happens, I'm good with it. I just think that is how we justify the heroes of yesteryear hanging papers.

    Most are hung to sell puppies, or to grab on to another man's coat tail. That becomes pretty much a disconnect for me.

    But it is much fun to talk about.

    BronerFan and F.W.K. like this.
  17. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. Retired Historican

    With hanged papers breeding dogs is like rolling the dice in the mud.
    It will setback a person a few years back in time and if he is Lucky …., he will never known the true heritage of his dogs.
    If the dogs are superb he probably don't even care, LOL, if they were not that sound he probably wonders what went wrong, he couldn't blame it on their pedigrees which were looking more then good to him at the time.
    Honesty foremost, just like these dogs are is the way to go.
    Yes Slim your right, it's fun to talk about.
    BronerFan likes this.
  18. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    I'm a Red Boy fan at heart. It may be the most peddled family of all.

    A 'pure' Red Boy dog will sell faster than anything out there. I see so many I would not give two squirts of piss to own.

    I see pedigrees where the last two to three owners bought litter mates from the guy who made the dogs and bred them, basically to recoup expenses/profit.

    My favorite pitch is 32X this or 52X that in a pedigree. That information is as valuable as tits on a bo' hog when there are 'several' breeders between Point A and Point B.

    Good posts.

    david63 and BronerFan like this.
  19. Holocaust

    Holocaust Match dog

    I agree and disagree 1000% with the above post...

    It is irrelevant for say a certain huge name breeder to say there dogs are 40× a certain dead dog(now which "one" of this certain dog there was that is allegedly in theism ped 40x is up to you lmao) then you have that convo we had where I pointed out how SATURATED the ped is with 1 dog and the 30 year later genetic stamping....

    Here the difference... ones a sale pitch based off the principle of the other which is the more times the 1 dog is in that ped the high chances of the genetics of that dog being stronger than any other in the ped.
  20. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member


    But perpetuating those genetics is done by selection. Somewhere between point A and Point B those dogs have to be tested and checked, just not bred.

    52X Red Boy or Jeep or Mayday or whatever, does not mean a lot when 1X-2X-3X is by the guy and 50X, 51X and 52X is by the guy who bought litter mates 25 years later and starting selling puppies.

    I sort of took the post astray but the same goes for Buck. Buck threw dogs that threw dogs that threw dogs but with that said, people had to stand on them throughout to get the Buck dogs that are doing it today.

    That is where the Red Boy family took such a hit. If a dog was 52X Bass or Marlowe or Mims or such, then those dogs would more than likely carry those genetics, not from stacking but form selection.

    The Red Boy dogs just have so many peddlers between the origin and today.

    magnoilaotis, stedz, oldguy and 3 others like this.

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