A loose line breeding or out cross?

CurrentIy I have 2 families of Tombstone/BolioX Redboy/Jocko with an additional 50% Tombstone/BolioX Redboy/Jocko x50%Frisco / Skull. My question is even though they all contain Tombstone/BolioX Redboy/ Jocko, but not from the same individual's ,would this be classified as a loose line breeding or an outcross? All attempts to help will be appreciated.

 

They are line-bred dogs. How tight or loose depends on how many generations. If they have Same dogs in both 2nd generations & closer they are tight , if 3rd or 4th they are loose.
But "Bloodlines are NOT based on Dogs. They are based on breeders".
When a breeder has established 3 or more consecutive generations then he has established his own family. He has changed the course. But if he only done 1 or 2 then he only started in a direction & could loose traits when outcrossed in next breeding.
One sounds as if there is something different. Frisco /Skull which does not make the same dogs but related.
A lot of different families such as Patricks & Sorrells, Cates & Garners & so on have common dogs but are different families.
The % of dogs makes a great difference also.
If that dogs is 50% or more the Frisco /skull or 3/4 those dogs it's a great difference. 25% will give you a total different dog.
Don't matter if your base 2 families are different, once you combine & breed them they are neither one. Line breeding or outcrossed.
They are your bloodline ,using Tombstone/bolio/reboy/jocko/frisco/skull.
A BLOODLINE IS NOT BASED ON DOGS NOR COULD IT BE BASED ON MANY DOGS!
Bloodlines are based on breeders & if not bred tight but containing many of families , then it's nothing more than a mutt with papers. Mutt meaning nothing consistent .
No telling what you would get. Once again they are now line bred but it depends on what generation is what to know if they are loose or tight.

 

I cannot agree with what you are saying about bloodlines not being based on dogs. Of course they are. If you ask me if I like James Crenshaw dogs, I'll ask you what kind or what strain of James Crenshaw dogs. Maybe I don't like the Jeep dogs and really like the Rascal dogs. What if I don't like the Otis dogs, so on and on..........maybe a bad example but you get the idea. I don't want a James Crenshaw dog. I want a dog bred a certain way off certain proven dogs no matter who bred to them as long as they are what I want. I want a certain bloodline not a breederline.

Just because Pat Patrick has dogs doesn't mean I want everyone of them just because he has them. I want them due to the accomplishments or attributes of the dogs. I could go a lot deeper than this but I am tired and I don't want to ramble........

 

Everyone has there own opinions & beliefs but that was part of the basics I was taught 40 yrs ago. I talked to a whole lot of breeders since then who also agreed.
Although I never talked to this guy about it , someone more known shares the same belief as I .
Click on Legend to return to Website. Email before registering. Click here x to return to :: View topic - Bloodlines
Times changed & I along with others see it I still deal with from the beggining see it also.
Even though it may be common place & used often ,( Dog instead of breeder), some of us still share the same ideals when it comes to that. Personally , it was used more by the peddlers who bought & sold other people dogs & used the dogs name more to better the sell.
Dogs can't breed to themselves & once it's crossed it's no longer that dog but something new with that dog in it!
Breeders usually claim there family as there owns instead of a specific dog for that reason.
Make a cross with those same dogs such as jeep back to his mother & it's not a jeep but an inbred honeybunch. Cross jeep with a Hammonds dog & it's neither but a hy-bred with jeeps blood. A dog can get up to around 93% on a certain dog if inbred tight enough but 93% is not 100% so it's still something new with mostly that 93% blood in this case jeep in it.
But if that's your belief so be it.That's just how i was taught.

 

Well, We agree on one thing. Everyone has their own beliefs and opinions.

When one speaks of say these bloodlines, are they speaking of the breeder or the dogs?

Dibo dogs
Redboy/Jocko dogs
Zebo dogs
Boomerang dogs
Hank dogs
Bolio dogs
Dibo/Goldie dogs
Bullyson dogs
Jeep dogs
Buck dogs
....etc.....

Some dogs are known by their breeders too and I won't say that they aren't and that is OK too.

Sorrells dogs
Carver dogs
Boudreaux dogs
and yes you got it.....Norrod dogs...lol..

I don't agree that once a dog is crossed that it no longer can re-produce dogs just like themselves. To say otherwise is foolish and shows a lack of careful observation. Some can be almost clones of their father/mother regardless of the genetic %, especially if they are heavily inbred or line bred. For God's sake that is why we breed them that way, right? To be consistent and carry on the traits we want. Most look for it and strive to perpetuate it and if they pay close attention and are wise they succeed. Of course dogs cannot breed to themselves and why would that be necessary to re-produce like offspring. I am very much like my father in look and nature. He didn't need to %^#$ himself to accomplish this.....lol...he just needed to find a mate. My brothers on the other hand, are nothing like either of us even though they share my exact linage. It goes the same for every other creature on this planet.

I respect whatever anyone else believes and they are free to champion their ideas but that doesn't mean I have to agree even if it comes from someone as knowledgeable as Norrod or Ziggy. Everyone has a different perspective. I always try to keep an open mind but I will always feel I am right until someone can reasonably convince me otherwise. Same as most everyone here...........

 

Good example of careful observation and wisdom.

 

Slim and Osage, its obvious in your writings that you understand lines...
...I try reading Ziggys shit and there always a key word, sentance or phrase that makes me think hes lost...
......Everybodies entitlrd to thier own ideology, but it has to make sense for others to relate, knowledge is a MF...

 

Yes if both dogs carry the blood and are bred, it would be a linebreeding...an outcross means there is no immediate commen factors in the pedigree...
So ziggy dont loose you Thunder, heres an example of some linebred RASCAL dogs...

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [2766] :: BROWN'S BROTHER

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [43158] :: LONGRIDERS WAYLON

you add some STOMPANATO and now its linebred on thier sire BLACK SHINE...

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [2766] :: BROWN'S BROTHER

MIDGET was an example of INBRED, doublebred on PEDRO...

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [199] :: SNAKEMAN'S PEDRO

PEDRO isnt as tightbred being off an uncle RASCAL and out the niece off RASCALS brother OSO NEGRO...
Pedro is also linebred on ELI...

Even though RASCAL isnt from a father ex daughter, son ex mother or brother ex sister, I would say he is a product of a tight family inbreeding as his sire BLACKSHINE is inbred off ELI JR ex his sister BRENDY, Blackshine was bred to his half sister off ELI JR keeping it fairly tight...

if it was just a half brother ex half sister, I would say linebreeding, but being that the halfbrother is inbred, that tightens it to a loose inbreeding...

others thoughts on these examples would be of interest...

 

Yes if both dogs carry the blood and are bred, it would be a linebreeding...an outcross means there is no immediate commen factors in the pedigree...
So ziggy dont loose you Thunder, heres an example of some linebred RASCAL dogs...

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [2766] :: BROWN'S BROTHER

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [43158] :: LONGRIDERS WAYLON

you add some STOMPANATO and now its linebred on thier sire BLACK SHINE...

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [107044] :: WILSON'S LIL WAYNE

MIDGET was an example of INBRED, doublebred on PEDRO...

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [199] :: SNAKEMAN'S PEDRO

PEDRO isnt as tightbred being off an uncle RASCAL and out the niece off RASCALS brother OSO NEGRO...
Pedro is also linebred on ELI...

Even though RASCAL isnt from a father ex daughter, son ex mother or brother ex sister, I would say he is a product of a tight family inbreeding as his sire BLACKSHINE is inbred off ELI JR ex his sister BRENDY, Blackshine was bred to his half sister off ELI JR keeping it fairly tight...
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [21] :: CRENSHAW'S RASCAL 8XW 1XL
if it was just a half brother ex half sister, I would say linebreeding, but being that the halfbrother is inbred, that tightens it to a loose inbreeding...

others thoughts on these examples would be of interest...

 

You are right about one thing that knowledge is a MF but you dam sure don't have it!
I see thru your BS all day. You just a pedigree pimp who read allot on the internet with no true experience.
A few dogs don't make you an expert or dog man but when it comes to put up or shut up you stand quiet.
You have yet to post or talk about a bloodline that yo have done.
It's you & clowns like you that read, dream & have not done anything but talk.
You & folks like you have youngsters lost because you buy other folks dogs & peddle them based on other folks merits.
Now You & no one else could or did reply to this question until I made a statement based on facts beyond your comprehension.
Your the common buy dogs every year from everyone & has no real time with anything other than a book & a computer.
Nothing has changed little man.
Post pedigrees of "YOUR WORK not YOUR TALK" on what you did not what others did elias .
Cause to someone who has actually done shit you nothing new that I & others haven't posted over the years on many sites.

 

Like I said elias the peddler, your NOT giving this guy the answer he needs.

IF YOU DON'T KNOW OR UNDERSTAND HOW TO RECCONIZE DOGS TRUE BREEDING'S & RELATIONSHIP THAT ARE UNKNOWN , THEN YOU HAVE NO TRUE UNDERSTANDING OF BREEDING.
Famous dogs are just common peddlers talk & nothing more.

IF YOU HAVE NO HANDS ON EXPERIENCE THAT YOU CAN SHARE THRU PEDIGREES BEARING YOU NAME THAN YOU HAVE NO CLUE BUT ONLY AN OPINION.

SHOW PEDS @ LEAST ONCE TO BACK UP YOUR STATEMENTS AS COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY DID IT NOT ONLY READ OR TALKED ABOUT IT.

ANSWER THE QUESTION ABOUT HIS DOG, EVEN WITHOUT SEEING THE PEDIGREE.
You see peddlers like you have confused them because you don't know.
Consistantly showing others dogs & pedigrees, talking about what others did & giving NO WHAT SO EVER FACTS ABOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE THRU YEARS OF PERSONAL TRIAL & ERROR IS WEAK!
You are just a fan & nothing more. Dog owner but not dogman.
Tell & explain to Thunder98 , how are his dogs . How to breed his dogs & based on what to achieve what.
If you HALF OF WHAT YOU THINK YOU ARE , then answer to his question is simple without seeing a pedigree, but if your not then all you'll do is keep posting other people work & giving other people answers.

Which you still didn't!

I really doubt if one dog ped you showed you bred & worked yourself. I see & have seen thru the BS since I seen this site.

REAL OLD TIMER, well known or not, done more than what you talk about.
And not thru books or the internet. You seen proof that comes from actual hands on not talk.
Show yours!

 

If someone cannot answer this simple question shame on them.
If someone answers this question & cannot show you proof they actually bred a family then shame on you if you run with that advice.
To many need to hear basic from a few to feel secure about the task.
I strongly recommend to contact a actual breeder who has been where you are trying to go, not someone run with bs advice on the internet with people who did the same or less than you have but just been on the internet or read books longer.
There Pedigrees are the Real Proof not there talk.

 

Dam good thread,it takes both; good hunters and real dogmen.

Sent from my XT1064 using Tapatalk

 

Well fellas I appreciate the help and comments. It's been informative. I understand that the families of dogs are and can be different trait wise. My question is this, ex.. if i have a butkus/ bolio x frisco/ skull female.....and have hollingsworth red pirate/ crash x butkus male...would i not be line breeding on butkus if he is in both while being from the 3rd to 5th generation..while the majority of the blood is bolio with the eli out... No then my dogs name is irrelavant as she is made of the dogs blood behind her. Not to chase dead dogs or peddle but to concentrate and or create better dogs..and say if i had a vise grip dogs say 3/4 vise grip (bolio boomerang tomb) 1/4 lil john ( red boy jocko bolio tomb). This doesnt go together somewhere somehow down the line?


Man im lost, IF things WORK OUT , i was hoping these blends could be my foundation as i move and select and breed to my standards....thanks again fellas...back to the drawing board. I really dont understand how to explain a dog without expressing his or her bloodline.....if you tell me hou have butkus breed dogs...im thinks bolio red jocko....shouldnt i.

 

It seems you are getting way too caught up in the pedigrees/bloodlines, slow down and don't get too far ahead of yourself, let the dogs tell you who you should breed too and you should be alright.

 

An important lesson said time and again on this forum - quit worrying about the legends 5 generations away in your pedigree and focus on the dogs up front. Learn the dogs within two generations inside and out, and then go from there. Without that knowledge you're wasting time, because you've named a good number of the most famous bloodlines, and dogs with very unique traits different from each other. You can't just keep crossing and hope for any consistency if you don't know the dogs up front. If you like your gyp, study her traits and go find a proven make from one of those bloodlines that you really like and would like to focus on. Because if you don't have anything proven then you're really wasting your time, I think many on here would agree. People get so wrapped up in the names and the legends and forget to focus on their own. But I don't have any lines so take it for what it's worth, just things I've learned very quickly reading on gd.

 

I agree totally with you.

 

I also agree with you. More important just to focus on what in front of you than what they come off.