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A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by Rocky H. Balboa, Feb 2, 2006.

  1. A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    This thread is intended to deal only with activities outside the US of A. and is for entertainment purposes only.

    As usual, I do not support any activity that goes against the animal act blah blah blah blah blah blah...

    Our box is getting smaller don't you see? It use to be the rat terriers that held their ground then it was our breed but now, we have other breeds that have been adapted to perform eagerly and effectively too. Where is this all leading? On our side of the world, we will die stating our dogs are best. On their side of world, the same question will receive variable answers all depending on their local breed (Tosa, Kutta, etc) of choice.

    In order to compete in the world's box, are we, game-bred APBT owners (outside US of A), destined to increase our breeds size? Or remain the lightweights in this sport?

    Yes, these larger breeds do tend to be slower acting than our breed (as heavy weight boxers are slower than lightweight) but have the opportunity to be matched regularly. In addition, it is reported that BK and Kangals fight at a very fast pace and hold their ground just as well as a game-bred APBT.

    How are Hawaiian, Philippine, European, Asian strains dealing with the "new kids on the block"?

    Should we be faithful to the "standard" or the breed's purpose?

    Should we breed to the standard or performance?

    If the purpose of the breed has change (or is changing) shouldn't the standard?

    Why can't we increase our breed size (as did poodles although for different reasons i.e. toy, mall, medium, large poodles) while retaining gameness?

    Is it impossible to retain GAMENESS while increasing size? Does increase of size directly decrease gameness?

    Should our breed never enter the box against these breeds? Why?

    How can we continue to state our dogs are best if we cannot prove it against WORLD opposition?
     
    The Watcher likes this.
  2. miakoda

    miakoda GRCH Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    Always be faithful. If you don't have faith in what you love & believe in, then get out.

    And people go on & on about Tosas but one thing you don't realize is they don't fight to the death. They can't. They will both quit before that due to extreme exhaustion from having to make their massive bodies move.
     
  3. Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    Yes, I have seen these tosas work....not too impress but have read about Kangals and BK being highly prey-driven. In addition, as stated, they are larger animals and as such, will move slower than our smaller dogs. Just like boxers and MMA practitioners. In addition, those monster-bred "pit bulls" show the same slow movements.

     
  4. 14rock

    14rock GRCH Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    Our standard is performance. It has been for centuries, and that is the reason we own the dogs we do. We dont need to change a damn bit, its been proven before who is victorious and the same holds true today.
     
  5. Will Power

    Will Power Big Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    Why do you think a bigger game dog wouldn't do well? In bigger i mean 60 lbs. Do you watch K-1. Some of those smaller guys hold there own. In short There is no need to change anything, can't change perfection.
     
  6. Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    If our dogs were "perfect" culling would not happen.
    In my research, I have found that the Kangals and Bully Kuttas are regarded as best in their class (100lb+). The Tosa Uno is more of a Sumo Wrestler than a combatant.

    The Bully Kutta (Chuta) differs in looks depending on locality. Breeding of these dogs have only recently assumed a standard which in turn will eventually lead to a standard look. Prior, breeders bred for performance much like our predecesors in England did our terriers. These dogs are a group of dogs rather than a single breed. This labeling by working type is what identifies a Bully Kutta for now.

    The Kangals were bred as the ultimate livestock guardian. The kangals may grow to be over 200lbs fit weight! These dogs have been bred to defended livestock against wolves, bears, cougars, etc. There has been a report of one that defend its flock against 5 wolves. The dog stood its ground until the wolves retired. If the dog had attacked, it would have left its flock unprotected and at the mercy of the other wolves not in battle. There was another report of a Kangals (I think it was 250lb) who fought and defeated a bear to defend its flock. In addition, breeders of these dogs cull hard. They are also matched against each other and only the best are bred. This assures future generations will retain the skills, attitude, and temperament needed. One big difference with these dogs is snarling. This is a trait accepted by their breeders. Why is snarling accepted? It gives the predator an opportunity to flee!

    There are different valid reasons to love our breed (i.e Looks, history, attitude, and purpose). Those who love the breed for its purpose please take note that our box is getting smaller. There is a decision to be made when it comes to it. We either accept and keep our dogs in the "lightweight" division or accept "natural evolution" and allow game-bred dogs to increase in size. Now, do not think I am advocating increasing size. This post is merely to start the wheels turning. Do not allow your PRIDE blind you of the facts. The facts are that we, in the US of A. have not experience their best dogs here in East nor them our best.

    In the box, size does matter. Standard or performance? If it cannot perform against these dogs, should the standard be modified?

    I would like to leave you with this statement made by someone posted on a different site:


    "Its no wonder why game pit dogs owners are hated because their to caught up in their own dogs to looks around at the other greatness."


     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 3, 2006
  7. thablacksheep

    thablacksheep Big Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    "natural evolution"... from the last time I checked lions are the size that they were many years before just like, fish, cows, elephants, zebra's, deers and so on and so forth. The standard size of the APBT has nothing to do with man manipulating "natural evolution" but rather than responsible dog men understanding how to breed for a specific gene, gameness, which in my book is the only standard necessary. Why should we modify the standard of our breed due to the accomplishments of another.
     
    Patch likes this.
  8. 14rock

    14rock GRCH Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    LOL I'll ackowledge them as the great dogs their owners claim when they finally step up and consistently win! Our dogs have been unparalled for centuries and I dont see it changing anytime soon. Anyways, I couldnt care less who is a better fighter....one because its illegal, and two because I admire gameness above everything else. We've known for years there are breeds out there that are bigger, bite harder, better wrestlers...whatever. The fact of the matter is.....we choose the one breed that is unparalled in a category we thought was more important "GAMENESS". As has been, and will be, gameness is what will continually make our dogs come out on top in their own sport.
     
    Bullyson and rocksteady like this.
  9. thablacksheep

    thablacksheep Big Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    [​IMG] couldnt agree with you more.
     
  10. Will Power

    Will Power Big Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    Ok Rocky Culling is a part of life. Very touching stories. I have heard of a 50 lbs pit fight off two mountain lions in CA.
    Ok maybe you didn't understand the word perfect. Wind, Power, GAME, Fast, Hard mouth The dogs you like are lacking one or more. Changing the size with bull sh!t breeding to get a bigger dog will change our perfect dog. You think thoses big ass mutts will go 3+ hours Like a pit can. Get a BANDDOG.
    No Dog has it all but one.
    But I like your post.
     
  11. 14rock

    14rock GRCH Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    I wouldnt say our dogs have it all Will Power..but what they do have is the most important thing to have.
     
  12. Will Power

    Will Power Big Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    Well i stick to what i said. If you think i am saying they can take on everything thats not what i am saying. APBT are the Ultimate Dog,
     
  13. Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    Interesting that you mentioned our dogs fighting a mountain lion. I heard a long time ago that our breed was TERRIBLE against bears and mountain lions due to our breed's style (holds). I guess that should be placed together with the other myths.

    Here is my opinion on the matter. As of today, our dogs are the best in the sport (Outside of the US as we in the US do not go against the 1976 act ;) )

    What makes an animal work hours without rest? Is it the lack of size alone?

    Are large breeds only good for short-term work? Aren't there large breeds that work long hours in the farms, country, mountains, etc?

    Can all the great attributes in our breed be preserved while allowing increase in size?
     
  14. SEAL

    SEAL CH Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    why increase in size? look at it like weight classes you compete in the class you fall in you dont try to jump up two or three classes. you competer in the class you qualify for in your best physical shape. its that simple to me. if you want something to compete in the 200+ class you design a NEW dog. just like at a wrestling tournament your 150 guys wrestle 150 your 200 guys wrestle 200 and there is a difference in the way those two groups of men will wrestle and compete bcs of the size difference tactics and such must change also.
     
  15. Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    First off, I am not proposing anything. What I mean by "increase size" is allow those game-bred dogs that happen to be larger than usual an oportunity to reproduce better than themselves rather than cull them due to their "larger" size.

    I am not proposing to breed for size, color, or anything other than GAMENESS. As you know, some lines when tightly bred, will begin to throw large specimens. These dogs are more or less what I am referring to when I state "allow" increase in size.

    I would not want to fatten my boy up to go against fit 140lb dogs...no way. My boy may be hot and ready but I am not stupid:cool:
     
  16. Mercepitdog

    Mercepitdog Big Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    People can breed and feed what ever the hell they choose in my opinion. But I also noticed that not only the apbt is a superior fighting dog. Anything near its weight, the apbt is best hand downs. But, not only are there some breeds over there in the middle east that are near apbts weight class, they even have some larger beasts that can scratch like our little terriers! I see it like this, the more popular a breed, the worst its gets, but even there, even the people dont know what a kutta is! I say theres the best and the worst. Kuttas belong in the best!

    The kangals may grow to be over 200lbs fit weight!

    That is false my friend. The kangal should be 110-150 being the largest! How can a 200lb dog have enough to wind fight off wolfs and other such animals? Like or apbts having fake over sized dogs, the kangal is very popular in turkey, having knock offs and the rare well bred ones. Have a look

    Working kangal

    [​IMG]

    And the knock offs bred for nothing but looks and size ones

    http://www.ozcankangallari.com/photogallery/KANGAL/Z%20(26).jpg

    Well, the thing is, kangals mostly chase the animals off before they have to fight them, but will fight when needed to be. Turkish wolfs are smaller, coming in at 60-90lbs. And single wolfs are noting to speical to worry about in the first place, they evovled to hunt and to be able to get food not in fight in canine combat. Wolfs are infeior when its comes to fighting ablity, but their jaw power is quite impressive. And the Turks know that in packs, wolfs are deadly, so they place turkish collars around the dogs.

    Turkish collar

    [​IMG]

    The kangal is able to fight aleast one or two wolfs at the same time, the collar really comes in handy when more wolfs are around, wolfs go for the necks like most dogs when fighting, to give the dog an edge vs is wild cusin, it gets a mouth full of spikes!

    The kangal is NOT A FIGHTING BREED. Because they use them for fights means little to nothing when it comes to proving those gaint curs! They pit a 130lbs dog vs a 30lb god knows where pitbull and call it the best fighting dog. :p Silly turkish dogmen, tricks are for kids! When it comes to live stock guardians, the kangal is one of the kings, but to the fighting ring, its the apbt, tosa, bully kutta, and a few others who claim the top prize for the best! The kangal has no more fighting ability than the next larger dog.


    They havent proven nothing then, and never would now
     
    david63 likes this.
  17. Mercepitdog

    Mercepitdog Big Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    Dog men with other fighting type breeds feel the same way. I call it the "dogman" disease lol
     
  18. Riptora

    Riptora CH Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    I think that the newer breeds are very impressive and will only continue to become more so. I don't think pits should be changed what-so-ever, they are amazing for their size. The are truly compact, in handling dogs, I believe there is no breed that size that is as powerful as a pit. Dogs should be compared by substance more than size. You can most definately have an extremely agile dog at a much larger size, the doberman for example is between 65-75lbs and probably the most agile of them all and they can go forever. One my dobes could run at 45 miles per hr and I didn't push him but he would run until his pads cracked, he could scale several feet too and it would take hours for him to get tired. They don't have a great hunting drive though, so they would need to have a different design. I really like the Dogo Argentino, any comments on that breed? I say if you wanted a larger pit, it needs to be a new breed, which is something you could do, but I wouldn't there's no need, there are enough animals and there were dogs in the past that were superior in the pits but they became extinct because it was just too much.
     
  19. lockjaw

    lockjaw CH Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    we know..but should they...becareful
     
  20. Sid Finster

    Sid Finster Big Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

    People keep saying that, allother things being equal, a heavyweight will win a boxing match against a lighter boxer.

    True enough, but successful heavyweight fighters typically weigh around 210 pounds, stand 5' 10" or so. They don't get that much bigger. Heavyweight fighters do NOT stand 6'7" and weigh 345 pounds, except in Rocky XXVII. There is no reason a 350 pound giant could not take up boxing, other than the fact that a smaller and more agile boxer would consistently kick his ass.

    I know nothing about dog fighting, nor do I intend to take it up, but I suspect that the same holds true for fighting dogs. There is a maximum size and weight at which a canine gladiator will be successful. Any bigger and the dog will not be as effective.
     
    miakoda likes this.

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