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Are great dogs made or bred?

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by Andre, May 6, 2019.

  1. Andre

    Andre Pup

    My question is, could you get a dog that had great dogs in it's pedigree. Like some of the common bloodlines many backyard breeders seem to be pushing(Eli, Bolio, etc) on youtube, craigslist, etc. Im not gonna mention names of these so-called "kennels", but let's say you got a dog from that stock. Most of those dogs that are bred simply for pedigree(they might have a job, they might not). Or let's even say an ADBA showdog/weightpull dog/ Treadmill dog/etc. Could you raise a pup from one of those litters and make a great dog? By great I mean a true game dog, when raising it optimally.
    Or do you believe that the breeder themselves had to have the best ethics relevant to the American Pitbull Terrier breed(true dogman), before you even pup your hands on a pup and raise them?
    They say a great pup in a bad owner's hands can ruin them and they also say a cold dog being raised optimally is a waste of food when they disappoint the owner.
    I would definitely choose plan B if I had the option, but I could end up paying more and having bad luck. While with plan A the initial investment is lower, the chances for a cold dog are far greater, it's less of a blow.
    While I don't view failure as an option, reality can be harsh. So what do you guys think? Made? Bred? A little bit of both?
     
  2. Box Bulldog

    Box Bulldog Premium Member Premium Member

    Lets compare this with a boxer. If you have great genetics but poor conditioning, coaches and so on your genetics can only take you so far but you would have a good natural ability. If you have poor genetics but train like crazy and have great will power and coaches you might win a few. In my opinion you need genetics and and work/conditioning, will power ec. to be great. Same goes for dogs most of the time anyhow.
     
  3. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    I'm lean toward made. But can see where some may go with 'bred'.

    The reason I lean toward made is that great conditioning can hide the cur for quite some time. Great handling can be the difference between greatness and so-so ran. Picking the right two dogs to breed is more important than how similar dogs in a pedigree are stacked. Schooling a dog is by far the most important and biggest step going forward and how a dog is schooled can be the very reason a dog does not work out, even a really good dog.

    I have heard some say there dogs are bred well enough to over come other people's mistakes. I find that hard to believe. I feel like I have the ability to screw up anyone's best efforts in the brood pen. If I had Molly Bee, Chinaman and Zebo and if I did incredibly stupid things and made incredibly bad decisions we would not be reading about them now, nor would we be chasing their legacy trying to re-create dogs from 40 years ago.

    To go a little deeper on the subject, I look at these dogs like a large triangle shape. On the far left and right of the base there is the place and time two dogs are selected for breeding. From that point forward how the dogs are whelped, how the dogs are raised, how the dogs are nurtured and how the dogs are fed start shaping the dog. The sides of the triangle are shaved off little by little til the dog is mentally mature and then schooling starts, whittling even further til the dog is chosen to show and actual conditioning starts. The conditioning whittles the sides down to the very tip of the point of the triangle, and at that point the thin line is razor sharp. When that happens, there is a third party standing in the neutral corner, saying, "Release your dogs".

    The only way to get better is to pick the dogs who have made up really high on the triangle and not constantly starting with unknowns with dogs at the bottom of really big triangles.

    If that makes sense.

    S
     
  4. Michele

    Michele Premium Member Premium Member

    This^^^^^ Both, in my opinion
     
    Box Bulldog likes this.
  5. stickler

    stickler Big Dog

    Damn @slim12
    How can someone start with the dogs, if you tells him what the goal is ? :D
    You, sir, are so damn full of wisdom. What, if your level would be the standard ?
    The last proof that I needed to see from you is this:
    I can not give you enough likes for this. You are a true dogman and a breeder !!! \m/

    @Andre
    Don't listen to slim, you can't understand. This for sure was not for newsters. Old timers should learn this first :D
    Your problem still might be that other people have to tell you what a good dog is.
    And what you call a good dog might be not enough dog for slim or anybody else.
    So, do not buy, do not breed, do not anything before you are sure, that this is what you really want.
    But I know it's fun to paint the perfect picture with the dogs to come in the future.
    But it takes time, much money and even more true love for the dogs.
     
    AGK likes this.
  6. stickler

    stickler Big Dog

    And btw. if you start, then maybe start with a slogan like this:
     
  7. stickler

    stickler Big Dog

    Just asked myself, what if @slim12 and @AGK would be working together at the same kennel project ?
    Called Perfection Kennel ?
    Could be like the milkman once wrote in one of his ads.
    Maybe not the best, but better than the rest.
     
    AGK likes this.
  8. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    First and foremost, I am not a breeder. I never seen the point in the hassle of puppies and breeding and brood dogs and such. (I often kick myself in the ass because I have had a lot of dogs that more than likely would have produced but I just skipped that part). Most of dogs were trades and placements over the years. We had three or four of us, not necessarily partners, but we worked together. We used each other's breedings to keep the chain spaces full. So I did not breed that often, nor did I see the point.

    AGK on the other hand. I think those dogs are world class. The only thing that will keep those dogs from being world renowned is that one, he keeps most of them, and two he is not spiting them out like hos ass was on fire.

    There were two of them that some years back forced me to eat potted meat sandwiches for a week or so.

    And back to the topic. I do believe most dogs are made and at the same time I think the opposite is true as well, a lot of 'bad dogs/culled dogs' would have proved successful with a better decision making process. Many a young dog is forced into performing, allowed to perform at a very young age and for the most part, had the world dropped on them before they were ready.

    Maybe better said, the keep does not last 8-10 weeks, the keep starts about 10 weeks prior to the whelping of the puppies when the two dogs are selected for breeding. From the selection process till the man says, "Black dog/Red dog the winner", everything, and I mean every thing factors into the equation.

    Like it was said before. Establish the goal/(s) and move on from there.

    S
     
    BronerFan, stickler and AGK like this.
  9. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    I have mixed feeling on the topic. I feel a wee bit differently on the subject than most.

    While I do believe in man made dogs to an extent, I feel they either have heart or they don't and if they don't, I feel no amount of training, raising etc is going to make a cur become a gamedog. Maybe it can beat a gamedog on any given Saturday that has poor conditioning but that to me is just hiding the cur that is always going to be there. Once they quit, I feel most will do it even faster the next time.

    Proper raising/feeding/exercising is very important and stacks the odds on your side but the dog either has it or it doesn't. If the heart isn't there to begin with then IMO no amount of proper raising is going to make the dog have more of something it just don't have to begin with.

    Like slim had mentioned, great conditioning can hide the cur. That is, until it meets an actual gamedog that has just as good conditioning. Then the difference would will be very noticeable. Folks who are highly skilled at conditioning and handling will have more success with these type dogs than the average person will. I feel these dogs and people are not the norm though. They are the extreme cases.

    The odds of pulling a GR CH 35 out the local paper or from people who breed generations of unworked animals together I feel is almost slim to none. There's always a chance but it's really unlikely and low% IMO.

    Good dogs come from people who breed good dogs to good dogs from a family that has a history of producing good dogs, it's really not rocket science IMO.

    A decent culling process is also necessary as well no matter where ones dogs come from, culling will always need to be done.

    Personally, I would spend the coin on a well bred dog from a person who breeds the kind of traits your looking for in a dog. Your chances of getting a good one is far better with the reputable breeder or even we'll say purpose breeders than with say the guy that happens to have a male and female couch denter that he breeds together every heat and who sells dogs out the local penny saver to anyone with 200 bucks.

    The man behind the dog is IMO always the bigger factor. Especially if we are talking performance bred animals.

    I'm the type of person that would breed to the 2 hour game loser over the 3 time winner that has never seen beyond 40 minutes. One lost but has shown gameness as opposed to the other who won all 3 but who's heart was never tested.

    There is no right or wrong way just what works best for you and everyone has different theories and practices. The best part is testing ones own practices against someone elses and the dogs will let you know whos theory is better on that given day. If we all did things the same way then the game would be pretty boring.
     
  10. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    I also don't believe that the breeder has to have the ut most impecible ethics to produce good dogs. There is no shortage of scumbags out there that consistanly produce good dogs. Especially in this breed of dog.


    Thank you for those very kind words slim. Appreciate it.

    You too stickler.
     
    slim12, DISCOIII and stickler like this.
  11. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Well said. And I agree.

    I think it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. Dogs included.

    I have had my ass handed to me by a cur and saw that cur sold for $$$$. In her next endeavor she hung it up in less than :15. She had more than enough mouth and just enough ability to win but she did not have heart enough to stay when things were not in her favor.

    Even with the loss, I drove home with the better dog.

    Since I never bred that many dogs I always left my definition of gameness as the willingness to continue which can translate to game enough, if that makes sense.

    That is where I would fall short as a breeder. In looking for what can win sometimes that foundation is suspect, and that really nice house sitting on a shitty foundation will often crumble into the ground. Dogs no different.

    When I went out to find the next good one I often went to a lifetime breeder who was putting out those consistently game dogs. Dogs that would stay the course, hell bent on continuing. The dogs you have to pack a lunch because this is going to take a while type.

    When I did breed dogs it was more of a good dog to good dog approach but without the years of experience with a certain strain/certain family of dogs. The percentages were par at best, maybe not even par at times.

    My foundation is on shaky ground because I never thought long term in these dogs. It was all about getting to the show and that is never more than two years away. I never really put thought into dogs that could throw more dogs to get to the show again and again. Similar to the great Forrest Gump, "I'm not a smart man".

    I like the dogs AGK breeds. If this were 30 years ago. If I bought one, I would ensure it was right and then ride up and down the road. When it came to the breeding portion I would not put much thought into perpetuating long term. I would at best identify a weakness and breed toward that, but more than likely the best dog I could afford to get to hoping to be good two years from now. In time this plan does not end well.

    A series of smaller successes, with as many failures, but nothing to really hang a hat on.

    Kudos to the ones who have made it their calling to produce good dogs long term.

    S
     
  12. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. Retired Historican

    You cannot build a house on a poor surface, that also applies to dogs.
    Slim you are a real bulldog man and smarter than most when I read your stories.
    And that goes up for AGK as well.
    Keep up the good work.
     
  13. stickler

    stickler Big Dog

    Are great dogs made or bred ?
    Well, to answer this question is simple.
    It takes both sides. But even that sometimes is not good enough.

    A breeder is a breeder ... and this is another breed.
    slim, even a breeder sometimes is able to keep his dogs in good shape, work them, school them and maybe show them. Maybe with a little help in the show part.

    I would also try to get a dog from AGK. Let the other guys do the gamble :D

    Rudy is right, and he knows ! \m/
     
  14. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    No doubts. Some camps do it all.

    I just never put that much effort into the breeding part of these dogs. And over time I have learned to respect that part of the dogs more than ever.

    I agree it takes both groups to move forward successfully. Like AGK said if there is not a bulldog in there to start with all the man made attempts will not change the fact it is simply not there. It can be hidden to a point but in time it will come out, in most cases.

    Like Molly Bee, who really knows if she was a game dog or not? She went out 8 times and nothing ever scratched back to her. What if something did? Who knows? Maybe there was something hidden by the incredible mouth and devastation she delivered.

    In my personal mindset I'd trade 10 ROM dogs to stand on top of one Molly Bee. The two people that introduced me to the dogs thought the same and once I started down that path, not a lot ever really changed.

    Si I appreciate the breeder, I believe it takes both parties but I spent a lot of time betting on me. That may push me to the made part of the debate. I graded a dog from 1 to 10 in several categories and if he could pull a 7 across the board we went on a road trip. If he pulled a five or a six, we more than likely took the ride but there would not be as much riding on the trip. The 7 and ups I am betting on the dog and the five ans sixes I am betting on me, if that makes sense.

    I think over the years I had a lot more fives and sixes than 7's and above so I was betting on me more times than not. Again, if that makes sense.

    Great series of posts. Great topic.

    S







     
    Andre, stickler, BronerFan and 2 others like this.
  15. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    Lol yous give me too much credit. Hell, somewhat recently, one from here, a very promising prospect hung it up, on top, two seperate times. IMO the worst kind of cur. Another turned out cold, first one ever from here. Although I myself feel she should have maybe been sat on a little longer since M.I.A, a foundation bitch I used, didn't turn on until 4 and this one is barely 2.5, it wasn't my call and she was spayed. My opinion on that last part is just an excuse and if it where here, same thing would have happened or worse. I try not to make excuses for why they do what they do.

    None the less, my point is, most will only hear about someones good dogs, not the many bums and box jumpers one had to go through to get the kind of dogs everyone wants and expects to get.. They can't all turn out to be world class. Wish they could but it simply does not work that way. Out of all the old bulldog sayings, one constantly stays in my mind, "don't be suprised when they quit, be suprised when they don't"...

    Pups are always a big gamble but you can help your odds by only dealing with kennels who produce what your looking for with some kind of consistency. Even then, it's still going to be a gamble.

    My dogs are no different than anyone elses, some turn out, others not so much. It's a roll of the dice when dealing with pups and that goes for any kennel on the planet whether they want to admit it or not. The key is to limit your chance of loss by seeking out people who consistently produce what your idea of a Bulldog is. Everyones varies... My idea is in my backyard. Took many years to come to be. I don't consider myself to be a dogman, a breeder or anything other than just a guy with some dogs and a personal vision or dream if you will.

    Lol and it sure aint to sell dogs. I'm kind of stingy with my dogs.
     
  16. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator


    Makes total sense.
     
    david63 and stickler like this.
  17. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Very well said.

    I was kicked off the Ca. Jack board for debating the very thing. Well, that got it started and then some other trivial stuff happened and he gave me the boot, but it stemmed from doubting his percentages.

    Seldom do we here about the ones that hang it up. I guess that does not sell a lot of puppies.

    I always give much respect to the dogs that were given the chance to prove themselves and that same respect for the guy standing behind them. I'm impressed more with the guy who had a couple quit than the guy who never bothered to find out but bred the dogs anyway.

    I just sent a PM about me putting almost five years into seeing a number of dogs, finding the dogs that had what I was looking for and then working thru some to get to the two I wanted to breed. For all my work I got an ice cold male with zero interest and a couple of game plugs. There was one female who won, but she was a game plug, but I give her the credit and her owner as he took his chances. But for all my work and effort I got nothing to speak about.

    Again, I am not a breeder. I use to think I was a dogman but I do not think that way any more. Like AGK, I am just a guy with a hobby, and the hobby happens to the dogs.

    One of the best lessons I learned was very early on. The guy that first introduced me to the dogs said stay in the dogs as long as you want, do as much as you want and when you are satisfied your time is up, hopefully no one knows your name. Those are words to live by. An they were from the 70's, early 80's when things were a bit different. But words to live by regardless.

    S



     
  18. jstevens

    jstevens Premium Member Premium Member

     
  19. jstevens

    jstevens Premium Member Premium Member

    Really like this part. Most guys would be all over the 3x winner.
     
    AGK and stickler like this.
  20. Blackpoison

    Blackpoison CH Dog

    I would like a dog that gives it all in 40 minutes.. and really puts pressure to win . . Then ones that pace themselves and increase time. some dogs put as much energy in 40 minutes then a dog that lasted 2 hours. The will to win. Sometimes their equals and who ever steps up the pressure at the end and trys to win not just survive... actually wins. That competitive spirit is important for a match dog.. you know ..always pushing forward.
    you cant teach that.. you born with it
     

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