Breeding for traits

Which one ? lol

 

I'm just pulling your chain. i know you mean Thread..... It was just funny to keep seeing Fred instead.

 

Pull harder

 

I don’t think I’m percentages. I was stating the traits I prefer. I don’t need the tamest dog this side of the equator. I’ll take what you give me, depending on what you give me. Of course I want the total package. That ain’t always the case tho. Every dog that hunts and comes home ain’t the total package. Some dogs have more than others. More of this more of that. A few have it all

Let’s do fighters. Floyd Mayweather is probably the greatest defensive fighter of all time. I wouldn’t want a dog like him. Roy Jones Jr was probably the most athletic boxer I’ve ever seen. Period. He lost a couple by ko. I would take a dog like him tho. He had heart and talent out of this world!! He met his match tho, then stayed around too long. You might want a dog that’s totally different. I said all that to say, and I agree with you, different strokes for different folks...

You breed for traits and hope you get the complete package. If you don’t, keep tryin. If you do get it, try to get better. If you had the best dog you could, I’m glad. If you don’t think you can get better, who am I to argue that? Looking for better dogs is what makes them better imo. Very few dogs had it all. VERY few

 

True. Now we can talk. lol
Well, I got the best dog 'I can think of' from a breeder, not of my own breeding. The dog just showed me what I can expect to get, besides of the average (got also another average bro to compare, lol). He is MY maximum so far. He was no freak and probably also not the exception to the rule. He was just better than average from a high average yard.
He probably won't produce only dogs like him, I expect him to produce the average again. Need to know first what he is producing at all.
But I also need to keep it as pure as possible to begin with. First I want to get the same good average like the 'original' yard.

My dogs will always be also 'his' (the breeder's) dogs, so I just have to do it right. He did the same with the breeder where he got his foundation dogs from.
And for those two it was always about gameness first. Bert Clouse was 'The King Of The Pit' and on the other hand he was a 'stickler' on gameness.
How does this fit together ? Very well, if you would asking me.
I still don't have dogs, but I am already thinking about a future cross. Just in case to be prepared if this becomes reality. lol
Crossing dogs, as I see it, is not that simple. A breeder who does know his dogs well for 20 or 30 years made his decision to use a cross on his dogs, because he feels it's time to cross.
Can you image how important such a cross might be for an old time breeder ? Sure, he can just 'try' different crosses and see how it works.
But, breeding for me is 'knowing' and 'doing', not just that much 'trying'.
What's the benefit of a cross ? What's the risks ? ...

Saw a lot of boxing in my earlier days. Roy Jones Jr. is a well made born gr ch. Saw all of his first 20-30 fights, mostly live. Means at 5 or 6 in the morning.
I have never seen one like him before. I have never seen one like him after. We always compared him with a pitdog here. lol He was the optimum or at least as close as it gets.
His style ... lol. His first 10 or so knock outs were so funny. lol That's ability at its best. And most of his other 'traits' have been also better than average.
He was soo close to 100%. My all time favorite, if we do not mention Ali. I had to go up late in night to watch the fight with old George. I was 5 or so.
There you can see what I like. lol Gameness, stamina, brain, ability (and non ability), style and mouth (punch). And pacing, pacing, pacing and waiting for the right spot and time. Perfect

And of course, only a few can have it all. It's all about percentages. Everything is.
When I hear 'the best' ... then I always have to think about what 'the best' really means first. How many can be 'the best' ? Exactly one, if you ask me. lol Maybe not the best, but better than the rest ?

But sometimes it does not seem to be that simple. And would it not be a huge disappointment when the 'best dog' can't produce better as he was himself ?
Most people only judge 'them best dogs', but they too often forget about the average. The average (the higher the better) is producing those top dogs.
To better the average could be one key or maybe the key here.
If the average is 50% then everything above is the good average. 2 litters of 5 pups is 10 pups in total. How many quit, how many show to be of lower quality, how many do you like, how many become the best ... ? A good and better than average dog around 60-80 % could be all you need to better the average on the yard. And it may help to weed out the freaks. lol
It's the average on the yard on one hand and on the other hand it's the average that the individual dog is producing.

Let's say you got 3 'best brood bitches' lol on the yard. Or just let's be honest, there is a ranking for sure. Broodstock does not mean 'best dog ever'.
The females can be just a good average on the yard. Good game bitches with a good body structure and without faults. Do we need ALL qualities with one dog or one or each single breeding ? One bitch can be high ability and she may throw it, but got not a top mouth. The next bitch got no ability at all, but her gameness and stamina are on top. The last bitch is a good all around bitch who got 'the style'. Now you can make all kind of breeding with them. You can still try to get that 'one dog' or you might think a little bit more into your future.
The goal could be to get the best possible average on the yard within the next 2 generations. Now you think about how this can be done with the dogs on hand. Let's take an average of 30% match or brood stock. 3 out of 10. Can be also 6 or 7 or only 1 out of ten. Doesn't matter here. But you can take this number and use it. If a female is producing 'better' as those numbers (30%) then she could be ok for future brood. Get my point ?
That's not the worst way to better the average on the yard. My way would be raising the 3/10 to 4/10 as a first step.
Putting them well together for future brood is a great key. Believe it or not. Open the eyes for the good average dogs gives you more and better opportunities ...
And btw when I write 'you' then it's most of the time NOT meant toward you personally. It means me and you and everyone else or nobody really. lol

 

But you would be a good one ... so sorry that you HATE pups !

 

I hate pups to lol..
and breeding really aint my thing.

I belive Gameness to be a trait.
i belive Gameness is or should be the very first trait any would be breeder needs to "lock in"to there stock...
other traits what come after Gameness are to the breeders desires..
breeder in this tex means the person breeing his or her dogs..
its already been said that Gameness alone is not to aim for.infact Gameness alone will get the pooch killed.
but without it the breed means nothing.

Now im no scientist but triaits and genes are not the same(at least i dont think they are)
its a good thing to say and even think that Gameness is a gene...the so called "Game gene".
but Gameness is a trait and its a really hard trait to explian.
i dont think its in there genes to be Game(well it has to be in some of there make up lol)but i think its most defintly in there genes to fight.that i do belive.

So most if not all will show fight.
obviously the ones what wont need to be the first to go.
the ones what will......well then we see.

I have to just state right now in writeing that i actully thought Gameness was a gene up on till very recently..
it was talking with some of you guys on here and doing a bit of digging into the science side of genetics(boring and hard for me to understand lol)
that i realised its a trait and not a gene...

But now i think.is it a trait???
its hard to say what it is really.



"The Fighting Dog is the gamest thing in the world-not even the game cock is as game.He fights under the severest rules know,for in his turn he must cross the pit and fight,or he loses.No other animal is asked to do this.Also,he will fight anything,and when i say anything,i mean anything-a piece of wood or a man,a gnat or an elephant;and nothing stops him but death.
His courage is abnormal,and i do not think it can be explained mechanically.Courage is of the brain or mind,not of the body.As to whether this state arises out of the brain processes,or as to whether from outside it has a higher origin is a matter of opinion.In humans it is more or less a state of mind,an ideal,an idea-seeing courege begets courage.The body is a servent that carries out the effect.With Plato and other philosophers courage was one of the cardinal virtues-the victory of soul,spirit,or mind over matter.
Heredity is inextricably mixed up with it,but wether pre-ordained in the protoplasm,or absorbed from some source of mentality from without,is uncertain;but it is certain that you cannot coerce an animanl into fighting when the courage is not there."

"No,we must look further then the body for true courage;the hart or mind that will never own defeat,it is the gift of God,and the truest virtue we can possess".

Both taken from Fitz Barnards book "Fighting Sports"1920.

 

Gameness Ability Stamina, that´s were to bred for.

The perfect dog have it all plus an above average bite.
It helps a lot if he is a smart dog as well, easy to work, friendly around people and so on.

It is after all no rocket science, do your homework and use your common horse sense.

Call your shot, rolling the dice, playing the game, it is all in there.

Quality produces quality, junk will produce junk, simple like that, you can't make gold from mud.

Some dogs produce better then others as some lines can be more succesfull then others, how come?, why ?, look good which folks are behind the dogs, that's one of the keys in finding a wellbred dog.

Traits or genes…?, it is all in the mind, a sound dog with a athletic strong body and a mind which refuse to give up, created by man. Due selection, another key.

The cur is a mentally broken dog.

A keen dogman will spot a good one quick another man need maybe much longer time to find out, so many people, so many flavors,and at the end of the day, as Slim stated, it is all about winning, that's common horse sense IMO.

And a man´s gamedog is another man´s cur.


Nice topic indeed.

Sincerly; F.W.K.

 

Nice to see you writing on the board FWK.....
all the best.

 

I also see gameness as a trait, but not pretty much in the same way like all those other traits. Gameness is, I believe, a thing on it's own.
Game dogs, just like the non game dogs, can have all of the known traits for good. Difference is, as I see it, that with all those other traits, you can add them or lose them with breeding. With gameness I would say you can't add it, you only can keep it or lose it.
You can SEE if the dog got mouth, ability, speed, ... , but you CAN'T SEE gameness. We only can imagine or 'smell' it.
Well, it's probably easier to recognize a non game dog for most.
How can we breed what we can't see ?

This could also lead to the overall quality of dogmen. I believe countless game dogs have been culled for the wrong reason at all times.
Dogs, mostly young or very young dogs, often quit at let's say 0:15. Cull ! Cull ? Is this a 100% cur ? Probably yes, but ...
What about a dog in shock or semi shock ? Those who are trying, maybe even screaming to get back to action one minute later ? Still curs ?
OR IS IT JUST A BAD SCHOOLING, A BAD HANDLING, A BAD EYE OR JUST ALL IN ONE ? Is the man behind the dog just doing right or wrong ?

Things like that can happen at all times. Remember a bitch with everything you can ask for. Her lower jaw got broken at 0:20. She first realized she can't take hold anymore. Next she felt in semi-shock and stood the line at her next go. The other bitch did the courtesy and the 'beaten' bitch was brought outside. She was screaming, and hard to handle, to get back to action. That was a quick goodbye to a superb bitch. Just because she did not react right in time.
And the owner got that bad feeling, something seems to be wrong here. Next time when another youngster on a hot day was beating the shit out of one and stood the line for 'no reason' at 0:15, he was asking himself ' what's wrong here ?
One minute later the dog saw his mirror pic, was starting screaming and almost jumped out of the window to get to the dog in front of him.
He was still on like nothing had happened. He later proved to be game in a loosing effort. Cull or no cull ?
He was just too wide open, not well pacing at all and was hit by a semi shock just at the wrong time.
Hard to see if the action goes on without handling. But it happens.

And there is NO different levels of gameness. There is only different levels of dogmen and some of them are just digging a little bit deeper than the rest.
If a dogman or woman, of course, feels comfortable of what he has seen than the dog might be game or 'game enough' to HIS understanding.

I will try again to explain gameness as simple as it goes. Kinda easy to explain, but hard to understand.

Gameness is the inability to quit !

And this to me looks pretty much of a DNA thing You CAN'T LEARN traits. It's all DNA in first place. Everything is.

 

Well, if this is correct, and I can say I believe it, than courage/gameness is not DNA and not a trait.
Soul, spirit, mind is pure energy.
Could be reincarnation or just karma Will we become a cur or a game dog with our next life ? You better don't wish the wrong side for yourself

 

The thing is though, how many dogs over the years have crossed the line because of the condition they was in and not because of their gameness?

A dog that hasn't taken many licks or one that is in top condition is less likely to be found wanting than an animal that's exhausted and beaten up.

 

Welcome back

It took me an hour to write the same thing

Often times yes, but again, but ...
What about those with a clock inside ? Those who quit no matter what at 0:12, 0:15, 0:20, 0:30 or 0:40 ?
And they are doing the same thing over and over again. That's just another weird thing about these dogs

 

Ok, I just can not overlook this, of course I can not
But this also goes to @slim12 and the ones thinking the same Well ...

Pups are dogs. If you HATE pups, then, well, how can one expect to ever get the best or 'one of them best' ?
I mean, if you just mean the work behind it, ok, but you HATE PUPS ? Really ?
I LOVE PUPS. Even puppy shit smells sweet
That's maybe why I do not like to buy 'new' dogs. I better only trust myself til I know better.

@F.W.K. wrote 'The cur is a mentally broken dog'.

You can get a mentally broken pup already. Too many dogs never get a real chance right from the beginning
I just feel safe if I raise them my way. If I got the choice between a pup from a hardcore dogman or an 'unchecked' breeding made by @AGK, then I would most probably choose the AGK pup, just because I FEEL better that way that I will get a 'better schooled pup' with better chances later in life.
Maybe the 'hardcore' pup will never quit and the AGK dog does, but I still would bet on that AGK dog
The dog will just outsmart that game plug no matter what
That's the 'made' dog with some good breeding behind it. Beat it

It's hard enough to do all of this with love, but almost impossible to do without love for pups/dogs.

If you guys just love to win, 'it's all about the win', then ... well ... god bless you

 

And guess which one is the better choice ?
Isn't this a sick game ?
A good breeder will/should sell the freak for so much as possible, maybe keeping breeding rights. Just in case ...
And he still can be happy about his solid game dog.

You know all of these things and still you do the way you do.
Strange, very strange

Just keep the hard mouth dogs pure and the ability dogs also. Just enough to keep it going. And do the cross breeding mainly ...
You don't need those crosses for future breeding, but, of course, you can also use them selectively for breeding.
If you got that space and time for 2 'pure' strains and them battle crosses and prospects ... and pups

 

Nice read @stickler
Nice veiw.

It goes with out saying a good dog is a good dog because hes got so many good traits..the full packege.
its hard to keep all them traits.
somtimes God breaks the mold.
or maybe the good dog was so good nothing of him is to your expectations?.
just because that good dog was so good,and his pups could never lick his boots...dont make his pups culls.
out of the good dog we want Gamness first.we want to keep that lol.NOT loose it as you say.
then we want as many traits that good dog had to be transmitted into his pups...

ha,ha,fucking no easy task.

Its no rocket science..
but its far from straight forward.

 

Lol....i dont actully HATE pups..
but i did say it.and HATE is a little strong..

Watching pups grow is awesome.
wondering witch ones is good to.
picking and the smell of shit and piss???arrr you got me.i love that to.

ide just prefair grown dogs lol.
good point tho about getting a well bred and looked after puppy then a grown dog.
and good point about rearing them your own way and not trusting any one to rear them for ya.
i like that.
and i totally agree.

 

And how many times a dog has to go up in weight, maybe 2 and 3 or 4 dogged ... to show his worth ?
Well, if you want 'just' to win, then you don't need and don't even want to see your dog gets game checked. Can this dog be used again ?
It's much easier to game check for a breeder. He can just do whatever he feels is needed in any way he wants to in private.
Maybe it's just one of them schooling dogs who never had to go for more than 15 or 20 minutes. The dog is getting old and never quit.
What to do with a dog like that ? Just do or die one more time ?
What if that mofo who did the schooling at most of your dogs, and who did it very well, won't quit or die, no matter what you are trying to do ?
Is there a chance this dog will become the breeders new stud ?