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Breeding for traits

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by RedRievera, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    What makes the dogs so interesting is "the most important trait" is totally dependent on who you ask, and maybe better yet what they do with their dogs.

    To me game is defined as 'the willingness to continue'. So each and every time he had the opportunity he showed that willingness. That keeps the definition simple, and I like simple. Then just like defining 'game' we could then dive deeper into 'willingness'. "He went but he showed bad signs" "He was looking around" . The fact we can go on and on and on makes this circle go round and round.

    For me, Molly Bee is the greatest match dog of all time. Her rolls were brutal and quick, a lot like her matches. She showed a willingness on her initial scratch, and after that her display of willingness was nothing more than pulling forward in her owner's hands after it was over. Simply, no one knows if she would have taken what she gave and still had the willingness to continue. Maybe that gets its own definition.

    Sandman was one of the great dogs of his time and he ran into one of the greatest match dogs of all time in GRCH Buck. Both put sport on each other to the point their gameness/willingness was on full display. Both gave as much as they got and showed willingness to continue. I would buy puppies off either of them given the opportunity. Maybe those dogs get a definition as well.

    GRCH Ali Baba won 8. His wins showed he had some of everything. He bit a couple down. He out classed a couple with talent. A few he had to take as much, if not more, than he gave and made his scratch. He took all they had and scratched when they would not. He displayed every desirable trait known at one time or another in his 8W's. On his last outing he lost, he stood the line. Did he lose/quit to another dog? If we delve deeper, I think he lost to Father Time. I think he lost/quit because his gas tank finally went empty. I think he lost/quit because his internal clock finally stopped. This dog deserves a definition too. He may be the perfect example of what the old folks mean when they say, "He went to the well one too many times".

    CH. Charlie won his first as a replacement dog with two weeks of walking and weight cutting into a 2XW/2XX-OTC dog. His first was used as his game check plus taking a shot at not having to pay a forfeit. He showed his willingness as it was a lot for him to figure out with another who had been around the block a number of times. It was bad early. He weathered and his gameness was on full display. From there, when in full keep and in in world class condition, his talent and ability coupled with the fact he could just about breathe underwater, he simply outclasses the next 3. Seeing what he did in #'s 2, 3 and 4, I would have to think if he were 100% schooled and prepped he would have did the same in #1. His gameness/willingness would have not been know, maybe even a little suspect. Maybe a different definition here too.

    So at some point all of the dogs listed above showed someone 'enough' that they were willing to ride up and down the road. That definition will differ with not only the owners of the dogs listed above but by the people who actually witnessed the gatherings. But the 'definitions' or how these dogs are 'defined' is by people who simply do not know because they have simply not seen.

    Which leads to another topic altogether, "Are you game enough to let your dog show he is game enough? A point to ponder.

    A cat 'willing' to put his dog on display in this day and time is 10 times more game than any of the all time greats.

    S
     
  2. stickler

    stickler Banned

    That's one of the questions I often ask ... can the dog take what he can dish out ?
    Was Molly Bee game ? My answer would be 'probably not'.
    Was Shady Lady game ? Well ... probably not.
    Would I use them in my breeding program ? Probably not !
    Maybe I would just give it a try, for other reasons than breeding, of course. Well, just for fun or to get some schooling stuff. Or to get a freak just for myself.

    With the Sandman example I have to say that my choice for breeding would have been Buck. Before and after the show, even if Buck would have lost this one. Just my type of dog.

    Ali Baba ped, please.

    Definitions even differ when looked at the same damn thing at the same time. lol
    It's my opinion that many only can see what they wanna see. And they for sure are not looking for them bad signs.
    Honesty means not just being honest to someone else. You have to be true and honest to yourself. A bad sign is a bad sign. Mostly. lol

    I can often see if a dog is going to quit ... when no one else even got an idea about it. lol Can be in seconds, minutes, ..., or just in the future.
    A dog won his 2. with good ability. The same evening I told the owner that his dog showed more than one bad sign and that he will probably quit sooner than later.
    The owner did not see what I'm talking about. A couple of months later at a party we got a call ... the dog quit ON TOP in 0:45 ... surprise, surprise ... lol
    Well, of course, the dog was bred to his very nice producing dam before. Tze ...

    Funny thing is the dog got 2 littermate bros, both nice. I got a call if I can come over with a male, because they wanna look at one they can buy.
    The breeder/owner (same guy) after 1 hour said he will sell the dog for cheap. I asked him why ? I saw 2 good ones. He said both are shit. lol
    This bro won 2 and was a really good and very hard to beat dog who NEVER showed a bad sign.
    Bro no 3 lost game in over 2:30 vs a high ability dog in top shape. At 2:00-:10 the dog, who was on the bottom the entire time, got that 'special' look in his eyes ... know it's my time asshole ... and he came up on top and was trying to eat the other dog alive. Well, probably not many did realize what's going on. lol
    And so I asked 'the owner' well, you got those 3 dogs in a litter. Why did you breed to the cur dog out of these 3 ? lol

    So, what we see and how we define it is different most of the time, of course.
    And I'm the type of guy who is judging all those guys for what they can see or can not see. Yeah, I know, it's my fault. Another one. lol

    Your last question most probably is a hard one to most ... lol And don't forget to say 'in all honesty, please'.
    I can honestly say I do not like game checking at all. But I do not see a better choice for getting the picture together.
    Sooner or later I just wanna get that clear pic, if I plan to breed the dog.
    If not, well, would I try to game check one like Molly Bee ? Probably not in first place. But if I plan to get her bred ... then I just wanna make sure ...
    I mean, that's the name of the game ... or like I wrote 'just for fun'. :D
     
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  3. c_note

    c_note CH Dog

    Today is a one and done in most parts. You got a good one some ppl you trust, maybe give it a try. I wouldn’t be goin 3-5 today, even with a real special one. I would sell him/her to someone who can get the most out of the dog. You just never know. Somebody might be solid til they get in a pinch. Pressure bus’ pipes and folks is paper thin these days... What kills me is when folks roll over on LITTLE ass charges! MAAAANNN you get told on so a fool can stay on the streets instead of doin 18-24 months! Everything hot these days. That’s why I just go to work, take out the ol lady, kiss on Mary J, fuck wit the dogs, and stay out the way. I had enough of the streets, I know what’s out there and it don’t love nobody
     
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  4. c_note

    c_note CH Dog

    I agree with most everything you said except not using Molly Bee or Shady Lady... WWWWHHHHAAATT?!?!?! If I had to choose only ONE it would be Shady Lady because of how she is bred. Never having seen either with my own two eyes, I would take either on performance alone. I guess I’m more of an action type. If I could breed up half the dog these 2 were, I’d be stickin em every 2yrs.

    If we were talking about Bad Rosemary, I could see your argument. She was more mouth than anything. She was a lot of mouth tho...

    I kinda understand your thought process though. We’ve had enough exchanges for me to kinda see the type of dogs you like.
     
    Soze the killer, stickler and slim12 like this.
  5. Ive seen most of Bad Rosmerys matches on vid...
    i seen one roll of her and her opponent was dead in around 8 miunets...real real horrible mouth she had...

    But i agree!...thats all i could see of watching them vids..pure bad mouth but little else.
    still,that bad mouth was enough to win her 4.
    has any one seen a mouth on level with hers???
    In the roll i just mentiond she seem to be getting woooped at first.and seems to find it hard to get in holds...but as soon as her mouth is completly shut..bang!its all over.
    freaky mouth.
     
    c_note likes this.
  6. @slim..a cat putting his stuff on disply in this time gets my respect..
    them cats keeping it going.
    them cats are future.
     
  7. And Molly Bee and Shady Lady must of been some gyps..
    the total full packege.

    Ide of been happy with Bad Rosemary to.
    i seen her bro Luthers vids.ide of been happy to own him to.in one of his vids he looks in real bad shape(Ablzin mentions this in his story on him to.)but comes back from way behide to win...he never seemed to jave a mouth as bad ad his sis..but his mouth was good.and he seemed smart and dureble.
     
  8. stickler

    stickler Banned

    Like I said, if Molly Bee or Shady Lady would have been MY dogs, then I probably would give it a try 'just for fun'. And if it really works and fits to MY percentages ... well ... :-/
    I did not see them 2 mentioned bitches and therefore I would not jump on that horse.
    But I did see, like most of us, the Bad Rosemary vids. Yup, she got mouth, and the rest was below average in all fields. Just my opinion, of course.
    I did not like her or her opponents very well. Just doesn't look so good.
    And I can say FOR SURE I do not wanna anything down from her. Or better said, I do not want anything that is bred down by Ablizin, as I simply don't trust his selection. Faults, faults, faults, ...
    I can't judge MB or SL. I mentioned SL because she and her breeding, offspring etc was explained to me once. Reason was a cross to Ch Nailor ;)
    Well, if you got enough space and everything to raise those 'battle crosses' then why not give it a try.
    Those dogs should be bred only for yourself, or split by those 2 who did the breeding, and should be not for sale at all. Those cross dogs need a proper selection ... in my eyes.

    Another point, again, and the most important one to start with is that I do not want any inbred Dibo blood in my dogs ;)
    And for sure will be never again anything down of Bullyson or that kind in the dogs I keep. Battle crosses might be the exception.
    That way I do not even have to look at over 90% of all dogs and peds :D

    What is reading peds good for if no one really cares ? It's about different systems. And there for sure is a system to breed good dogs.
    Can be seen in all of them 'still existing' strains/lines/families ...
    They all have made their own crosses. But it's important to see and understand what they did with those cross dogs then.
    And a system can be seen there. And all of this without knowing about the dogs at all.
    I just can see what i 'may' like by just reading the ped. It's an open book when bred right. And looks like a mess when not 'bred right in my eyes'. Colby dogs are known as pure bred ... but the foundation was not that pure. I don't say these dogs are good or bad ... I just do not care much about them dogs the way they are bred. I simply do not like that breeding style and the system.

    Maybe I'm a little bit kennel blind before I get a kennel, lol, but I did my own research and those dogs I like so much have just found me. So ...
    I love my little red Terriers :-B
     
    Soze the killer likes this.
  9. stickler

    stickler Banned

    @Forever-So REAL was posting this ped http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=618700
    That's a well bred dog where you can see a/the system. Names don't matter.
    And it shows how you can use dogs like Molly Bee in a breeding program. Breeding a Snooty/Molly Bee son back to MB would be another story.
    Looks like MB is used as a cross, but it's still line breeding of course. This way you at least got a chance for success.
    Again, just my opinion, of course.
     
  10. Lol..i dont no nothing about the comp BR went into...i just watched the vids of her and noted her bad(real bad)mouth..
    i just watched it lol..it was years ago.

    I said ide of owned her...im not saying she was anything i like..
    im not talking breeding.....im just saying i love her mouth.and that mouth alone got her through 4..
    she seemed dumb as fuck imo.
    get chewd to fuck...but can compensate it with that fucking vile mouth lol.
    on the vid were STP sell her to Ablizen he says you only get dogs with mouths like that every hundred or so dogs.
    hes probaly right.as that was one freaky mouth.
    like a plug.but with a mouth like a bear trap lol..or one of them men traps.a gin i think there called?
    i suppose you cant have it all ways lol.
     
  11. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    The Molly Bee dogs were low percentage, but that also comes with some side notes as well. She was stolen and she would have had two-three-four more litters to move that percentage point one way or the other. The dogs down off her were 1/2 something else but she gets the credit/blame for the low percentages. It is just how things work.

    In that pedigree listed above the 1/2 brother 1/2 sister breeding is an excellent approach. The Black Betty bitch was a great bitch in her own right but nothing was ever posted other than her producing Spike. Being that one of my older female sis a heavy Snooty bred bitch I am a fan of the breeding from above. But at the time Snooty had been stopped once (some viewed it as a quit) and then quit the 2nd time. A friend of mine was in the hotel room with Snooty hours before his last outing. He says Snooty looked like shit, looked more liked a starved dog than a worked dog. Really bad. He offered to pay the forfeit to stop it, even offering to buy Snooty to prevent the inevitable. Snooty got waxed, had nothing to offer and quit. To some, rank.

    Luckily for me, someone looked past that part of Snooty and bred him to Molly Bee as I cut my teeth on those dogs what seems like a hundred years ago.

    Red Lady won 3 and in her lost the All-Terrain Vehicle was the biggest reason. She was worked into the ground and was a shell of herself at the show. In her loss, she looked bad.

    Again fortunately for me, and for the game, someone saw past her short comings in the box and bred her to Spike.

    S
     
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  12. c_note

    c_note CH Dog

    Snooty quit tho. Why do you feel it’s ok to use him in a program if gameness is your highest goal? Just a question.
     
  13. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    This morning I bumped into a really old friend at the store. His son was my best friend all thru elementary and junior high. He did dogs back in the 60's-70's-80's. I walked his dogs when I was 10-11 years old and although I have never tried drugs that are considered to be addictive, I can see how things can grab you and seem to never let go. For me it has been the dogs.

    He is older now and does not get around all that well. In his 70's and out of the dogs for quite some time he always asks about the dogs and the 'game'. He was disliked by most as he was boisterous and loud mouthed and had an intimidating look, plus he used curse words and curse phrases that had yet to be invented. Although he was disliked by most he was respected by all. If he showed up there were two things that were just about a guarantee. You were going to get bit, and bit hard. And two, it was going to last all night.

    Back to the original topic. He was hard on the dogs, brutal in comparison to others. It was once described as the actual match was the easiest thing the dog ever experienced as he believed in game dogs. They may not have been dead game dogs but they did walk up to the door and peek in to see what dead game dogs looked like. That hard.

    So this morning I asked him his thoughts about breeding for gameness or making gameness a priority in selecting two dogs. I was shocked by his response, part because of how true it is, but mostly because I managed to miss that nugget way back when.

    He never factored gameness in selecting two of his dogs when being bred. It was understood. He asked me if I would go to the bank get all my money then ride up the road with a dog who only had three legs? He reminded me of his son of Red Boy called JR. This dog showed his willingness to die a number of different times. Zero mouth. Zero ability. The other son of Red Boy was just as game but had mouth and ability. "If I were breeding for game dogs it would not have mattered which one I bred to". He bred to the dog that had winning attributes because the game (as I learned it from him) is about winning.

    So that has been my approach to the dogs from the very beginning, maybe 1979 or so. I never left home with a dog that I did not know in my heart of hearts was game, but I never left home with that being my most important trait/most coveted trait.

    Then he said the biggest change in the game was peddling but he put a spin on it I had not heard in a number of years. He said people can buy a dog off a dog and sell puppies. They can buy a dog a win some matches and sell a bunch of puppies that in turn will sell even more puppies. He said what he seen change the most is way back when people would go the extra mile not to breed to the dog but breed to the dog that made the dog. Sort of cuts out the middle man.

    It was a good conversation. He is too funny. He is an avid liar even today. His on mother once told us he would rather climb on a telephone pole, stand up there on one leg in the high wind so he could tell you a lie to keep from standing on the ground and have to tell the truth. His own mother.

    He lied about a lot and seldom did he tell the truth, but it was often said he might know what the truth is, but on Saturday night he would show up with the truth.

    S
     
  14. stickler

    stickler Banned

    Because I wrote 'names don't matter'. It's just about the program - the breeding system ... and about how dogs like Molly Bee can be bred into your dogs without ...
     
  15. stickler

    stickler Banned

  16. stickler

    stickler Banned

    Ok, I get it now. Maybe just a misunderstanding again.
    Like I said many times, it's not only about gameness. On the other hand it's also not only about winners.
    Even an ace can lose to another ace or a freak. Or can be shown in bad shape ...

    Wished I could explain better what I mean ...
    I also DO NOT NEED to see gameness all the time if at all. Signs is all I need. Because they are telling a story already.
    If a dog bites hard, then is this ALWAYS a good sign ? I'm talking about those who are always trying to bite as hard as possible.
    Together with other signs I might get the picture that his hard mouth is a bad sign. Looks good ... but could still be a bad sign. Just an example.

    People often like the hard and fast scratching dog. But what's wrong with a slow scratching dog ? What's more the type of a game dog ?
    Well, I know what I like better in general. But this does not automatically means I'm doing the 'correct' or best or better way.

    I just like to think about those small details I can see. And a good acting dog who is only showing good signs and no bad signs at all is mostly a good one.
    And if I 'smell' a bad sign or bad signs, well, then It's almost like I have to see that dog quit. I simply can ... aaahhh I do not write this ... lol
    Well well well ??? hhmmm I just can not have them curs around me. lol And a cur to me is not just the one who quits, it matters to me how they quit.
    I won't call an honest dog who quit in 0:xx a cur if he is still a good one. I would keep a dog like that as a schooling dog and he would get the same care as the best dog on the yard. Well, almost.
    A cur is a cur, and this can be seen. This can be even seen in puppies or whole litters already. But this might be a little to early to judge ... lol
    Curs can be detected the way they move, the way they act, the way they look, the way this, the way that.
    I TRY not to be harder on them 'curs', but I guess it's coming from inside and I just wanna see them quit as soon as possible.
    Please, quit. Asshole ! lol But who is the idiot if the dog does not quit ? lol

    That's why I like to raise and keep 'good' game dogs. Game dogs just perform better and they are the safer bet.

    People are culling game dogs if the feel they can not win. And I simply won't cull a game one. No way. Well, those dogs can be some real nice teddy bears. :D
    Also showing bad signs to me is no reason to cull, if he did not quit YET. And I know I do not like to cull, so I need to keep them good game dogs.
    I do not need to buy 20-30 big money dogs, all I need is 1 or 2 well bred dogs/pups to start with. Selection, selection, selection ...
     
  17. stickler

    stickler Banned

    What I was trying to say is: I agree with you guys. Guess, I just wished you would also agree with me. But no problem \m/:D
     
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  18. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I do not know much about Bat but I believe (but will have to double check) there was another male in that litter when bred back to the Vindicator and Rosie blood made some real nice dogs.

    I will ask this weekend when I am at the old spot.

    S
     
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  19. c_note

    c_note CH Dog

    I understand that, but that would be breeding off a cur tho. You wouldn’t breed to a phenomenal performer, but you would breed to a cur? Or are you just saying she could have been bred to a certain type of dog instead of another like herself? I can see breeding her to say, Buck, Sandman, or some Homer stuff. You know, a game dog with some ability... not Snooty tho


    I’m just tryin to understand breeding her to Snooty. If he was mine, the game would be fucked up... he wouldn’t have made it
     
  20. c_note

    c_note CH Dog

    We agree, for the most part. I think the disconnect is you are preaching gameness like we don’t value it and we are preaching ability and bite like YOU don’t value it. I think we would all closer agree if we were looking at the same dogs in the flesh, together, at the same time
     
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