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Breeding for traits

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by RedRievera, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. blueboy

    blueboy Big Dog

    Think you should go to church on Sunday Slim and convince him to join
     
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  2. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I am sure church would not hurt me in the least...LOL

    I will reach out to him and see if he is interested.

    S
     
  3. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I'd bet it is the case with most every line out there.

    It is not that I think any one trait is any better or any more important than the other, mostly because I have never bred enough dogs for my opinion or theories to have weight.

    What I do think is that the game is/was/has been all about winning. Even talking dogs with people who have bred the greats, bred to the greats or even bred to chase down the greats I have never heard one say anything about preserving gameness. They only need enough of each trait to win on a certain night. And the next time out they may need a totally different trait so one has to breed for them all.

    It also all ties together in accurate and inaccurate pedigrees. Someone who looks at a pedigree and breeds accordingly without the selection process is on a slippery slope.

    Some used the hung paper to hide his secret and some used it to sell puppies. Both tie to ego and ego is tied to winning. If anyone ever had the chance to have a conversation with Mr. Ozzie Stevens he was so hooked on winning his way he would go out with a German Shephard so he could say he did it first. He had an ego and a self confidence that was ten times his actual size. He did not got Buck to produce more dogs, he got Buck because Buck could win matches.

    Thru selection Buck turned out to be the most prolific producer ever (my opinion). But as well as Buck produced there is a line of Buck dogs down this way that won a bunch of matches and Buck gets a lot of credit. They had access to a Buck/Chinaman/Panther male for awhile and the mouth amped up in the Buck dogs and the red got a little deeper red, but a Buck dog nonetheless.

    It happened. It happens. It will always happen.

    Anytime money and competition collide, the rarity is when competition prevails.

    S



     
  4. stickler

    stickler Banned

    The game is all about winning ... that must be true plus those exceptions to the rule ;)
    Would like to show you what a breeder once wrote me, but I don't have the letter at hand. :-O:(( First time ever ...
    So I have to use my own little brain again :D

    He told me why HE IS NOT interested in matching dogs and was not in years. ;)
    ... Well, how can I write down a couple of well written pages in short :-/
    ... Well, the game has changed ... and mainly not for good ... and he simply was not willing to risk loosing his dogs. He told me about a couple of those big raids ... he only went to a few selected shows ... without cameras and things like that ... old school.
    ... Then it was about those big shows ... and those big kennel names :D ... and about the 'new style' people who are doing these dogs and that lots of them are not willing to stretch their 'investment' for too much ... they want the quick win and the quick big money ... lots of fake shows (sdj) ... and and and ...
    ...
    He said he is doing his own way and does not need any outside opinion about his own dogs. He also said he's not the only one doing it this way, but it's a dying species ... Most of the oldtimers are all gone ... who will keep it going ?
    ...
    Then he was explaining to me what HE is breeding for ... the game dog ! He also mentioned some friends who are pretty much like him in this sense ... trying to preserve the game dog.
    Around 80% of his dogs used for breeding got the same style. The style he likes most. He said he believes this style requires more gameness ... or just shows more of the signs of a real game dog ...
    80% of his broodstock got this style. What about those other 20% ? ... ability, stamina, wind, finesse (brain), mouth, ... just to freshen things up, more or less.
    He said he gets 3-4 dogs out of ten, who will fit into his standard/numbers for brood ... if he raises them !
    He also got those dogs who got all the traits needed for competition. Also dogs with different styles, of course.

    His brood bitches had to be real game in first place. If she got good teeth, body structure etc then he would try her out, and if she is producing the required numbers he was breeding for (gameness, style and character), then she will be used for future brood.
    He kept 3 bitches for brood. He kept bitches with different qualities, i.e. bitches 'with a trait', like ability, and who will 'throw' this trait to some degree. But his main brood bitch always got 'the style' and threw it.
    His studs was another story. They had to be full package dogs with all the traits needed for competition. With all of them good traits on a high average level at least. But this was his numbers. 80% bred with the same style type dogs and 30-40% broodstock if he raises them.

    What I wanna say is this: there are still some of them good and real breeders around ... who are doing their own thing and where it is about preserving gameness first. Those guys for sure do not like to cross, but will from time to time if needed. Selection, as always, is the key.

    I don't know what the new owners are doing with his dogs now, but I'm pretty sure the numbers in these dogs have changed quickly, it's not the breeders numbers anymore.
    Most of the 'new' bred dogs are inbred on a male who was sired by a male who was a member of the breeder's 10-20% club, the sub-strain. How many times was this male bred ? Exactly one time. This dog was 'the sub strain' from his breeding program (10%). The dog won 2 over Bolio dogs in quick fashion.
    The breeders old 80% is now probably 20%. And his old sub-strain now is the 'new main line'. The sub strain (ability, brain) is the new average.
    And I for sure don't like the fact ~X(
    But I got a key, or maybe the key, to turn these numbers around again.
    I got males of his last stud's first breeding. The same breeding never produced another male. The dam of the stud is representing the old breeder 80% dogs and she was bred to the 'sub strain dog' to produce the breeder's last stud, a ch dog. The stud then was bred back to his dam to produce the 'new foundation'. Only females + my males.
    And it's a huge different if you double breed on the sire or the dam.
    I want to keep HIS numbers. 80% solid breeding + 20% for some extras. 3-4 out of ten for brood. Means 6-7 for schooling or show.
    My focus will be on those 80% solid game dogs with 'the style'. The other 20% are just for fun or some hybrid vigor.
    And I also prefer the style and character coming from his main strain over the rest, but it never hurts having a head or a back end dog at hand :D

    And I'm happy to add that my male was not the smallest ever, because he was and still is worth his weight in gold. :D

    Went a little bit too off-topic ? :-?

     
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  5. stickler

    stickler Banned

    ... losing his dogs ...
     
  6. stedz

    stedz Top Dog

    IMG_1677.jpg

    I tried to do some research on old man Stidham myself a few years ago. All I could find was this little note to Pete in UFM. I assume it is the same Stidham.
     
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  7. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Does he breed the game plugs too, or just the dogs with desirable traits?

    Not being doubtful or disrespectful, but if a guy has a ton of experience within a family and has bred those dogs for a number of generations he does not necessarily have to ride up and down the road and win matches to proof his dogs. He can have 'winning caliber' dogs and never leave the house. I have seen that on a number of yards.

    The key to maintaining that yard for the long haul is to send a few out here and there and see how they measure up against the outside world. A person can only beat up his own yard for so long, as over time the dogs will become pretty much even and they will beat each other into a draw.

    I appreciate the breeder you mention, or better said breeders like him, as that is where I shopped. All I cared about was the ride, I provided the vehicle, they provided the gas. Sometimes it was a better ride home than others. I forwarded that to the breeder and it got factored in going forward.

    Same process as you mentioned, but with the addition of a little bit of outside information.

    I feel like both can be and have been very successful over the years.

    I'm a fan of both, mostly because I have seen them work.

    S
     
  8. stickler

    stickler Banned

    He wasn't breeding or producing game plugs at all. [-(B-)

    Well, it's not breeder vs show. They both have to go hand in hand of course.
    There will always be the action guys and the gamblers. And every one can produce his own dogs. And there will always be the good, the bad and the ugly.
    There will always be good dogs, but without some good real breeders the average will go down. Numbers may still get up, but ...

    Those who got dogs from him mostly showed them ... and won in good fashion. Alone those with online peds got a very good record.
    Can't tell you more than 3 l's and no dog who quit at a show.
    There are still good people breeding his dogs. Even with no crosses. But it's private stock, and that's how it should be with these dogs.
    But 93,639% of these dogs are inbred on the last stud. Not what I'm looking for. With the right dogs it only takes maybe 2 litters to get what I'm looking for ... to breed to my male :D
    I'm pretty sure that the male I need for my mission is still kept on ice. Need someone who is doing a breeding of this male to a bitch of my choice.
    Would like to raise the litter myself and breed a female back to the sire. This would give me 'most probably' all I need for the next 20-30 years :D Simple ! lol

    And then I would also like to have 1, 2 or 3 guys like you around me. Well, but of the younger type :P

    Yes, it takes both sides, of course. Of course !

    Your situation, slim, sounds very comfortable. For you and the breeder of your dogs.
    That's a perfect combination of both sides. No one has to do it all alone. Get some help.
    What if he stops breeding dogs one day ? Bad question, but ...

    Information and experience is also nice to have, of course. A show well made is a show ...

    Well, maybe you first have to take a look at these dogs by yourself ... then you would agree ;):D:-B
    And you also would understand better, why I don't wanna start with a cross. I first need a solid and pure foundation.
    My male could be a nice cross to almost everything, but I can only get 2-6 litters of this male. Using this male as a cross is NO OPTION. No pups will be sold.
    Later I will get many more options to cross the blood, if needed or wanted.

    I'm pretty sure IM would have a couple of stories to tell about Stidham and those around him, but I think he got better things to do right now.
    Would bet he even mentioned him already here on the board. Anyone got some free time for checking older threats ? lol
    Red Boy, ofr, ofrn, Norrod bred dogs, Hemphill, ...
     
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  9. stickler

    stickler Banned

    I just like to talk about all those things. Would like to talk more in private about it, but I seldom meet a dogman theses days.
    I write here because I'm looking for insight and info about breeding etc. and I also can learn from my own writings, just because I have to think about it one more time and again ...
    It's more like brainstorming for me, nothing else.

    It's clear that I'm not a breeder or a very experienced dogman.
    Over 20 yrs ago I wrote a letter to a breeder in the us. Saw a bitch I liked and the ped showed her out off a bitch he bred. I started getting the sdj in '96 and in one of the first journals I saw his name and the dogs he is breeding. I thought that they will be most probably game plugs if at all.
    But game plugs bred like that would be still ok for a foundation cross or something, if they act somewhat like the bitch. Like I said I liked her a lot .
    So I was just asking him, also put some pics and stories to the letter ... and got an answer.
    I got an answer ? Me ? lol A young greenhorn and a city boy from far away ... ? Well, I'm from the same country his family is coming from. And so it goes ... :D
    He was writing about his ancestry right with the first letter and later also mentioned a few dogs ... who the hell am I to get all of this personal stuff to read ?
    Amazing :D
    With my second letter I was straight asking about 'his plugs' and why I can't see them in top competition. :-BAnd I was asking about his philosophy. ;)
    And, as fate would have it, I got my answer. I wasn't expecting to get that kind of honesty and wisdom back.
    I felt right from the start that this is what I need. I would be happy to get some of that game plug blood. Just to see what those deep game dogs look like.
    On the other hand I never got the feeling that we are talking about game plugs at all. Could this be really true or possible at all ?
    This is by far the longest letter I ever got. This letter alone would make a great book. That's my bible. This was just the 2. letter and I got 40 or so more over the years.

    I guess, the point I want to make is that I was NOT looking to get some of his dogs to breed my own. I just wanted to get his dogs. Dogs bred by him, the rest did not matter to me at all. Who am I to believe that I'm a better breeder ?
    All I can try is to get as close to his 'philosophy' as it gets, because it's perfect already (as I see it).
    I was not trying to do better as he did. But I'm still trying to be maybe one day 50% as good as he was with the dogs.
    He got my full trust with every decision he makes, be it about dogs, me or whatever.

    I got two 6 months old pups and it was clear in a second that these dogs are no plugs, not at all. Well, if this is the game plug stuff then I don't wanna see them crossed dogs :D
    And btw the breeder in over 30 yrs only got 1 cold dog. And what can I say ... a half bro to my pups. :-$ A belly bro to the sire of my pups. How crazy is that :D But I don't blame the bitch :-$
    ...
    My problem now is that the breeder passed. Well, I can't ask him for advise anymore. I can't say anymore "just send me the dogs I need".
    But someone has to make a couple of decisions in the future. He made his last breeding ten or so years ago, so females will be hard to get.
    Means, the bitch I'm looking for is most probably bred by someone else, someone else with a different eye and a different selection.
    Do those new breeder know what I'm looking for ? Do they still have what I'm looking for ?
    Well, I better see for myself, because I know what I'm looking for and what i need.

    I know what it takes to keep the hybrid vigor running in his tight bred dogs. And that's the trick. To keep the hybrid vigor in them inbred and linebred dogs.
    And he was a master of doing this. The time to cross is when you lost hybrid vigor in your dogs. That's the only reason for cross breeding if them dogs are bred right. To get some hybrid vigor from the cross.
    That's why he did his early foundation 'cross breedings'. Well, it's not really that much of a cross, but enough to put tons of hybrid vigor into his family of dogs for generations.
    Some of those later crosses with his dogs were just made for competition. Or as a cross for other families. But HE was not putting new blood/DNA into HIS dogs.

    I just hope that people do know what they are doing ... for the breeder and his great dogs.
    :-B
     
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  10. SOULDOG

    SOULDOG TEMPLE OF THE DOGS

    Slim , would you consider this a line bred dog.
    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=439560
     
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  11. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Since I am not a breeder, nor a pedigree reader, my opinion means squat...and to tie it to the topic 'traits'....

    I think the key to whether this pedigree is in bred, line bred or crossed is based on the traits of Soul Dog's Dawn. If she took the traits of the Red Rocky/Red Ranger/Red Phase or whether the Chavis (RBJ) dogs pushed thru.

    The second would be the cross on the top, is Smokey a Bingo dog or a Red Ranger dog?

    The guy that owns these dogs (you) is the only one that can make the call "inbreeding/line breeding". The guy that is only reading the pedigree (me) can tell you on paper what things look like, but me, or anyone else cant say what you have.

    Some examples as I see it. If the Red Ranger dog is prepotent to show thru to both dogs in the 2nd generation it is a tight line breeding and border line inbreeding because of the father-daughter set on the bottom brought back to the same family on the top (if Smoky is a Red Ranger dog).

    If Smokey is a Bingo dog then you have your first cross when bred to Dawn, and that is only if Dawn is a straight Red Ranger dog. If she is toting some Chavis traits then it gets a little looser and moves from line breeding to the 'area of crosses'.

    My answer would depend on their individual traits. And the end result would be if you know enough about the dogs in the 3rd and 4th to say what 110 II is toting? (Not questioning your knowledge at all, just pointing out breeding two dogs has a lot to do with their parents/aunts/uncles/grandparents, etc, etc,)

    After babbling I would answer your question as it is a line bred dog on Red Rocky with a couple of outs in the 2nd.

    My real answer (and again, not being a smart ass, just pointing out that I am not a breeder) is you tell me, he is not my dog.

    Again, my worthless opinion, I do not think anyone can read a pedigree unless they have personal hands on experience with the dogs involved. Reading pedigrees is a 'much ado about nothing'.

    S
     
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  12. SOULDOG

    SOULDOG TEMPLE OF THE DOGS

    Ok .. the reason I wanted to pick your brain was because the jocko/redboy/hemphill in these dogs.
    I'm going off the Crebb story.
     
  13. stickler

    stickler Banned

    I'm not slim, but would say jocko/redboy/hemphill is line breeding.
     
  14. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I tend to believe the Crebb story, not because I have seen enough dogs to proof it, but because of the person who was there when the exchange was made.

    Even with that said, it is still about individual traits of each dog in the litter that would define line breeding or inbreeding or crosses. The pedigree can scream in breeding when in reality it is a cross, depending n the traits.

    An example (none of these breedings happened, or at least they did not paper them ...LOL)

    If Red Boy was bred to Molly Bee and had three daughters. The first was an all Molly Bee dog, the second was as if Red Boy spit her out himself and the the third was a half and half between the two.

    All three were bred back to Red Boy. Every body on the planet would call this inbreeding on red Boy via a father-daughter breeding.

    In reverse order, the third bitch who carried both the traits of her parents when bred back to Red Boy is a coin flip of what you would get. Based on the traits these are the father-daughter in breedings that make performance dogs and inbred dogs in the same litter.

    The second bitch to Red Boy would be a true in breeding on both paper and in reality. This litter is the hardest to perpetuate because it takes knowledge to complete the selection process going forward to keep a performing dog. (A side note this is why the Red Boy dogs of today seldom stand on their own, their over whelming popularity. People bred them as tight as all get out because it sold puppies. No other line ever has been peddled at the level Red Boy dogs have been peddled)

    Breeding the first bitch back to Molly Bee, who has taken all the Molly Bee traits, is an inbreeding on paper, but in reality it is a copy of the original cross. Again this litter will produce performing dogs as well as dogs that could be bred back to Red Boy and create a pedigree double bred on Red Boy yet still perform without the slippery slope effects of inbreeding on hybrid vigor and performance.

    With all that said, it is the same pedigree for all three breedings. All three pedigrees show an in bred Red Boy dog. And anyone who ever looked at a pedigree would have to say the same, even a re-re like me. But in reality the guy that owns these dogs, raises these dogs and sees exactly what they are/who they are, can actually say, this one is this and that one is that.

    S



     
  15. Forever-So REAL

    Forever-So REAL Quintuple Grand Champion

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  16. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=208451

    This was a female I had about a hundred years ago. The guy that made the breeding was as hands on with the Molly Bee dogs as anyone else. When he left home on Saturday night Mr. Edwards sold a shit load more puppies on Sunday morning. What he seen in Molly II was way more Snooty than Molly Bee, so much so when everyone else referred to her as a Molly Bee bred dog he says she was a Snooty bitch. Even the guy that was selling a lot of puppies put that on her pedigree as he was looking at the pedigrees not standing on top of the dogs.

    We were having a lot of success with the Mims family back then. Red Boy-Snooty-Bolio dogs. Some of the better ones we seen were the ones heavier on the Snooty. He arranged the breeding, it was allowed based on a past friendship and a profound respect for the owner of the female, as the owner of the Jiggs dog said, "You are mixing chicken shit with chicken salad".

    Ramera came out really similar to the Snooty-Red Boy dogs we were getting and when bred back to the Mims family produced the same type dogs. The "Molly Bee" stuff sort of faded. But in the below breeding we call this a Red Boy female with a shot of Molly Bee. When in reality it is a heavier Red Boy the rest Snooty dog. She was a winning dog.

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=58559

    Then when we doubled the Ramera with this dog:

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=539953

    He came out cold as ice. He would stand there and take what ever was given, never offered any resistance, never showed any interests. Completely cold.

    Me not being a breeder and me only having experience with the first two generations, it was explained to me that the Molly Bee blood had made its way to the front. He had not seen cold dogs like him since he had dogs straight off Molly Bee. He looked like Molly Bee, he carried himself like the Molly Bee dogs of old did and he was like a number of those dogs back then, simply cold.

    Me only knowing two generations worth would point the finger and more than likely be wrong. He had 6-8 generations of hands on knowledge and recognized the past in the present. After all those years and all those breedings I would never have got back to the cold dogs off of Molly Bee.

    This is why I think it is impossible to accurately read pedigrees without the first hand experience over time.

    S
     
  17. Forever-So REAL

    Forever-So REAL Quintuple Grand Champion

     
  18. Forever-So REAL

    Forever-So REAL Quintuple Grand Champion

    FYI can't see them peds
     
  19. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

  20. stickler

    stickler Banned

    But this gets easier if all of the dogs in the background were bred by the same kennel and if you know what he is breeding for.
    Gets harder with dogs bred by different folks for different reasons.
    Pedigrees are important to those who know how to read them. But, of course, dogs are far more than just peds.
     
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