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bullterrier apbt cross

Discussion in 'APBT History' started by calikeith, Jun 19, 2008.

  1. rooster

    rooster Banned

    sure we have heard of him!

    Yes he used a lot of bull terrier in his crosses. He liked them for the hard mouth. Bull terriers even today some that I own are very hard mouthed. I have kept APBT, and on average English bull terriers are harder mouthed (the ones I have kept) although lack the wind of the APBT.

    I have some at the moment that are total head cases when it come to other dogs but nice to people. They are however small at 25 to 30 pounds so may gas out (when worked) if bred bigger, at the higher weights. I like small dogs though! They are not show stock, I only select them on what they can do and not looks. They also mature slowly and take about 14-18 months to mature enough for work testing.
  2. Virgil dogs

    Virgil dogs Big Dog

    Your right about that Rooster.They can bite harder than a bulldog and the wind thing is a bummer.You'd think with that big barrel chest that they could go all day,but not so.Old Walter sorted that stuff out though and had some of the best dogs around at that time.I wonder how these modern day dogmen would feel about being blown out by 1/2 a bulldog?
  3. rooster

    rooster Banned

    Yes we both agree the EBT's have great mouths.

    The barrel chest does the opposite for wind. It creates strength but not wind. You need a deep long chest for good wind. More like a greyhound type of chest. I always select for a long chest and not a barrel chest.

    Walter was a good dog man by most accounts. Some people try to put him down which is unfair considering he is unable to defend himself from the grave.

    About dogmen getting pissed about being blown away by half a bulldog. Well not exactly more like 75% a bulldog. English bull terriers were a cross between a bull dog and a terrier. Then they had other stuff thrown in like dalmation etc.

    But then they were considered too soft compared to the bulldawgs of the day, so were bred back into the gamest bulldawgs by a gentleman called Colonel Lyons (creating the brindle variety). That makes English bull terriers over 75% bulldawg or more lol

    But yeah I get your point, they would of course be very pissed. Stormer was detested and his memory still is. Frisco sport was not liked either.
    On average they cannot compete with fastline APBT's but once in a while they do!

    Anyway try it out, why not ?
  4. Virgil dogs

    Virgil dogs Big Dog

    Damn son you know your bulldog history.Thats very refreshing to hear from a real student of the breed.Ive been a student for 25 years and think I know less now that when I began.Someday I would like to buy you a beer and pick your brain a little as mine has been picked clean.lol
  5. rooster

    rooster Banned

    I'm sure you know a damn site more than me. I studied quite a lot on the pitbull dawgs of England and Ireland. So therefore know a bit about the origin of those dogs that went to the USA.

    I also live in SE Asia so that beer maybe impossible so here make it a virtual one! Also living where I do allows me to speak more freely (although not entirely) freely on message boards.

    Incidentally although battle crosses between breeds, do produce awesome dogs from time to time, it is hard for the breeder to repeat this success a second time because of the scatter. So they are sometimes considered "freaks". Freak kind of sounds dis-respectful to these dogs but is more or less accurate. More like "planned freaks" as most of these matings are planned. It is interesting to note that there was never a second stormer or a secomd Frisco sport. But if you were going to do a battle cross out of the APBT for the fighting pit then the bull terrier*APBT cross would be the one to do in my opinion (but not from American kennel club bull terriers, no offence). The American bull terrier club was boasting on Animal Planet that they have succeded after a long struggle to breed out dog on dog agression in the Show Bull terrier.

    The Bull terriers used in the UK in the make up of the Psycho strain with the Staff or the Stormer strain were mainly from Irish badger trials stock. They were already badger dogs (at least already working), not just strightforward KC show stock! Could you get these badger dogs in the states, I doubt it; as they are very difficult to get in the UK. Badger trials were still legal back in the days of Stormer's dam.
    Also if you were living in the States there is so much good APBT stock to choose from then not much point, unless perhaps you were looking for a good mouth or power to add to your gene pool you could add it in and then back cross. But as I said getting a good bull terrier outside Russia Poland or British Isles would not be easy anymore. There are some very good ones in Russia. If you have ever seen the "All Russian Dog Fighting Championships" then you would see them. Incidentally there have been some very impressive little Staffords in that show. But they don't have strict weight classes, they choose opponents on the day lol. I've seen a little Russian Staffy snap (and I mean snap) the neck of a much larger Caucasian Sheppard dog. The owner of the staffy was upset the fight was over so quickly as he said "I don't know if he's game yet". Which of coure is true lol!
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2008
  6. You cant say 1/2 Bulldog because the EBT is at least just another kind of Bulldog....both ( APBT and EBT ) are from one familie, but the EBT line was badly hurt from showbreding.....
    If you see very old pictures from EBT you will see nearly APBTs ( true Bulldogs )....
  7. rooster

    rooster Banned

    That is correct they are. However the later dogs were better than the original Hink's dogs. As I said in the other post Lyons was testing them in Africa and found the Hink's dogs to soft. He later then crossed them back into bulldawgs to create the brindle strain. He did this with the aim of making them more game. The brindle and the white was later mixed up again.

    Glyn Jones was a show breeder and very important in development of the miniature dog. Although show breeding it is documented that he tested all his dogs against badgers before allowing them to be sold. They had to perform against badgers first.(imagine show breeders doing that now before entering crufts lol):D EDITED THIS TO SAY ALL THE PUPS HE SOLD WERE FROM PARENTS TESTED AGAINST BADGERS. THESE WERE THEN SOLD FOR PETS SHOW BREEDING OR BADGER DOGS.

    Not all the show traits were bad in my opinion. The roman nose was a good adaption (just my opinion). I have an article that explains why it was done and why it gives the dog a better bite than the standard bulldawg nose. The short legs is not big deal either for if you want a working terrier in difficult terrain then I prefer short legs. The worst physical thing they did was create this huge barrel chest that totally destroys their wind. My dogs don't have that I select it out. People make a big deal out of the length of leg and forget the chest. However the worst thing and most over-riding factor that the show breeders did was too breed out gameness ON PURPOSE! This happened in the USA more than anywhere (watch the series on the bull terrier on Animal planet and you can even hear them bragging about it).
    Fortunately there are places that have been breeding bull terriers not for show. Russian has been breeding them for the pit for donkey's years. They never even used to use the APBT in Russia, the bull terrier was the dog of choice for many years and even now is frequently used and bred for the pit in Russia. A similar dog is the dog of choice in Pakistan (the call it a Hink's) and in Norhthern Ireland and Eire there also have been some decent dogs (pilot, Carl's the Guvernor etc) and there were decent bull terriers in the early USA (most of these modern versions) and not looking like the Hink's one at all but more like the modern day one just better deeper chests and more agile (and a lot smaller). In Uk there have were other decent dogs such as the Bedlamite kennels etc (Bedlamite dogs all killed by the RSPCA)
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2008
  8. Rebs

    Rebs Banned

    Great thread!
  9. beanieman

    beanieman Banned

    CH pshyco was a full blood irish stafford bullterier he lost his fift battle against ch stormer he was a cros between an eng bull terrier and a stafforshire bullterrier.
    and considerd to be one of the finnest irish lines
  10. Ch Psycho was an 1/8 English Bull Terrier mate... ;)
  11. rooster

    rooster Banned

    He meant Stormer was half Ebt, just the grammar was not clear.

    He meant that Psycho who made that strain of Irish staffords famous was defeated by Stormer: The Stormer dog being one half EBT.

    Well that is what I think he meant!:D
  12. beanieman

    beanieman Banned

    check out the info on thist site in the history page and psycho page that will make it clear a full report on how the show happent www.keetchs-irish-staffords.com
  13. pit#5

    pit#5 Banned

    Two quick notes - if you look at old pictures of Pit bulls from years ago you see versions that seem to look a bit bull terrier like which show a bit of over lap here and there .
    Also on utube I saw a picture of a bull terrier fighting a bull these dogs can be game.
  14. Stormers Dam was a 3/4 English Bull..
    Ch Psycho was the result of a Brother Sister mating and was name Psycho was given to him because of his nature as a young Dog.
    He was later sold on to Stevie B and His name was changed to Ch Hagler

    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2008
  15. rooster

    rooster Banned

    Stormer's dam was 3/4 EBT but Stormer was 1/2 EBT. Check out the pedigree on the staffie side and you will see.

    As for Psycho, the line he came from had a lot of English bull terrier in it but was watered down a hell of a lot by the time Psycho was born. Yes his name was changed to Hagler which confuses the hell out of a lot of people, because there was a famous battle cross badger dog called Hagler as well (with EBT in it to). Therefore Psycho just became known as the "Ghost".
  16. pit#5

    pit#5 Banned

    SBT and EBT are better then given credit for and seems that APBT come off of them.
  17. rooster

    rooster Banned

    you are right Keith
  18. Aye that other Hagler Dog got me confused aswell!
    I've heard that the Roman Nose gives a stronger bite to the Ebt? Is this true and If yes how?
  19. pit#5

    pit#5 Banned

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]James Hinks decided, therefore, to create a bull-and-terrier whose looks would better reflect its noble character. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When Hinks set about this task, he enlisted the aid of the white English terriers in his kennel. These dogs, whiich are also now extinct, were elegant of line, graceful of bearing and straight of leg. Eventually Hinks was able to make smooth the misshapen form of the bull-and-terriers and to establish in its place the more graceful lines of the white English terrier, albeit with more bone and muscularity than the white terrier possessed. [/FONT]
    [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Fighting-dog purists scoffed at this new look and complained that prettying up the stalwart bull-and-terriers would rob them of their pugnacity, which was their crowning virtue. To prove his critics wrong Hinks sent his female Puss, who weighed but 40 pounds, out to do battle with a 60-pound female of the old-fashioned type in London in 1862. A five-pound note and a case of champagne rode on the outcome of the match. In fewer than 30 minutes Puss dispatched her opponent while suffering no more than a few minor scratches on her own elegant self. According to one writer Puss went off to take a red ribbon in a conformation class at a legitimate dog show later in the day. (Another writer claims that Puss took the top prize that day.) [/FONT]

    Hinks and other aficionados of the new bull-and-terrier added a drop of Dalmatian blood here, a dollop of greyhound there, perhaps a few dashes of Spanish pointer, too, and, some say, even foxhound. There is also evidence of a borzoi cross entering the mix along the way, that evidence revealing itself in the convex profile of the bull terrier's head. The final result of Hinks and company's makeover of the old bull-and-terrier was a dog that came to be known simply as the bull terrier, a breed with a unique look that fanciers to this day would call handsome rather than beautiful.
    Before he died in 1878 James Hinks had placed his breeding stock in the hands of other fanciers. Ten years after Hinks' death the first breed standard for bull terriers was published by the newly formed Bull Terrier Club in England. The breed caught the fancy of Americans as well, and the bull terrier was recognized by the American Kennel Club (AKC) in 1895.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2008
  20. pit#5

    pit#5 Banned

    James Hinks (1829-1878),
    Creator of the modern Bull Terrier.​
    1 person likes this.

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