Clouse blood

I like yo style Crazy Horse.

 

Holy crap !

IM wrote:
But the name of the Irish Old Family Reds, it is self explanatory.

It does not even mentioned the color of the nose.
And I really can give a shit about a nose's color. Could be green, I don't care much.
But it's about genetics facts and about to see 'from where the wind is blowing'.

And when I read about old family red noses, then, sorry, but a red dog with a red nose comes up in my mind.
Because the name should be self explanatory, too.

Do you guys believe when you get a red out of two blacks, that the red pup is still black, because that's what the paper says ?

Ok, simple basic genetic.

B = BLACK
b = red

Black is dominant, red is recessive.

1. BB x BB = ? BB (black)

2. bb x bb = ? bb (red)

3. Bb x Bb = ? What's the color of the sire & dam ?
Offspring can be black or red.

4. Bb x bb = ? What's the color of the male ?
Offspring can be ?

5. BB x Bb = ? What's the color of the sire & dam ?
Offspring can be ?

6. BB x bb = ?

Answer to

1. black sire, black dam, black offspring.

2. red sire, red dam, red offspring.

3. black sire, black dam, red and/or black offspring.

4. black sire, red dam, offspring can be black and/or red (odds =1/4 black, 3/4 red)

5. black sire, black dam, offspring MUST be black.

6. black sire, red dam, offspring MUST be black.

The red comes up only when it can't hide behind the big bad black any longer, only when the black is gone.
Dominant / recessive

Every single breeding with a BB dog can only produce black dogs, because no matter what the other side is made of, 1 of the 2 B's will show up first.

The ped you showed might be of the BB x bb type, if there would be at least 1 red pup, then the sire would not be a BB, but a Bb dog.
But it's still not save to say he is BB, because you just don't know, if the red is just hidden.
But the odds are that this is a BB x bb breeding.
I would call this a cross.
ALL PUPS from this combination got the Bb combi. They can't be red. They must have a black nose.
If you breed a son (Bb) back to the mom (bb), then you will get mostly red noses (percentage wise).

You can't get black dogs out of 2 reds, so you have to cross the black in, this way you will only get blacks in the first generation.
Well, however, getting a yard full of black Old Family Red Noses sounds funny.
If you breed for red noses only (bad idea, of course, but it's done, it's called ofrn), and you see black ones, then it should be clear, that it must have been crossed into the red. Or you can just ignore the fact.
Congratulation, you all got it right.
Are those black ofrn better than the red ones, or what's the reason for crossing in the black stuff over and over again ?
Could this have something to do with quality ?
Probably not. Most probably you are already using the best, and now all you wanna get is a little better dogs. Better than best.
Good luck !

 

Stickler you are struggling with what flows thru a dog's veins and who bred them! Nose or coat doesn't change a dog's genetic makeup or who bred them! BB & Bb have nothing to do with Black Widow being more OFRN than alot of OFRN dogs today. Nothing also changes the fact Old Family and Old Family Reds have been extinct before OFRN breeders started breeding OFRN dogs.

 

Like Floyd B said its not rocket science ..You cant change what a dog is.The most educated words in the world cant change the blood in his veins.

 

But being a good sport.I will give some credit to stikler.he is one of the smartest sob s i seen get shredded on this board.

 

No, I'm actually one of the dumbest on here.
Because I can't quit !

And again, I thought it all over again. And I came to the conclusion that every single pit today is OFRN !

There is no other answer.
The way IM explains his breeding theority clearly shows, IT'S ALL OFRN.
Try to proof me wrong. Show me ONE dog who is not an ofrn dog, please.
Maybe I can get an idea then ?

Colby ? OFRN !
Lightner ? OFRN !
Feeley ? OFRN !
Henry ? OFRN !
Corvino ? OFRN !
uuhhm
Dibo, Black Widow, Ch Spike ? OFRN !
Patrick, Bourdreaux, Bolio, Bullyson ? All OFRN !
The list will go on for forever.
Hugs to you all for all of your help.
I got it now !

 

No sign of disrespect from me who has never owned a OFRN dog and comes from a country where they probably have never existed as a strain. Having said that I believe stickler that it would be in everyone's interest to read Iron Mike's post in the Old Family Red thread. It's on page 5 and is post number 88. This will throw light on the claims you are making in post 66 of this thread.

 

Here it is:

I knew Jacob long before he got Geronimo and Dixie. Long before Ron came along.
I remember when Clarence Yates got Mitzie as a pup in 1968. He was so proud of her he put something about her in 1968 Bloodlines Journal about her.
This was the same year Irish Jerry wrote to the Bloodlines Journal.
Jake never had "PURE" OFRN".

OFRN is a strain with in the APBT breed. The breed it self was made up by many crosses of fighting dogs from Europe.

Now when people state "pure" I have to ask them what they mean by pure.
Not all the dogs in the pedigree can trace back to Irish imported dogs.

So what do I considered the heaviest bred OFRN dogs?
I would have to say a dog who has nothing but red nose dogs in its' pedigree for over 7 generations.
All the litter mates to those dogs were red nose as well.
Looks isn't all of it, but from stock who is known to bred down from Irish imported dogs.
Who today do I know have dogs bred like that?
I do.......and no they are not for sale!

Since there are Colby fans on this forum, let make from reference of Joseph.
I looked and couldn't find a link or cross post about OFRN and why they were so sought after.
In the Colby book, the Fox's book, Meek's book, Stratton's books and many others,
OFRN strain took after the foundation breed of the Old Family Reds.

As I already wrote, each Klan in Ireland kept the dogs to them selves and family bred them by inbreeding and tight line breeding.
As the books I named, often they wrote to restore gameness you have to breed son to mother, brother to sister and daughter to father.-Joseph Colby.
Inbreeding on alike traits.
Back in those days they didn't know they were compounding on alike genes which the gameness trait was dominate in those dogs.

The Irish dogs in Ireland was culled for congenial faults and curs.
Of all the imported stock to make up the APBT, this one lone breed of dog had the ability to do so.
Others did but not very many times. To this day there are many bloodlines which still don't have the ability to be heavily inbred at all, besides for generations.
Many back in the late 1800's and early 1900's people started to find this trait, which originated in Ireland could be found in the decedents of the dogs import from there.
Years later these dogs of the APBT were referred to as Old Family Red NOSE.

All modern combat dogs have OFRN in their pedigree.
Almost every top quality dog you will find Dibo or from the family of dogs which created him in their pedigree.
Dibo was a product of Niece to Great Uncle breeding, direct line breeding.
Bambi's mother, her mother was a litter mate to Corvino's aka Hubbard's Bounce.
Now if you believe the pedigree of Zebo, this also true. Either way the litter still produced top quality dogs.

Eli and Red Devil, who born 6 years apart, were some of the best Pit Dogs for generations.
Red Devil was popular in Your Friend and Mine and Sporting Dog Journal for the first 10 years and some later.
Both way back traces to the same family of dogs.
Some of the best dogs in history was Red Devil/Eli crosses.
In modern times the best known reported performance dog was from this cross and her ancestors, Db. Gr. Ch. Tornado.

I will agree in the last few decades the strain of OFRN has been on a decline.
There is getting more and more variances with in the strain.
This is why the private register OFRNR was created was to try and preserve their heritage and the quality they were once known for.


I don't know what you read there. I only know what I can read in this story.
It's always the same. And I agree to most everything he says.
But, unfortunaly, I can't agree to everything.
And I don't get your point, Harky.
You may believe everything you read, I'm just a little bit more sceptical. I'm just the stickler.

And to put some more oil to the fire:

Mayfield dogs = OFRN !
Congratulation, guys !

 

Close dogs are no part in them ofrn dogs, talking about the dogs that made the ofrn (strain within the breed of the apbt) foundation. OFRN's are a part in them Clouse dogs, sure. So what ? Clouse dogs may have more of the same foundation blood, just like the ofrn's, but hey, so what ?

 

Even if IM likes to use them as this.

 

If Clouse blood is ofrn, then it can't be too wrong to call him, Bert Clouse, an ofrn breeder, or an breeder of ofrn.
Breeder of a strain WITHIN the strain of ofrn.
RRRRhight ?

Pfff, must always look like I hate those little red mofo's.
lol
No, I love them little red TERRIERS !

 

I don't even want to call em bulldogs, lol.
Game dogs, yeah. Pit dogs, yeah. Pit dogs as we like em, yeeaahh, but ... lol.

 

I'm really trying hard to agree to everything as much as possible, as long as it seems to be true for at least 0,1%.
Check my older posts and you will see.
Just to get to the next point. And than it will show, if it's working and how it's working.
If it's not working anymore, I just go back to the previous point and check again.
And if it's wrong, it mostly stays wrong.

 

It's me again.

I do wonder why I don't get all of my questions answered.
I'm trying my best to do the same.
Are you all still looking for the right simple answers to those simple questions ?

 

Truth really can be a pain in the assss.

 

I'm sure, it's too much, but ...

It seems like people don't get anymore what they see, what they can't see is what they get.

Ok, next try.

That should be easy to check over. Just let's pick a dog.

Ok, why not Dibo.

Now show me the 6, uuhhhhm, 7 generations of pure red noses in his background. Or was it the other way. If so, then show the the 6, uuhhhhm, 7 generations of pure red noses in front of him. Please.
And if you could point me in the right direction where to start, then it would be a great help.
And it must be clear, you can't start directly with Dibo himself.

 

Oh and btw. another interesting point about Clouse dogs.

NO DIBO !

before you ask ... yeah, same foundation, I know. lol

And NO DIME !

The only strain without both of them, I believe.