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Clouse blood

Discussion in 'APBT Bloodlines' started by Big Game, Aug 22, 2006.

  1. stickler

    stickler Banned

    hahaha hohoho
     
  2. Iron Mike

    Iron Mike CH Dog

    Dan is Dan from Dragonline Kennels. I also owned Tulsa Red that was bred by Otter. I'm really surprised the people who can't read a pedigree or hadn't been to Bert Clouse's yard. As I wrote before, from Cid to Red Bomber to Vic to Zod these Clouse dogs were red/red nose and had OFRN blood in them. Did Bert breed to black nose or produce them, yes but the majority was red/red nose and had OFRN. Try reading Ch. Butcher Boy's pedigree from Clyde Mason. It is almost all OFRN. Bert used a lot of Skaggs' blood with Butcher Boy and Stabber (which had a lot of Corvino in him) as the corner stones of his bloodline. Patrick's Goldy was a red/red nose like her mother Susie and daughter Red Baby. Goldy was bred by Frank Creed to Norm Geltz' Bosco. Half brother/sister breeding off Stabber. This is where Patrick dogs got their red/red nose in dogs like Gr. Ch. Buck, Little Tater, etc. This is why B.K. used Patrick to cross too as Otter did in Ch. Tonka Bear R.O.M. and Indian Moon. In these case there was more Bolio in those dogs. Also from black dogs which were dominate to produce black nose when bred. The fact remains there is still a lot of OFRN in these dogs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2014
    JoeyStuCatz likes this.
  3. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    Good post IM..I dont really understand why someone would try to discredit the blood that makes up a dog.It doesnt and never will make sence to me.It seems here its just for the arguement sake.And I could prob add a few other things to the list.But fuck it I know what it is and hopefully anyone reading this thread tha wants to know will do some study and see that Clouse does have alot of OFRN in them.Its not hard to see.
     
  4. stickler

    stickler Banned

    So 'alot' of OFRN in dogs makes them OFRN actually ?
    There is Patricks in Frisco dogs, does this make Frisco a Patricks dog ?
    There is Clouse in them Norrod ofrn dogs, so can I call them Norrod dogs also Clouse dogs ?
    Is 'a lot' enough to call a line after them ?
    Is 'a lot' the same as mostly or mainly ?
    Is ignoring all the other influence part of a breeding-style ?

    OFRN's are a strain of family bred dogs. Clouse dogs is another strain of family bred dogs.
    If it makes you people feel better to call your dogs ofrn then do so. Register them as ofrn dogs and sell them as whatever you want.
    Clouse is ofrn. KZB is ofrn. Congratulation !! Strains of pure ( I mean alot) rednoses who are bred like an ofrn should be bred.
    WOW !
    It's not that hard to see,true, with open eyes and an open mind ! But this could be the problem here.
    Offspring off a dog like that ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [396232] :: MR. STABBER CLOUSE can be registered as ofrn ? The Terrible Til' bitch is excactly bred the same way as the Jack dog. So, is there a difference in them dogs ?
     
    O.S.O. NAS likes this.
  5. young muscle

    young muscle Big Dog

    I think what I.M is saying Clouse dogs have heavy ofrn influence (if bred as ped says)
    You can not argue with genetics.
    Imo Frisco could be labeled as a Eli dog, a carver (type) dog (because carver didn't breed him) ,a Garner dog, to me this just a play on words, but a dogs genetics is where the truth lyes in.
     
  6. afb263

    afb263 Big Dog

    Very true, it the genetics not the names we should be looking into. if i read correctly OFRN is just a name, Old family reds were a type ? right?

    And IM thanks for the info, it was good to know and put in my notes. Also cool that you owned a dog and saw some from my pups ped.
     
  7. stickler

    stickler Banned

    The Old Family Reds was an irish tight bred strain, or maybe even breed, of pure red dogs. Bred by families who did not sell and breed to anything outside of 'the family'.
    A black nose within this strain was NO OFR anymore. Because of the CROSS in there.
    And a black dog means a cross has been made for sure.

    The Old Family Red Noses is the attempt by some early dogmen to recreate the Old Family Reds.
    And it must be clear, they bred back only into rednoses, just for the purpose of getting as close to the OFR stuff as possible.
    Must be clear that using black dogs won't help that much in recreating the pure reds.

    The OFRN dogs are not pure Irish Old Family bred.

    The first step in recreating the OFRs is to get the purest of the stuff on hand. They have found 6 dogs, all males.
    Which they were able to confirm to be 'true bred'.
    They couldn't get a 'pure true bred OFR female', so they had to find females that were bred as close to the OFRs as possible, and with a red nose.
    Dogs down from this was later labeled as OFRN dogs. A strain of rednoses, bred down from those dogs and these men.
    If you could still find a pure OFR dog, then he could not be called OFRN. OFR are the main strain, OFRN are a sub strain. Or a later strain.
    Even if another guy is breeding dogs down from the 'original' stuff, but went a different way with them, they can not be called OFRN.
    Perhaps it is the closest thing to the OFRN strain, so they may qualify as a 'cross' to the OFRN. If it's bred toward the OFRN-philosophy, then it can be still called OFRN. Any other type of breeding wouln't be OFRN any longer. And using black nose dogs does not fit within the parameters of a true bred OFRN.

    And btw. does anybody remember the pic that says: Staffordshire Puppies For Sale, Joe Corvino ? It's here on board somewhere.
    All I wanna show is that Joe C. was no breeder of the OFR or the OFRN. His philosophy was way to different to those OFRN breeders.

    And to say their is A LOT of the OFRN strain in Clouse dogs is still wrong. There is SOME in there, not a lot.
    There's more dogs in the background going back to the OFR dogs, just like the OFRN, right, but it's bred a very different way.
    DIFFERENT STRAINS ! Maybe brother-strains or something like that. But a strain is a strain. And a strain called after rednoses should be a strain of red dogs, of course.
    Breeding black noses into a strain of red noses, called old family RED NOSE, can not be labeled as 'true bred OFRN'.
    Well, and your point about genetic does not work very well, because it's about red nose dogs, who can not produce black without an black nose dog being involved.
    It's all about red dogs from the very beginning. Old Family REDS, Old Family RED Nose.
    There can not be a Old Family Red dog with a black nose. Impossible !
    And there also should be NO Old Family Red Nose dogs with black noses.
    Why is this so hard to get ? I don't know, lol.
     
  8. treezpitz

    treezpitz CH Dog Staff Member

    Stickler, quick question.....I'm not arguing either side so don't rant on me please. Does your "philosophy" apply for humans as well? If so, the situation of 2 black folks having a "albino" child came to my mind. Is that a different situation as to what you believe with the OFRN situation?
     
  9. stickler

    stickler Banned

    I thought about albinos for that matter just yesterdy, too. No joke.
    I believe that's a different situation.
    Or maybe I don't understand very well. Is this about two blacks producing blonde ?
    Because white people can also produce albinos, I guess.
    Or do you compare the albinos with red nose dogs in a strain of black dogs ? Like in the theory of 'breeding black dogs for generations (30, 40+yrs.) who are then producing more and more red dogs later after years ? Rednoses in a strain of blacks = albinos ?
    Well, too often my english is just too bad to express myself just right. Sucks !
    But I think it's possible that the pure red old family dogs could be something like the albinos, but still in a different way. Like different mutations. Are albinos mutations ? I'm not sure, because albinos are just missing one genetic part, I believe. Is this a mutation already ? Probably not.

    You are not arguing any side ... too bad, I could need some help, lol.
    But what do you mean with 'my philosophy' ? I'm not even telling what I do like or what not, lol.
    It's just a theory, a good one or a bad one. Could be right or wrong. I just write what I feel has happened with these kind of dogs. Plus a few facts which should make sense, a little bit.
    So, it's all good. I'm just a very sarcastic guy !

    btw. I'm a huge King Yellow fan.
    Missa Chin ! lol
     
  10. treezpitz

    treezpitz CH Dog Staff Member

    Stickler, philosophy just means "theory", it's what you believe. I don't have a opinion on this topic either way as I'm learning from reading what you all have posted. I happened to think about albinos as I was reading this thread so I figured I'd ask.
     
  11. afb263

    afb263 Big Dog

    I know one thing, i bred my red/red brindle bitch a while ago to an all black male- got a all brindle/black litter.
    bred the same bitch to a white/red male - got all red tan pups.
    the next breeding was going back to the black dog, but the same red/white male broke out the kennel and locked up right behind my back(literally) the litter came out 4 red/white 5black brindle i could tell who was who by the fact that the black male had back dew claws and so did the pups that were black brindle. idk wtf this has to do with anything haha.
    just for kicks here is sa pic of the a male from each sire, i suppose.
    https://scontent-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1/23840_381119838015_762929_n.jpg?lvh=1[img]
    this here should help a little with the topic though

    [QUOTE][B]GENETIC PRINCIPALS[/B]
    Each offspring inherits one half of their genetic make-up from their sire and one half from their dam. All members of the genus canis, to which all dog breeds belong have 78 chromosomes. They appear in pairs and consist of chains of DNA material. Small sections of these DNA chains make up genes, the genetic code for the production of certain proteins in the individual dog. The genetic material for particular traits in the dog are located in certain regions on the chromosomes called loci (plural) or locus (singular). The different assortment of genes that are possible are a particular locus are called alleles. In many different breeds, through selective breeding, only one allele is found at a particular loci, leading to all members of the breed having the same trait. This is why purebred dogs will breed true, for those characteristics that distinguish one breed from another. Alleles exhibit a dominance relationship when paired with a different allele. When the alleles are different at the same loci, they are said to be heterozygous. When the alleles are alike at the same loci, they are said to be homozygous. Dependent upon how many different alleles are possible there are multiple combinations of dominance. The term epistatic (above), means more dominant and hypostatic (below) means less dominant. Geneticists use an upper case letter: example (A), to signal a dominant allele, and a lower case letter: example (a) to denote a recessive allele.

    The study of color genetic within a breed can be complex, as there are nine different locations (loci) on the chromosomes that effect the final color that you see in your dog. At each loci are two or more alleles, or gene choices, that interact according to their dominance-recessive relationships. At loci that have more than two alleles, the relative dominance in the series have been listed in order of their dominance.
    Genetic research into the genotypes of coat color has not been done with UKC or ADBA registered APBT. The reason is this: throughout the history of our breed, dogs have not been bred for color. All colors were considered equal. An individual dog was selected as breeding stock based upon a multitude of factors, none of them being color. The canine genetic research into the genotype of color has been done solely in AKC registered breeds. One of the breeds that has been studied is the American Staffordshire Terrier. As a matter of review, it is important to understand that every dog accepted into the AKC registry as an American Staffordshire Terrier was also registered with the UKC or ADBA as an American Pit Bull Terrier. The year was 1936, and the popularity of the Our Gang Comedy and show’s mascot, Petey, prompted the AKC to open their stud book to the breed as long as the breed name could be changed to the American Staffordshire Terrier. No other breed has been crossed into the AKC American Staffordshire Terrier lines, so we are justified in examining the results of this research and applying it to our ADBA registered dogs. The researched results of the color genotypes possible in our breed, at the nine loci responsible for the determination of color are presented below:
    [B]As/Ay/at, B/b, C, D/d, E/Ebr/e, g, m, S/si/sp/sw, t[/B]

    Locus A Series: Dark Pigment Pattern
    This locus has six different alleles possible in the canine population. Only three are present in the APBT breed.
    (As) dominant Black
    (Ay) dominant Yellow
    (at) bicolored pattern (tan ‘Doberman like’ markings on a solid coat)
    The A alleles are pattern factors that control the amount and area distribution of dark and light pigment. They act within the hair follicle to switch pigment synthesis between light and dark. It is important to remember that alleles at this locus interact with Locus E alleles.
    [B](As) - DOMINANT BLACK: [/B]This allele produces uniform coverage of dark pigment over the entire body. Its action is expressed in all dogs with black or brown coats. The (As) allele is almost completely dominant over others in the A series. The black color ranges from pure black to a black with a brownish cast (seal). Geneticists are uncertain if the allele is incapable to produce pure black without additional help from another locus, or if the brown cast indicates a heterozygous allele.
    [B](Ay) - DOMINANT YELLOW:[/B] The (Ay) allele restricts dark pigment, producing yellow colors. When homozygous, the coat can be clear gold, but often has black tipped hairs, especially on the head and down the back.
    [B](at) - BLACK AND TAN PATTERN (BICOLORED): [/B]The typical tan points are above each eye, on each cheek, on the lips and lower jaw, extending under the throat, two spots on the chest, below the tail, and on the feet to the pasterns and hocks, extending up the inner sides of the legs. These tan points can occur on black or seal, blue, chocolate or red solid colored dogs. A great deal of variation can occur with these tan points, even within the depth of the pigment. In some dogs the tan points are not always marked and the color contrast is not always distinct.

    Locus B Series - Black/Brown Pigment
    (B) black pigment
    (b) brown pigment
    This locus contains only two alleles, the dominant (B) producing black skin and nose pigment and the (b) recessive allele, producing brown pigment. In dogs that are red or buckskin, the Locus (B) alleles are expressed in skin color, most visible around the eyes and nose. The black nose indicates the genotype is (BB) or (Bb), both which would be expressed as black nose because of the dominance of the (B) allele. A light brown or red nose is (bb), or homozygous recessive. Being homozygous recessive, both parents must contribute one recessive (b) gene to the offspring to produce the red nose. When breeding two dogs with the (bb) genotype, the only resulting combination in the pups would be ( bb) or red nose.

    Locus C: Pigment depth
    The Locus C series controls the production of pigment throughout the coat. In dogs, the expression of the Locus C alleles is based on observation rather than experimental studies. The American Staffordshire Terrier breed is felt to have only the dominant (C) allele at this locus. The C allele allows the full expression of color, of dark and light pigments. The allele (cch) or Chinchilla Dilution, found in other breeds at this locus, causes the light pigments to be diluted out in various degrees. This would account for the varying shades found in many littermates depending on their homozygous or heterozygous pairing. The chinchilla dilution allele (cch) does not affect the dark pigment, thus allowing for the white dog with black skin pigment and black nose. Other researchers (Robinson) feel that other modifier polygenes are responsible for this phenotype.
    CC full color
    Ccch medium shade
    cchcch pale shade

    Locus D pair: Pigment density
    (D) intense pigment density
    (d) dilute pigment density
    The locus D pair modifies the density of the pigment. The dominant (D) gives full density in both the heterozygous (Dd) or the homozygous (DD) combination. The homozygous recessive (dd) alleles dilute the color. When the dogs basic color is produced by dark pigment, genotype (Bbdd) or (BBdd) yields the color known as blue. The black coat is modified as well as the skin pigment to a gray or blue pigment around the eyes, pads and nose. When the dogs basic color is produced by a light pigment the genotype bbdd (dilute brown pigment) produces a fawn with a silvery cast known in our breed as a fawn/bluies. The skin pigment around the eyes is flesh colored as well as a red or brown colored nose.

    Locus E Series: Extension
    (Em) black mask
    (Ebr) brindle
    [FONT=Times New Roman]
    [/FONT] [LEFT][LEFT](E) extension of dark pigment[/LEFT]
    [/LEFT]

    [FONT=Times New Roman]
    [/FONT] [LEFT][LEFT](f) restriction of dark pigment[/LEFT]
    [/LEFT]
    The Locus E alleles affect the extension of dark pigment, and all of the alleles at this locus interact with those of locus A.
    [B](Em) - BLACK MASK: [/B]This allele is dominant to all others in the series and is expressed as a black mask on dogs that are not solid black. One researcher, Robinson, considers the evidence that the black mask belongs in the E series as unconvincing and assigns it to a different series.
    [B](Ebr) - BRINDLE PATTERN: [/B]The brindle allele produces the brindle pattern with stripes or bars of dark pigment on a background of light pigment. In dogs with the dominant (As) allele, which produces a solid coat of dark pigment (brown or black), the (Ebr) allele is masked because there is no light pigment on which it can act. It is dominant over the extension (E) allele. In our breed, interactions with alleles at the B and D loci produce a rich variety of brindle colors:
    Ay-B-D-Ebr- black brindle
    Ay-B-ddEbr- blue brindle
    Ay-bbD-Ebr- brown or chocolate brindle

    [FONT=Times New Roman]
    [/FONT] Ay-bbddEbr- fawn brindle

    [FONT=Times New Roman]
    [/FONT] (The (-) as the second allele at the locus pair denotes an allele that is uncertain because of the dominant nature of the first allele. It could be homozygous or heterozygous with any of the other alleles.)
    [B](E) - EXTENSION: [/B]The E allele produces normal extension or expression of dark pigment. It interacts with Locus A alleles to produce a variety of effects:
    As-E- black/brown
    Ay-E- red or buckskin with or without black ticked hairs (on head and back) referred to as sable in other breeds
    [B](ee) - RESTRICTION: [/B]The homozygous (ee) alleles restricts the expression of dark pigment, producing the yellow shades by light pigment. It does allow the expression of dark pigment on the nose, lips and eye rims. It is recessive to all other alleles in the E series. Homozygous (ee) alleles interferes with the expression of most Locus A alleles.
    As-ee buckskin
    Ay-ee light tan

    Locus G pair: Progressive Graying
    (g) uniform color throughout life
    Research concludes that the AST breed are homozygous (gg) with dogs retaining their coloring throughout their lifetime. The G dominant allele present in other breeds produces a silvering or graying of the coat over time and the recessive (g) allele, giving a uniform color throughout the dogs lifetime.

    Locus M Pair: Merle Pattern

    [FONT=Times New Roman]
    [/FONT] [LEFT][LEFT](m) uniform pigment[/LEFT]
    [/LEFT]
    Research has shown that our breed has only the recessive (m) allele at this locus. The homozygous recessive (mm) produces a uniform pigment in the breed. The (M) dominant allele produces the merle or dapple pattern. The dominant (M) allele has been identified in Collies, Shetland sheepdogs, Australian Shepherds, Cardigan Welsh Corgis, Great Danes, Louisiana Catalhoula, Spotted Leopard Dogs and Dachshunds.

    Locus T Pair: Ticking

    [FONT=Times New Roman]
    [/FONT] [LEFT][LEFT](t) no ticking[/LEFT]
    [/LEFT]
    Research has shown that our breed has only the recessive allele (t) at this locus which in the homozygous recessive (tt) allows no ticking. The dark ticking that we see in our breed is determined on the Locus A series by the dominant (As) allele, not on the Locus T Pair. In some breeds this is known as a sable. In the APBT, traditionally this coloring is called black or brown ticked. There are modifier polygenes that control the location and extent of the black ticking in the breed. The dominant (T) allele at this locus causes the tiny flecks of pigmented hair in otherwise non pigmented (or white) areas. The T allele is typical in breeds such as the English setter and many of the hound breeds.

    Locus S Series: White Pattern
    The alleles of the Locus S series produce the white markings that are often seen in our breed. Researchers identify four alleles at this locus:
    S solid color
    si Irish spotting
    sp piebald spotting
    sw extreme piebald spotting
    The above sequence reflects the decreasing areas of pigmented hairs. There is some question about the relative dominance of and interaction between the alleles in their heterozygous forms because the expression is complicated by modifier polygenes which affect all of the alleles. Our breed, which research shows carries all four of the alleles, show all ranges of white markings from solid colors to all white.
    [B](S)- SOLID COLOR: [/B]The homozygous (S) alleles produce a solid colored coat. The modifiers will, on occasion, produce a small amount of white markings on the throat, chest, toes, abdomen and belly. [B][I](***KATE, INSERT DIAGRAM 1 HERE***)[/I][/B]
    [B](si) - IRISH SPOTTING PATTERN:[/B] This allele produces a pattern of white on the muzzle, forehead, chest, belly, feet and tail tip. The varying size of the white area is affected by the plus and minus modifiers. Breeds thought to be homozygous for this are the Boston Terrier, Basenjis and Collies. [B][I](***KATE, INSERT DIAGRAM 2 HERE***)[/I][/B]
    [B](sp) - PIEBALD SPOTTING PATTERN: [/B]This allele produces a widely varying areas of white. In the homozygous (spsp) genotype you would see a white dog with dark patches. [B][I](***KATE, INSERT DIAGRAM 3 HERE***)[/I][/B]
    [B](sw) - EXTREME PIEBALD SPOTTING PATTERN:[/B] This allele further decreases the pigmented area and, depending on the plus or minus modifiers, the pattern can range from solid white to white with spots on the ears, around the eyes, and in the tail area. [B][I](***KATE, INSERT DIAGRAM 4 HERE***)[/I][/B]

    [B]GENOTYPE SUMMARY in the American Staffordshire Terrier:[/B]

    Black As-D-E-
    Blue As-ddE-
    Black & Tan atatD-E-
    Red AyD-E-
    Fawn AyddE-
    Brindle Ay-D-Ebr-
    Blue Brindle Ay-B-ddEbr-

    [B]CONCLUSION:[/B]
    [B][I]Question # 1: [/I][/B][B]In times past, the blue color was considered as rare in the breed. How are kennels now producing blue dogs in such great numbers? [/B]
    [B][I]The D Locus pair is the loci that modifies the[/I][/B] [B][I]dark Pigment pattern to blue with the homozygous recessive (dd) alleles. Because kennels are selecting blue individuals[/I][/B] [B][I]which are homozygous recessive (dd) the only allele that a blue parent can give to their offspring is the recessive (b) allele. Breeding two blues together doubles up the recessive trait to (dd) which modifies the dominant (As) allele to blue. If a resulting offspring happens to get the (Ay[/I][/B]) [B][I]allele from one of its parents, then the (dd) will modify this color to a fawn/bluies. If breeders are breeding dogs for the blue color, since the gene is homozygous recessive, 100% of their offspring will be (dd) and depending on the (As) or (Ay) allele on the Locus A series will have blue or fawn/bluies pups.[/I][/B]

    [B]Question # 2: It is possible to produce a puppy with a black nose from two parents, both with red noses?[/B]
    [B][I]The red nose in our breed is produced from the Locus B pair with the homozygous recessive (bb) genotype in combination with the (Ay-) genotype. Mating two dogs with the genotype (bb) the result would be 100% of the pups having red noses (bb). If a pup with a black nose was produced in one of my litters where both parents had red noses, then DNA testing with parentage verification would be necessary to determine the actual sire to the black nose pup. New alleles can be produced through mutation, but proof of parentage would have to be determined using DNA to rule out a duel sired litter.[/I][/B]

    [B]Question # 3: Where does the chocolate color come from?[/B]
    [B][I]The chocolate color comes from the Locus B pair with the homozyous recessive (bb) in combination with the (As) allele. The dilution gene (dd) will also modify this dark chocolate to a light or almost milk chocolate. In most cases, the nose color is also light brown or as we say ‘chocolate/red nose’.[/I][/B]

    [B]Question # 4:How did I produce a brindle from a line that has never had brindle dogs?[/B]
    [B][I]The Locus E Series (Ebr) allele causes the brindle color pattern when this dominant allele is present in combination with the (Ay) allele. The (Ebr) allele is dominant except in dogs with the (As) allele. In the case of the (As), the (Ebr) allele does not have a light pigment to work on, the brindle will remain hidden. In tracing a brindle dogs bloodline, somewhere in the generations you should see a brindle dog since the (Ebr) allele is dominant. Again, if this was my litter, I would ask for parentage verification using DNA to rule out a dual sired litter[/I][/B].

    In conclusion, I would like to advise breeders to look beyond a dog color in determining quality in terms of breeding stock. Selection should be made looking to breed type, temperament, structural soundness and overall health in that order. If the colors of the pups that result from your breeding ‘Just doesn’t make sense’, invest in parentage verification using DNA testing. The cost is cheap, and the peace of mind is great.[/QUOTE]from [URL="http://www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fspid=101"]American Dog Breeders Association[/URL]
     
  12. afb263

    afb263 Big Dog

    oops, heres the pic from above like i said. dogssssss.jpg 23840_381119813015_7032997_n.jpg


    red bitch was the dam R.i.p., and no that was not her setup. she was drying from being bathed.
     
  13. Foundation

    Foundation Big Dog

    clouse is built entirely on old family and old family reds.. if a red nose poped up then thus would be. .. PATRICKS Tater was considered OFRN by Stratton, and other old men. Whos opinion says its not? http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=530

    When Im pretty sure that IM and any other OFRN fan will stand steadfast by anything bred down through corvino. Seems to be some corcoran, some lightners, and some colby all in CLouse CH Staber. passed down a few generations> http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=773

    So yes.. its Old family, and Old family reds; alot of them Old family dogs WERE black or black brindled rather; and if a red nosed dog arises.. THEN.. as in Tater would be OFRN. :)
     
  14. Foundation

    Foundation Big Dog

     
  15. stickler

    stickler Banned

    I'm giving up !
     
  16. Foundation

    Foundation Big Dog

    agreed............. well said
     
  17. afb263

    afb263 Big Dog

    well I'm going to pick up the pup from the ped a IM commented on tomorrow. Btw, she is red. Also 2 pups from that litter available.
     
  18. CrazyHorse

    CrazyHorse Big Dog

    Stickler I would give up to because you have posted so much FALSE INFORMATION it probably would take me a week and copy and paste the CORRECT INFORMATION!

    Hemphill and McCoy DID NOT receive 6 dogs and all were males from the Lightner bloodline/family of the OFRN strain within the APBT breed. History has shown that years later Jim Williams in an advertisement advertised dogs he received from Lightner from the Lightner bloodline/family of the OFRN strain within the APBT breed. Also if you were to check Dean Plemmons an another OFRN breeders ped you will also notice pure Lightner dogs which he received from Lightner without Hemphill, Wallace or McCoy in the pedigrees!

    Notice in the last paragraph I kept emphasizing bloodline/family, strain and breed...this is the CORRECT way to label to differentiate the differences of bloodline/family, strain and breed.

    I see you made mention of Joe Corvino not being a OFRN breeder which is correct...one of the few things you have posted that was correct. Like many other breeders who didn't specialize in breeding OFRN dogs he owned OFRN dogs and dogs that contained enough OFRN blood to be considered OFRN dogs. No different than Fitzwater not being an OFRN breeder but he owned many OFRN dogs such as Goldie and bred many dogs that carried enough OFRN blood to be considered OFRN dogs.

    Now to tackle OF and OFRs to set the record straight. Those dogs were extinct for MANY MANY years before the OFRN dogs got the label. When you want to KNOW CORRECT history grab the ADBA Gazettes from the early 90's and in the back was a two or three issue ongoing debate with I.M., Spartacus and Stratton debating OFRN dogs and see what they all agreed on.

    Feeley, Corcoran, Shipley, Roper ,I.D.Cole, Sanders, Plemmons, Jim Williams, Bruce, Lightner, Wallace, Hemphill, McClintock and Bruce were OFRN BREEDERS! BTW many considered Feeley to have purer OFRN dogs because of the closer link to the Old Family Reds his dogs could be traced to! There were quite a few bloodlines/familys within the OFRN strain within the APBT breed not just the one segment Stratton covered that so many think were the only bloodline/family of OFRN dogs.
     
  19. puppdlr

    puppdlr Pup

    This thread is curious.We had some of Bert's blood years ago,before we got good dogs[% wise].The line was from his dogs that he gave away. He knew their value . Here are a couple of things that serious men shared with me.There were quite a few men that had deep respect for Mr. Clouse,for his strength as an "Action Man"

    Bert was not a Breeder,Skaggs had that talent.
    His later dogs did not match up to the dark nosed dogs he had ear
    lier.
    His later dogs may have needed more mouth.How about the White Bull he used? Check out the motorhead litter. One Breeder stayed with it but threw in Art.One action man moved on. Another bred a few,but also ,moved on.A third[a breeder]had one as a yard dog.Let the better brother run loose and he got in the road and someone took him home.how's that for valuing a dog?He probably never let Deacon run loose,make your own conclusions.
    Many had a nostalgic feeling,and would look again,and reject. Same with Mr Corvino's dogs. He knew when Dugan lost ,that his needed more mouth too. He had used the Henry line before,and may be should have stuck with more in his line,kudo's to Mr Tudor .
    Dan showed up here on day and couldn't take a dog home because the crate had fallen off his trailer and he never noticed.He wasn't that serious,liked the Deacon stuff best,gone now.
     
  20. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    jan -feb 1975 blodlines journal*
    this is the american pit bull terrier p83
    centepede
    old family first, old family reds next, finally ofrn
    old family red nose- old family black nose
     

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