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dexa pre match

Discussion in 'Training & Behavior' started by galician, Sep 20, 2020.

  1. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Dex was a mainstay some years back and it was one of the things that was a must.

    What I found, and this is just personal experience, is that every dog reacted differently. If one were to read the older written keeps that show use 2CC's, then 1CC, the 1/2CC as show time approaches, it never factors in the weight of a dog. 2CC's to a 55lb dog is way different than 2CC's to a 35 pound dog.

    In my experience the dog's weight must be correct with him having his right amount of muscle, right amount of fat and right amount of water. What often happens is that the amount of fat is off and the water weight is correct. Dex will then lower the dog's total weight to the desired number but the dex will lower his water weight, which was correct prior to its use.

    This means the dog is hung on the scale and makes weight but he has a lesser water content and he will soon tie up and blow hot. So many dogs have blown hot and it is always the steroids or the B-12 or the carpet mill or the whatever/whatever, when in fact it is the water content was missed as the dog was dialed the last 30-42 hours.

    If the dog is properly fed and properly watered he will piss and shit himself really close to where he needs to be water wise. The problem I found with DEX is that the final draw can be excessive and I am compensating for the mistake I made in muscle-fat-organ-skin-hyde total weight by making a last minute adjustment to water weight.

    The intended use of DEX as an anti-inflmmatory/cortica-steroid is very effective and its use in the treatment of shock can be lifesaving. Using it just prior can indeed limit some swelling and inflammation but at the same time I have seen dogs I thought we dulled down by the DEX. I read an article once and for the life of me I can't remember where and I have googled a ton times searching but...as a cortica steroid DEX will work, muscles that flex pull in blood and blood is transporting oxygen/ (the article went into 'MAX VO2' and "ATP/ADP", etc. but said when the muscle swelling is limited the blood passages and oxygen transfer is then limited. When DEX works it can limit the efficiency of blood/oxygen transfer. Basically having that muscle "pump" is reduced. Dogs can go in spurts but the spurts are short lived and the time between spurt to spurt gets longer and longer and there is no sustained delivery.

    I'm not that deep into the science but I can see where there could be some truth to that theory but I am certainly not smart enough to attempt to debunk it. I will look for the article again.

    S
     
  2. Cool info Slim.
    cool info further back from Ben and Oldguy to.
     
    oldguy likes this.
  3. galician

    galician Pup

    slim, in your experience you never see dexa letargy the dog? you see use some product to wake up him?
     
  4. galician

    galician Pup

     
  5. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I have seen a few US1's Chloe (1XW/1XL) react to the use of dex in a negative way, damn near to the point it was more of a sedative. She was a nut job of a dog and always on the go, always after something that was moving. After DEX she mellowed right out for a couple of hours, almost to the point we said she looked like she was high.

    So I cut her weight down, and did what little work she would do and as always she was bouncing off the walls. Til the DEX. And she calmed down, damn near mellow.

    She is the dog that made me question its value. I had been using it because I was always told it was the way things were done. I was a good little sheep and followed right along.

    When Chloe needed DEX for anti-inflammatory reason I cut her dosage by more than half and it worked wonders for her in that regard and still dropped water weight.

    From there I eased off of it as a psrt of the final days of prep.


    S
     
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  6. Haha ill give you points for wanting to learn bout this dex stuff..

    Galician.great name man.i like that name.

    And Slim i never had you down for a sheep lol.
     
    galician likes this.
  7. oldguy

    oldguy CH Dog

    Might be best article I read on Dex slim, thanks for posting.. Here is just one of my Dex calamities, all lies of course, but UK boys might appreciate the confession.. During 80's I was totally obsessed by sticking IV lines in dogs, whether they needed them or not.. Whether they'd ran 3 minutes or 3 hours, I was there with fluid bag & catheter ready to spike the poor bastards, Looking back now, I was like the Harold Shipman of dogs.. Most guys in UK scene back then even more clueless than me, so easy for me to build a name for fixing up dogs that usually had fuck all wrong with them in first place.

    Gr Ch. Bruno & CH Hagar comes around and it was a wipe out, Bruno takes seizure around 30 minutes, cant scratch, Hagar the winner and I jump straight in there with my medical bag, got a line in, Springview both grateful & impressed, I shot 2ml/cc Dexamethasone into injection portal on catheter that's inserted in Bruno's leg and Sringview's dog flat lined on the spot.. I probably looked so convincing that he never realised it was me killed his fucking dog, we performed CPR, a ton of luck & Bruno came straight back round again, with nobody present any the wiser over what just happened.. Springview actually thanked me for saving his dog's life, said it was my pleasure and to call me any time he needed my services.. So there it is! The lies behind that famous rumour GR.CH.Bruno died after meeting Hagar in Scotland.. Yes he was gone, but for no more than 20 seconds and it was yours truly (Mr Shipman) who topped him.. Sorry Trevor!

    Just for the record, I learned a lot from that incident and handed CH Bruno back to his owner in perfect health 2 weeks later.. The thread just reminded me if you don't know what you're doing, maybe it's better leaving Dex alone.
     
  8. Man your to fckn funny.


    Unreal.
    fckn legand man.
     
    oldguy likes this.
  9. Hahaha...The Harold shipman of dogs.


    No one like ya mate.
     
    oldguy likes this.
  10. reids skipper

    reids skipper CH Dog

    Oldguy thought you give dex subcutaneous ?
     
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  11. reids skipper

    reids skipper CH Dog

    @oldguy ... sorry you are right mate it is iv ! Ive just looked it up in a mag i have but it says it must be done slowly ... what happened was it too much for his weight or did it go in too quick mate ?
     
    david63 and oldguy like this.
  12. oldguy

    oldguy CH Dog

    I'm hardly going to give any advice now mate haha! Years since I was around it, but my last understanding was that for aftercare, Dex goes into injection portal in I.V. bag & dripped through line, at regulated dosage, what I done was blasted a 2ml bolus straight into injection portal in catheter inserted in Cephalic vein (front leg) by time it reached the heart, it might just as well have been nitro-glycerin, he arrested on spot, but CPR brought him back pretty quick (Trevor gets credit there) If your giving Dex for other reason like anti-inflammatory properties pre hunt etc, then sub Q probably is way to go? Never given Dex I.M. and sure as fuck will never put it direct intravenous again!
     
  13. reids skipper

    reids skipper CH Dog

    Just been looking at a Kentucky hormone keep
     
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  14. oldguy

    oldguy CH Dog

    Learn about half-life before you go near it mate
     
    reids skipper likes this.
  15. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Understanding 1/2 life is of the utmost importance. Then the importance of blood work. Then hydration.

    And understand the line of success is the width of a razor blade.

    Move off that line in either direction and its a lot more simple to knock him in the head and mail the money as it will save you gas and time.

    But best of luck.

    S



     
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  16. Whats half life???
    dont tell me to google it im asking you guys!
     
  17. oldguy

    oldguy CH Dog

    Basically the time a drug stays active in system before it depletes and filtered out through kidneys, so half life of Dex is around 2 days, meaning 1ml dose of Dex given on monday will only be 0.5ml still active on Wednesday (rough guesstimate)
     
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  18. Intresting...i never new it took the kidneys that long to flush the dex out.
    kindneys are most defintly over looked thats for sure..to much stress or strain on them is never a good thing.they already get stress when hunting.

    But i aint even gonna ramble on like i know shit.
    im just gonna watch for the alerts on this one.

    Put my unie specks on and get my note book out.

    Good info.
     
    Sleep likes this.
  19. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    1/2 life is like it was posted up above and it is where over-dosing comes in to play. Medicines have half life and that is why they are prescribed in amounts per dose and the duration of dosage so there is a certain amount in the body over a certain period of time in order attain a certain objective.

    Blood work for said drug is most important because understanding what is there can dictate how much the next dose should be but most do not use blood work on the regular. Most, over whelming majority, and I repeat the overwhelming majority, fuck the dog up with their use.

    Drug XXX has a 10 day half life. On Monday he is given 2CC's (just a number for the math). 5 days later he will have app. 1CC worth remaining in the system. He doses again on Day 5 and he will have 3CC's in the system and the 1CC from the first dose is fading at a faster rate that the second dose of 2CC's. So five days later and five days later. So the math gets really complicated and at the end of the day does not really mean anything, because....

    Every dog's metabolism is different. Even from keep to keep as they age tings change. The steroids were designed for slow moving large bodied animals. Any one ever seen a horse or a bull that is in constant motion like a bulldog? Nope.

    Do they work? Absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt. When the dog lands perfectly square on the cutting edge of that razor blade it is something to behold. I would not say they can't be beat but I will say in order for them to lose they have to quit on top.

    Getting it right, understanding the half life, spending $$$$ in weekly blood work, getting real lucky......it is a lot on the line.

    S
     
  20. oldguy

    oldguy CH Dog

    That's me right there! My Dex calamities bad enough, but my Hormone calamities even worse.. A good friend of mine one of best conditioners in country, nearly every dog he put out was work of art, but some were just like...:-O=D> Those ones he called "cliff edge perfection," slim12 calls it 'cutting edge of razor blade' but it's same thing & as slim said, "a sight to behold!"

    IMO most of us really don't have that level of skill.. I've met a hundred Earl Tudors & Don Mayfields, mystic gurus who talked in science degrees, lectured us dimwits on secret knowledge & enhancement, then along came a dog like Scotsman's Max, rescued from dog pound, fed Wilsons & Chappie and blasted through chemical enhanced opponents like Semtex! I think slim nailed it really, conversations about chemicals, feed, training, bloodlines & crosses pretty interesting & keeps people going, but at end of the day, it's all down to what you got v's what they got!
     

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