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Did successful dogmen ever breed curs?

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by sciri21, Jan 22, 2019.

  1. sciri21

    sciri21 Pup

    I've heard that curs (dogs that haven't tested successfully) can produce well. Is this true?
  2. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Yes. Absolutely.

    There is no correlation between performance and production.

    There is truth to the fact that if you stack traits on top of each other over time those traits can be expected.

    The greatest freak winning of dog all time may have no ability to produce whereas his rank litter mate brother/sister may be the next Register of Merit dog. And vice versa.

    Getting the warm fuzzies from breeding good dogs is as much a part of the process as anything.

    Scroll up to the post by AGK, Geachiman blood. I would get the warm fuzzies from the breedings he posted. That pedigree is chock full of dogs that carried the mail and has continued to carry the mail. I would be willing to bet on the success of the litter but in reality it could be chock full of curs. I doubt it but stranger things have happened.

    We bred two really good dogs who had previously produced with other dogs. Out of 7 dogs all were show quality and the only one who did not go to the show was the one that knocked his teeth out. We repeated the breeding and got curs and one or two that were a hair better than game plugs.

    So after babbling, curs can produce good dogs but I would not choose that route nor would I recommend it.

  3. sciri21

    sciri21 Pup

    Thanks for the insight. Would you recommend breeding to a cur whose parents and siblings were high-quality show dogs?
  4. I'm dying to see the answer to this.......

    If I had experience in that stuff and I had a strong knowledge of genetics and the pedigree was littered in high quality show dogs I might consider it..because there a chance you gonna still get high quality show dogs.....I'm far from experienced..so I would not chance it..what if the cur throws its stamp into the ofspring?..witch is also a strong possibility.....

    If you no what your doing good luck!!!...
    If you dont,then it's a big risk.
    But everything a big risk...so good luck!
  5. Lrs

    Lrs Big Dog

    If you imagine good dogs are a bowl of pudding. Curs are a spoonful of shit if you put shit (curs) into your pudding (breeding program) somebody is gonna get a mouthful of it.
    bks, 80BOWTIE, slim12 and 3 others like this.
  6. Lrs

    Lrs Big Dog

    It can’t be denied that dogs that can’t get it done shouldn’t be used in breeding your fighting uphill trying to use shit.
    Soze the killer likes this.
  7. Forever-So REAL

    Forever-So REAL Quintuple Grand Champion Premium Member

  8. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I would not recommend it, and odds are I would not do it, but like everything there are exceptions.

    GRCH Ali put 8W's on the board and a few of them he went the hard way. When they brought him out recently he hung it up. I like the way he is bred. I have had winning dogs bred down from the same dogs and I am a big fan of that family of dogs. Cur or not, I'd breed to him.

    Two of the older people that helped me the most saw Mountain Man's Bandit stop. One said he quit and the other said he was stopped. Two grown, respectable men would damn near fist fight over their opinions. Either way when he was bred to Bolero he made Two Eyes. Two Eyes crossed to the Panther bitch Loca made Miss Two Eyes and when Miss Two Eyes was bred to Patrick's Kasai that Bolio/Eli cross gave me on of the gamest, most devastating dogs I have seen. I sold him to a camp who had bid $$$ dogs doing big $$$ things. He walked from one end of their lineup to the other with only carnage left in his path.

    So that little bit of shit mixed with the bowl of chocolate pudding is a great analogy, and going in I agree, but it left me with a bowl of whatever I surely enjoyed.

    Fat Bill's Sapelo was a known cur. Absolutely rank. Her owner had quite the ego and he was quite the dog man. Although rank she had great dogs in her family. When bred to other good dogs she produced winners, enough winners to be Register of Merit.

    Personally I do not have the skills, the knowledge or the breeding experience to breed a cur here. But I am thankful tho that someone else did because I ended up standing on top of game winning dogs because of it.

    The rule of thumb is that if a breediing of truly deep game dogs can produce curs then the cur from that litter can in turn throw what he is made of.

    Like I said before breeding good, game dogs gives the warm fuzzies and the warm fuzzies are more important that the genetics and the science involved.

    FrankDublin, Lrs, bks and 4 others like this.
  9. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I agree but not with a 100% absolution.

    Lrs and Soze the killer like this.
  10. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I like the analogy. I always use the components as chicken salad and chicken shit. LOL

    Lrs and Soze the killer like this.
  11. Great read Slim....great way of explaining things.
  12. Forever-So REAL

    Forever-So REAL Quintuple Grand Champion Premium Member

    don't know the truth wasn't there for the breeding but I came across this post thought I'd share
    Cull hard???

    AGK, rswan88, PlugUgly and 1 other person like this.
  13. Fl0w

    Fl0w Pup

    It could be because of what people call in genetic "a recessive trait". The gene has been carry on to the offspring but won't show up on that particular individual. But if that particular individual is then cross to the "right" individual you'll get what you were looking for.

    Don't have the knoweledge to explain more and I have to admit that I didn't dig up more into the subject at this time but I always thought that it could be the reason why cold dogs or curs could have produced top winning dogs...
  14. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Agree in the thought process but I am not so sure gameness is a gene, it is a trait used in the selection process. Because gameness is such a subjective topic it is hard to put in scientific terms. Defining gameness is just about impossible. If ten people are asked there can be as many as ten different answers, and I am sure mine is right and the other nine are not. (just making a point, not that I believe that).

    Again I do not understand the science behind and to make it sound really stupid it is like the parents throw everything in a pot and the offspring ends up with some of the good things and some of the bad things. The object is to choose parents with an over whelming amount of the desired traits and then hope the offspring pull from that side of the pot.

    The kicker is that people seldom have the same results when repeat breeding. Same pot but different traits show up.

    I met a guy once who had bred dogs for 50 plus years. His bulldogs were the foundation of a lot of today's dogs. He was passionate about the bulldogs until he started talking about his coon hounds. When he started talking about breeding dogs he told me, "If someone tells you they can guarantee a successful litter, RUN!, because he is about to hang one in you".

    Breeding is all about selection. The object is to put as many as good things in that pot as possible.

    The flip side to that is that someone who has bred six or 8 generations of his dogs has the experience and knowledge of that particular family to think out of the box with one of his dogs that did not measure up.

    I personally do not have that resume. I can't use curs or cold dogs because I have never bred enough dogs to have that much insight. With that thought process, I can't say others with that insight should not take advantage of their own knowledge.

    Like the above post suggests, without breeding the curs there would not be a lot of dogs to choose from. Unfortunately most of them quit.

  15. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    I believe most will quit on any given night and I believe lots of Bulldogs never met their match.Talent to win is a plus and yes its more that goes in the recipe.imo.
    corvettedex, rswan88, c_note and 2 others like this.
  16. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    I Personally would not practice breeding to cold dogs or curs. I have enough expierence with breeding my own family of dogs to probably justify breeding to one or the other but I still won't do it. As well as the input of the 2 people who bred my dogs families before me. Still wont do it. I consider it a weak link in the chain. Like slim already mentioned, there have been plenty of dogs out there that quit or never started that went on to produce good dogs. However, selection is IMO the biggest part of breeding. Once you stop having a set standard in your selection process, what else will you look the other way on...

    I may feel differently if I had the time, money and space to breed to such dogs but I don't have that luxury. Every spot here is precious therefore, I couldn't justify breeding to curs or cold dogs ever in my own program.. I would choose to breed to that particular dogs sibling that did not posess those qualities while culling the one that did...

    West, a few years ago sent me, as a gift, probably one of the heaviest bred Midnight Cowboy bitches on the planet. 40 years of private breeding went into her creation by Mr. Roberts. I had her for about half a year. He really wanted her bred to Geachison. I did the breeding. Even though she was ice cold and stupid as fuck retarded. However, the more it settled with me the more I decided to just send her back to him pregnant and leave it alone as she was both physically and mentally sub par to my own dogs in every way, therefore In my mind, a very weak link. I told him he can either have her back with the pups since I want nothing off her or even her herself or we were talking a walk into the woods later that week but only I was coming home. He wanted her and I sent her back. Some people have the tine and resources to do those types of breedings. I'm not one of them.

    It comes down to personal preference. It can work and has worked throughout history but I don't have time or space for such endeavours myself.

    One bad link can take you years to remove the bad traits it passed into your own dogs. Too risky for me. Nothing against those who would do it. More power to em...
    corvettedex, bks, DISCOIII and 5 others like this.
  17. YellowJohnJocko

    YellowJohnJocko Big Dog

    At the end of the day gameness is defined differently by just about every individual on the planet with these dogs and so is a cur dog. It is so subjective that the subject of whether the so called cur that produced his/her ass off was actually a cur.

    The spectrum from which anyone can choose his or her's stock is about as far apart as the North and South Pole.

    Whether a dog can be dead game or would have quit the next time is an unsolvable mystery. It has been proven a dog can stand the line (quit) and be dead game the next outing.

    The most important thing anyone who chooses to feed these dogs can do is feed what they like, breed what they like and keep the overstock out of hands of individuals who are not like minded.
  18. kiwidogman

    kiwidogman Big Dog

    Nailed it.
  19. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Agreed with the last two posts.

    If had room or the inclination to have 50+ dogs I could experiment and maybe even prove or disprove a theory or two. I simply do not have the room, the time and nor the inclination.

    The family of dogs I have had kept for a number of years were bred by someone else and I make a breeding here and there. Back in the day when I was running up and down the road I had no time for breeding nor raising/caring for just born puppies. For me it was easier to simply buy a puppy/young dog here and there. I can say that most of the dogs I have ever had were free. We ran in a circle of three or four and when we bred dogs we filled our chain spots and then the click ended up with the rest. I can remember having a yard full yet go two-three-four years between breeding.

    After babbling, that translates to I do not have the input to make a call on a cur or sub-par dog. I could have the good dog and the other five were squat. or vice-versa.

    With that said, if someone else had not bred a cur here and there I would have never stood on top of some of the really good dogs I have had/have seen.

    There are so many definitions of 'game'. Some people are iron clad sure their version is accurate and right. Then others have several levels of gameness. And I think my favorite is 'game enough'.

  20. Yeah,,this gotta be one of the best threads on here for a while...
    80BOWTIE likes this.

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