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Did successful dogmen ever breed curs?

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by sciri21, Jan 22, 2019.

  1. GK1

    GK1 Big Dog

    But no dog is ideal; ideal is subjective. Isn’t any scrupulous long term breeding program a series of dovetails of desired traits while minimizing potential undesired ones?
    If one accepts notion any dog can quit given the circumstances, why not preserve athletic ability, structure, working drive, talent etc? Seems counterintuitive to breed a dumb, talentless or poorly built dog just because it is game (for example) unless the breeding fits a long term plan to increase the likelihood of the trait being expressed in the progeny...along with risk of potential for negatives.
    Soze the killer likes this.
  2. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    The object would be to breed dogs with everything and that is hard enough to have as it is, much less reproduce it.

    I use to grade my dogs on a 1-10 scale. I did enough before the evaluation to say he was relatively game.

    I graded mouth, ability and talent. The 8-9-10 dogs were an automatic and I was betting on the dogs. The 6's and 7's were going too but then I was betting on me.

    I can never remember thinking I would have the gamer of the two dogs so lets ride down the road.

  3. GK1

    GK1 Big Dog

    Every breeding should be done with the intent to improve the breed. The game dog is primarily an American invention, certainly the foundation stock behind the performance dogs of today.
    Yet there is something to learn from European working dog breeders. A dog cannot be bred unless surveyed for conformation, x-rayed, health checked and earned at least one working title. Not a perfect process, but a somewhat objective and transparent one.
    Soze the killer likes this.
  4. Fl0w

    Fl0w Pup

    I wouldn't say gameness is really a gene, it's a trait as you said it but where does this trait come from? I mean... Animals, people, plants, we're all define by our DNA, our DNA makes what we are. Our traits are in my opinion the expression of our DNA. It's something you can't change, you can't add, it's there or it's not right?

    Explaining gameness seems to be a really hard subject but really interesting too. First I would like to state that my view point is purely theorical, i've now spent quite a few time trying to undertand things, dogs, ... and after reading and hearing a lot of diferent opinions I like to think that gameness is more or less the ability of a dog to handle stress. From a physiological point of view, everything happening in a dog's body is an answer to stress. I mean, work your dog on a slatmill and it will cause trauma, the dog's body will give a particular answer to that particular type of stress. Work is trauma and trauma is stress isn't it?

    Every individual have a different tolerance to different type of stress, a different ability to handle it. Gameness is often defined as the willingness to perform a task despite injuries, ... but to have this willingness to perform the dog's body must be able to answer to all those differents stress, once the stress receptors of the dog become saturated, once the pressure applied on those receptors become too hard for that particular dog, then the body is not able to answer anymore and the dog would quit. That's why I think like some others that every dog would quit one day or another if facing the right dog, at the right moment. Any thought on this?

    From there I totally understand that nobody would give a chance to a cur or cold dog, as stated before, it would demand a lot of space and a lot of time...

    Totally agree on this! And that's why cold dogs really intriguate me... How a dog who's down from decades of game bred dogs could turn cold? It's even not like if he would have take all "the bad things" in the pot, it's more like if he would have take things that were not in the pot, and that's not possible. And that's why I've thought about this story of recessive gene/trait. Maybe the genetics is there, maybe the good (and bad) things are there, they're just not showing themself in the way we're used too.

    Any old or fictionnal story about cold dogs? How they acted, ... ? Any name of famous producers which were cold I could dig around?
    Soze the killer and kiwidogman like this.
  5. Great thread.......
    Maybe they all have gameness?.but only in certain levels?.
    Maybe theres many types of gamness.or different levels of it?
    I really did think it was a gene...but how is it?.genes may dictate or be the reason certain traits appear.so having the right genes is crucial..but finding the right traits within them genes is even more important....woooosh!#:-Snot easy to get your head around.
    Thank God I don't breed dogs!.lol.
    I think the people down the years who have bread with success,ones what have stopped or cold.have really new what they were doing and must of had a incredible knowledge of genes and traits and the particular family of dogs they were working with....
    @ GK1..I don't think they are American creation(not arguing mate,just discussing!).I think the sport of piting 2 dogs for sport was developed in England..I think the first trait men looked for was gameness..and I think they captured it to some degree...but I think the Americans mastered it.I think they perfected it..I think they captured(to some degree)the ability,power,mouth..stuff like that.and made it the finest animal there is......
    I think they already had gameness before they were a pit dog.and breeders utilized that gameness plus other factors,to breed it for fighting....
    Great thread ...im gonna shut up now....
    Hope this thread keeps going,,can't wait to read more.
    rswan88 and YellowJohnJocko like this.
  6. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    I have only personally seen 2 truely cold dogs. Both struck me as retards. Neither was from my dogs. Both of those dogs everyday behaviors screamed retard to me.

    I have always felt it was a form of retardation. Only way I can justify a dog taking it's death with a wagging tail and not defending itself at all.
  7. Fl0w

    Fl0w Pup

    Thanks for your answer AGK.

    Let's try to look at this in an other way. Every living creatures as a natural instinct of self preservation, they want to survive.
    Now when we take a look at the procces of selecting a game dog we can see that people are trying to erase this self preservation instinct . Through test/match,... people are selecting dogs who are able to handle high level of pain, high level of fear, high level of stress, .... And that's absolutely not natural, every species on earth want to survive and will try to avoid death, pain, ... by any means.

    I always remembered a sentence i read some years ago, don't remember who told that and where i read it, maybe you will :

    "Don't be surprise if you dog quit, be surprise if he doesn't!"

    A "normal" dog would do everything to avoid this kind of situation, the one who wouldn't are exeption because that's totally unnatural.

    When I think about what you say, the dog who wag is tail while he is facing death and who doesn't even try to fight back can be a retardated dog, I follow you here. But couldn't that behavior be an totally extreme manifestation of gameness? A dog who don't even feel the need to fight back to survive because he's body is able to handle all that pressure/stress with so much ease that he doesn't feel the need to do anything to avoid it/stop it?
    FrankDublin, Soze the killer and AGK like this.
  8. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    It could very well be an extreme form of gameness.

    I use the word retarded more so in the dogs everyday behavior and mannerisms. Like a dog that simply is dumber than a box of rocks, beyond just being a dumb dog. Barks just to hear themselves bark, just does undesired things regardless of the consequences. The one cold dog I had would bark through my bark collars. Bark, yipe, back to barking. I've used these collars on the hardest headed of dogs and always got them to quit barking excessively. This bitch just didn't get the connection. She did a lot of other stupid shit too. She frustrated me to the point I sent the gift back. Lmao.
    Fl0w, Soze the killer and rswan88 like this.
  9. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I try to keep the definition simple. I personally define gameness as the willingness to continue.

    I can see where there can be degrees or perceptions. I try not to add up or quantify the amount placed upon one, that is relative, I just simply say he continued so he is game. One will quit under X amount and the next will quit under XX amount and then one will continue under XXX amount. There is no real explanation other than selection.

    Like AGK said about the retarded female. He could have made the breeding and two years later he finds out he actually downgraded his program. That two years is lost. Then he has to do the breeding he felt comfortable with and that takes two years. In order to see if his breedings are perpetuating the traits he desires then those dogs will be bred. Another two years.

    Now he has 6 years tied up, all that food, all that time, all that medicine and all that shit to rake.

    I just recently let a cold dog go. This dog was 5/8th Red Boy from an entire family of early starters and hard chargers. This dog showed zero interest, simply would not defend himself. He had game dogs and winners all throughout his pedigree. We had another dog bred down from the same dogs just flipped the top to the bottom. This dog did turn on to well after 3, nearly 4 and then won 4 after that, twice going more than two hours. So we waited and waited. Simply cold.

    Maybe the easiest way to go about the dogs is to grade each dog as an individual. Forget about what the family has done and do not give them a pass because moms and pops were real bulldogs or GRCH XXXX was found a couple of times in the 4th/5th generation.

    I am not so sure where the science stops and the enviroment starts. If it were all science and the dog was genetically pre-dispositioned for gameness then when a dumbass drops the bomb on a 12 month old puppy, the puppy should then be willing to continue. Schooling can play a vital role in preparing the dog for the mental anquish of combat. Then since most quit from fatigue and frustration bringing them out in great condition can in turn hide the cur.

    With all that I was always told the same, do not be surprised when they quit, be surprised when the do not.

  10. Lrs

    Lrs Big Dog

    I’m of the opinion that all families of dogs have a few question marks on there pedigrees. I don’t think the perfect dog exists but you can only truly swear to what you’ve seen so I don’t personally want to take the risks if I don’t have too. Like agk said chain space is a privilege and always in short supply.
  11. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    This is oh so true.

    People with 40+ dogs and room/time for more can make different decisions than the guy with only room for 6-8-10. Not necessarily better decisions, just he has a few more options and maybe better said, he can take a few more chances.

    As much as it is double speak/two faced, I have seen cur dogs I would breed to and at the same dogs I have seen winning dogs that I would not choose to do so. GRCH Ali won 8. He was simply taken to the well one too many times. I have had dogs bred down from the same dogs. I'm a fan of the family. If he was 2-1 or 3-1 I might not have the same thoughts. But at 8-1 I'd give it a whirl. For me, he is the example that they will all quit give the opportunity. If they stop at 8 he is a candidate for DOY and at 8-0 he is one of the all-time great match dogs. That last trip out tarnished his name for a lot of people.

    The reason is I grew up in the dogs and the dogs were all about winning. There was never a mention 'bettering the breed' or 'preserving gameness' or 'keeping a family tight'. I never heard those words until I found the internet. It was always about winning. Winning most of the time depends on talent, ability and mouth, sometimes just mouth. That is also where I learned 'game enough'.

  12. Forever-So REAL

    Forever-So REAL Quintuple Grand Champion Premium Member

    40+ made me think of this vid I have love for them probably own more than 40+ over the years but not at one time lol...
  13. Lrs

    Lrs Big Dog

    Lol we’d all love to have a hundred chainspots and no worries in the world but it’s just not practical for 99 percent of people.
    AGK and Soze the killer like this.
  14. I don't wanna get of topic,coz this thread is great......but that yard is major!.proper awesome,,,I bet a yard that big takes real hard work and dedication....just watering and feeding them must take hours and hours.....and lol.that's a lot of shit what would need scooping...hats of.they must be really dedicated.
    that would be a great life to live,,but I still don't think ide want that many.no were near that many!.lol.
  15. Forever-So REAL

    Forever-So REAL Quintuple Grand Champion Premium Member

    I have another vid yard bigger than that one!
    not off topic but they have a enough room to breed two cold dogs and see what the results are lol... I wouldn't just saying
    Soze the killer, slim12 and bamaman like this.
  16. Lrs

    Lrs Big Dog

    Lol if you have that space and time.....well I might just try it what’s an extra 5 on top of one hundred you already have lmao. That yard is already the size of a small British village so that might be a problem this side of the pond.
    slim12 likes this.
  17. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    That is huge. I have seen one that bog or that many dogs.

    The most I have ever seen on one yard was in SC. I did not count the dogs but he dumped two 50 pound bags of dog food in a John Deere gator. We started riding stopping along the way to feed 6-8-10 at a time and then move the gator. He was most definitely not over feeding and he scraped the last few pieces of feed to feed the beagle that was running loose on the yard.

    He fed 100lbs of food per day.

    I had never seen such. I would hate to think I had to feed that many dogs everyday, then water, and then rake shit on top of that.

    AGK likes this.
  18. Forever-So REAL

    Forever-So REAL Quintuple Grand Champion Premium Member

    @OP we use to have emoji symbols like (THREAD JACK ) sign=)) =))
    @slim remember? AGK said BDB yard :-?

    pay attention @48 sec a far as the eyes can see

    Soze the killer and AGK like this.
  19. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    That's a dream yard right there.
    Be awfully hard to pull that of in the usa anymore.
    Soze the killer likes this.
  20. Ha,ha,right back in topic with the cold dogs!....
    I no...I wouldn't breed a cold dog no matter what..I'm just not in any sort of position to.time,space the lot.....but a yard that big could lol..and as Lrs said.it wouldn't make difference a few extra lol..

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