Fatal Flaws in Working Dogs

Heres a pic of what I consider to be an ideal physical specimen for an APBT. Broad and strong chests are good, but to big of a chest could be to big of a target. I kind of like a longer dog too, but thats more of a preference than a flaw IMO.


Gr Ch Pedro

 

I'm, not sure of your point, but Mayday performed and produced pretty well and his desire cannot really be questioned since he was a legit Gr Ch. Tornado's desire and performance really cant be questioned either, only legit double Gr Ch in history, but she was not bred many times at all. The only thing questionable about Queen of Hearts may have been her ability to produce.
Is ability to produce part of this thread?

 

That pic of Pedro always stands out in my mind when I think bulldog.

 

My original topic starter question was centered around breeding out flaws.

NGK

 

You said it. Working dogs ,to be complete ,need to be able to reproduce. Or you can do what most breeders do,attempt to produce the final product ,a terminal cross.Or what you might think of as a 'niche'.
Breeders ,being blind in many respects,resort to exaggerating what they CAN see,which are the physical attributes. And rely on distant ancestors,not all of whom have been really checked.
Some of you might consider not breeding any more dogs,given your lack of knowledge.Of either the dogs you have ,the ones they came from,or"What to look for".

 

I like him Ice .... I guess this is what I would prefer he appears to be really solid and very strong all around... I wish I could see more of him ...

 

Thank you Ben, although, there is no dog that perfectly conforms to the adba standard without faults (they all have em). I actually do agree with you on the front ends of dogs being a current major problem seen in today’s show stock. Actually this issue has been brought up by the adba during judges meeting recently so you are generally right on target. I do know of the banjo dog you speak of and heck yeah even one of my favorites like Cuda have tremendous front ends. One of the worst structure faults (as was said heart and mind being the number one most important thing, as it makes up for a lot of defects) for me would be a dog with truly slipped hocks, such as that bend all the way in. I can find pics of what that looks like if ppl aren’t sure what they look like or why it’s bad.

 

I would have to agree with the hock fault, its almost as if the joint is hyper extended or double jointed. I have seen it so bad in some dogs where you could actually hear the joint pop as the leg straightened. That being said I know of a dog that was a performance animal who had this fault and was still able to win because of his other traits being great, mouth, endurance, etc...

Would you breed to a dog with a major fault (like the dislocating hock) if he/she were to become a Ch or GrCh working dog, or would you look at a well built sibling (or other family member) to try and carry through the physical traits you desire without the flaw, while still maintaining the set breeding program?

NGK

 

This dog in the ped I noticed right away in the show world how he/she would have a tough time but it's funny because a lot of the red boy dogs seem to have this fault running through the family my Bogart has it too as he is pretty heavy on the red boy dogs ... mayday, macho buck, red boy, and quite a few other dogs that are heavy on the red boy family have this fault ... notice where the elbows sort of point outward instead of inward against the chest I think they call it tied elbows where the elbows are a bit loose and instead of laying flat against the body they point slightly out I know it's an ADBA fault but I notice a lot of the heavy red boy dogs seem to have it ... Bogarts mom had it too lol ... Don't know if it would impact a dog performance wise but it's something that is very noticeable in many of the red boy dogs.

Here is an example description according to APBT conformation network

And this is just a few well known dogs I know there are plenty of them that have this fault ....







And according to this: Show Standard

2. The humerus is angled at an opposite 45 degree angle and is long enough that the elbow comes to the bottom of the ribcage, elbows lying flat against the body.


Faults: barrel chest, narrow chest, fine bones, out at elbows, down in pasterns, splay feet, thin pads, back dew claws.

Faults: Upright or loaded shoulders; elbows turned outward or tied-in; down at the pasterns; front legs bowed; wrists knuckled over; toeing in or out.

 

That's good to know benthere that it would actually be and advantage in performance sports! I have always wondered about it like I said bogart has it so did his mom and looking at his ped it's no surprise where it comes from lol. I don't think little things like that should prevent a dog from being bred if we culled dogs for those types of things we wouldn't have all those great dogs above and their offspring. But it's night and day when a dog like that steps into a conformation ring kind of sad because I happen to think those dogs are beautiful and little quirky flaws gives a dog some character.

 

Interesting to hear someone on this board say this. I wish more people would be more open minded like you !

 

I had a talk with a good friend about the outward elbows shown on the pics above. He told me it indeed would be an advantage in performance sports. Same way as the upright angels of hind legs stop a dog from comfortably standing on them in activities, walking into what he's driving or walking backwards, placing his feet under him with less effort, same for the front legs if their flexible and and not straight up and down. The dog will be able to get his feet under him better because of it, and more agility moving to the side etc.

 

late to the party, but the name of the game is GAME. this post shoulda ended the thread.

 

""My original topic starter question was centered around breeding out flaws
NGK"

Done by selecting Stud and Female. A lot of folks breed what they have and don't seek the BEST.Get rid of yours and start anew.Maybe you know more now.If not Get a Pro to do it for you.Money well spent.Don't try to "breed up",it can't be done.




I'm, not sure of your point,
Is ability to produce part of this thread?"


http://http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/horse_racing/rag_time_rhythm_NzyxguZmGEZQWFHwRlFX5J

Another ,though imbedded deeper,is the pony story,which might illustrate the :1 Fatal flaw in ponies is apparent yet lived with.Fine bone is something they can win with or in spite of.And ,as long as they have meds,they can live with the breathing problems.
2 Breeding is an art ,not a science,tho that is soon to change.Ponies used to be a defense industry,Now its short races and a beauty contest.Still,I'm pulling for Rags.
3 Dogs Fowl,Ponies,were bred by the same guys,using the same techniques. Best to Best,raise the ones you fancy from their get.The rules of the game you fancy are going to determine the winners and the art is in getting your hands on them.

 

Easy to agree with Lee D. I'm sure your post could be the end right than. Still i believe there is a good place for conformation shows in this breed.
Nevertheless, the more i think about it the more it seems ridiculous to me. Although i too and i'm sure many others also like to see a well put together specimen. It would be even more interesting ( another thread i saw somewhere ) if the for example, highest placed conformation dog also proved his worth in working ability. This often makes me think it's function before form, so what would happen if we would take the recent proven dogs and try to make a new standard to be able to say this is what the working conformation should look like ? I believe the working range for breeders would be so diverse we would end up with the same diversity you see in many dogs today.

 

I dont think that it ends with Stud and Bitch selection, after a few generations of breeding said Stud and Bitch traits that did not show in these 2 dogs will begin to show that were prevailant in their foundation stock. It is at this point that your real brood selection begins, now im going on 23 years of breeding the same family of dogs as my referance to breeding, not a couple of breedings.

I think that ability to produce is a good trait to have in a dog and should always be part of the standard used for maintaining a working yard, unless you go back to the just buy 2 dogs theory you had above and put your trust in someone elses ability to produce good dogs...

NGK

 

I agree with what Ben said as well but the future of your yard and the quality of your dogs would be better in the long run if the dogs physical structure was as good as their heart and mind.

NGK

 

Heres some with a good front end IMO
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [352036] :: HARD TIMES
Hard times dont have the deepeste chest though judging from the pic, but solid front with nice thick legs

And this one
APBT ONLINE PEDIGREES