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hard mouth

Discussion in 'APBT Bloodlines' started by GK1, Aug 27, 2016.

  1. GK1

    GK1 Big Dog

    Several references within recent threads noting the destructive potential of certain dogs’ bites. What factors in to the capacity to crunch and grip?
    • genetics, certain bloodlines
    • head / neck structure
    • training / conditioning
    • psychology of the individual dog
    • all the above
    Is the bite force of the so-called freakish dogs relative to a dog of similar size, or is the bite force of such dogs comparable to larger dogs bred for bite work such as ABs, Rotts, Dobes, GS, Mals etc?
     
  2. treezpitz

    treezpitz CH Dog Staff Member

    If you don't get any responses you may want to search through the site using the search feature. This topic has been discussed many times.
     
  3. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    I will bite......(LOL)
    It is pretty much relative because all the things you listed factor in at some point.

    Sometimes the damage left behind is used as an indicator of mouth.

    Physical size often plays a part as well. On a bite sleeve the target is up higher than the dog. He elevates to take hold. The heavier dog's weight pulling down can add to the 'mouth' of a sleeve dog. The factor in full mouth grip or just using the front canines.

    Genetics play a certain role but it is not a given because lots of times it is night and day difference between littermates. Even when the littermates were similar in size and raised by the same person.

    It is mostly a relative term because bite location plays a huge role as well.

    I put a sleeve on once and took hits from various dogs. The Malinois bit hard and was really intense at maybe 80lbs. The Fila Brasileiro bit hard as well but most of the power was felt when his body weight pulled me down to his level (maybe 140-150 on the male and maybe 120 on the female). The pit bull was in the 40's or so. His bite pressure felt much harder than the other dogs. I could feel the pressure thru the sleeve. His shakes were violent and more powerful than any of the rest. The next was a 90-100lb AB. He went air born and hit the sleeve with the force of his body weight. I landed on my back with a dog's drool all in my face. Pretty awesome.

    On the sleeve, with no scientific means of measuring, the pit bull bit down harder but part of that was the violent shaking. Back to the top. If two dogs bite down with 100psi equally and one shakes violently and the other does not, the violent shaker will have 'more mouth'.

    If the dog can grip and re-grip really fast in between violent shakes, what he leave behind is used as an indicator of 'freak mouth'.

    S
     
  4. niko

    niko CH Dog

    Really good post Slim...great way to explain it
     
  5. Thunder98

    Thunder98 Big Dog

    Man....you got a way with word...really good post again...
     
    ELIAS'PISTOLA and niko like this.
  6. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    I asked a known dogman how he might add mouth in a keep,,,
    he said you cant...

    I dont believe that...

    all muscles can be built up and or destroyed,,,
    if they want to use that muscle in the right places is another thing...

    freaks are genetically designed many generations back but there are impossible to breed consistent...

    I dont know of freaks from any other breeds...
     
    niko likes this.
  7. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    I am with the theory a dog bites hard cause he wants to.I have had dogs and I know dam well could bite thru a wall they wanted but for what ever reason some would never show it when it counted .But u know its there.
     
  8. GK1

    GK1 Big Dog

    Yes many variables, relativity.

    I wear the sleeve with both my dogs. I also hold the XL black Kong ball while either dog bites down. I think the 68lb German Shepherd bites harder than the 45lb pit bull. She has more height and mass behind her so her shakes are heavier However, the pit is more tenacious, digs in and hangs whereas the GS would rather release and chase another moving object to hit. Pit appears to crush raw bones in the back of her mouth quicker and she is also is the more competitive tugger. The GS more competitive at chasing before biting the moving object with great accuracy. Genetics of fighting breed / shepherd breed I suppose. Not sure if the results would be different with the dogs in a state of rage.
     
  9. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    I asked an old timer about his favorite dog and he told me that his dog could kill if she wanted to but she just likes fighting too much,,,
    now if she feels the dogs a threat it triggered her kill mode...

    he had the same theory that they have to want to,,,
    I agree but feel there is other variables leading up to that,,,
    in order genetics first rarly do super freaks come out soft mouth gene pools,,,
    health and abilty to be able to bite before want,,,
    and yes conditioning would add a lil something...

    then there are those that can but in all the wrong places and times,,,
    so brains are a huge plus also...
     
    niko likes this.
  10. Box Bulldog

    Box Bulldog Premium Member Premium Member

    Bite force has all to do with genetics and shear determination. I can always spot a real hard mouth dog usually by head a jaw shape but they still need will and determination to use there hard mouth effectively.
     
    pitbulld0gs likes this.
  11. italianpit

    italianpit Big Dog

    Some time ago i'd an Eli dog and she was not able to break a tennis ball but she Can crush a beef hip in Short time. So yes, i Think a dog bite hard if he wont..then of course genetics plays a crucial role like in umans, 5 different people with The same weight are not with The same power...i know Small People with knock out power and Big People with pillow fists...
     
  12. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    If performance is involved there are freaks there too, just not along the same lines as what bulldogs refer too.

    My buddy is into the fox hounds. He has an older sway back, tri-color Black and Tan/Walker mix. Nothing to look at and if one showed up to buy one or breed to one, he will always get passed over.

    The flip side is on a deer he is the fastest dog I ever seen. His look, his height, his front, nothing says speed. Drop the tailgate and he crosses first every time. In his line of work he is a freak. He is five and still skinning young dogs. On top of that he is throwing himself even in the scatterbred world of foxhounds/deer dogs. So in that line of work, he is a freak.

    We went to one of those hog dog rodeo things in SC once. A boar jumped the fence and got out. Faced the crowd, looking straight at me, I almost shit, and luckily he turned and went the other way. They turned out a pure Colby male, maybe 60lbs. He was on lead from his chain spot to the side of the fence. Turned off lead and he tracked that boar down, bayed him and then caught him. One of the best looking bulldogs I have ever seen. Could run amongst snapping and excited dogs and go right by them to a boar. He was a freak too.

    It is hard to add mouth in a keep. Most keeps take it away, the successful ones do not take it away.

    The actual act of biting down is usually lowered because water weight and body weight is down at show time. The trick is to pull them down correctly. In turn the dog that can bite the longest, and shake more violently, with his bursts being longer and more often, is often accredited with having more mouth. In reality the bite was the same, the keep allowed him to do it longer and more often.

    S






     
  13. A bear is big and has a heavy bite but a ant is small and also packs just as much potency due to how it is delivered. He is much smaller tHan the bear there for the bears power is nothing. Or his size. I have seen cotton mouth big dogs and some hard mouth small dogs and vice versa. But if both have hard mouths then it's all on the size and how they throw there weight around.
     
  14. Thunder98

    Thunder98 Big Dog

    I believe its genetics, while everything else being equal, some are just known to bite hard and these normally pass it down....up to you to find the next one down from them. Frisco dogs for instance are known for mouth...I've been told anyway. I'm sure there other traits but mouth being one. Why do they line breed on him if they are not looking for this...shyness, idk. ...I'm just using him as an example. I'm sure there are plenty of lines with mouth.
    And more importantly, they gotta wanna use the mouth.....
     
    deadrabbitsoc. and pitbulld0gs like this.
  15. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Genetics I am sure plays a role, a contributing role, as no one thing has been or ever will be identified. There is no realy way to measure bite force. Even if there were a scientific way to deliver a psi resut who could ever say the dog was biting as hard as he could.

    Then factor in he may very well be biting for his life, hard to factor it all with any certainty.

    Patrick's Kasai, even though mouth is not the first word to come to mind with Bolio dogs, threw mouth to any and everything he was bred to, regardless if the mother had mouth or not. In 30-35 dogs there was one that had average mouth. Every other one could flat shut it down. In that sense I would go with some genetics as he stamped his puppies in size, shape ability and mouth. The only role the dam appeared to played was in color. Seldom did he throw one his color.

    At the same time we had a Molly Bee bred bitch that was cold as ice, but thru freak mouthed dogs. The percentages of game dogs was low but the damage left prior to quitting was extreme.

    Funny thing was the only dog off Kasai that had less the extremely hard mouth was one off him and the Molly Bee bitch. Maybe two positives made a negative, although the negative was far from being called cotton mouth.

    Great topic.

    S
     
  16. italianpit

    italianpit Big Dog

    Agaist a big 10 minutes cur hard mouth destroyer I Pick a little game Cotton mouth with little ability all My Life..also with no theet lol
     
  17. BOTP Kennels

    BOTP Kennels Big Dog

    Hard mouth dogs comes in all different shapes and sizes and vloodlines..it's the individual dog itself...another thing when people are working a dog they can dry and dog out so much that it can loose mouth..so a few things come into factor when it comes to how a dog is biting..but for the most part some dogs have it and some dont
     
    Thunder98 likes this.
  18. BOTP Kennels

    BOTP Kennels Big Dog

    Keep a dog a 1 1/2 to 2 drop would be ideal...at 3 your dog will definitely loose some crunch...
     
    GuitarSlim likes this.
  19. niko

    niko CH Dog

    We should be judging them by EFFECTIVE bite...not a HARD bite
     
  20. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Actually I think you are right. And I think that is where the confusion and myths appears.

    There is no way to tell which ones are sinking them the furthest. It is what they do after sinking them that matters.

    GRCH Rufus was a pressure biter. He did very little surface damage. Wherever he put his mouth would swell like a balloon.
    In the beginning he was not considered a hard mouth dog until they started dropping under him. Even trhu violent shakes and re grips seldom did he leave surface damage to 'indicate mouth'.

    An example. With your right arm grab your left wrist. Squeeze as hard as you can and while squeezing attempt to move your right hand up and down your left arm. The harder your squeeze, the better your grip, the least amount of travel. Basically only the skin on your left arm will move.

    The slightly lessen your grip. Repeat. Your hand will slide some up and down your left arm.

    Completely release the pressure and your right hand will slide up and down the arm freely.

    Example 1 is a freak mouth dog. Imagine if there were nails in your hand sunk in. They would be deep, and with the tight grip the holes would remain close to the same size of the nail. The damage would be deep.

    Example 2 the damage would be just about as deep, but the holes at the surface would be bigger. And to the eye more damage had been done.

    The third example would be appear to be a horrific murder scene, the lacerations would be all over the arm, not all that deep but all over the arm. It would appear to be a lot of damage when in turn mostly skin wounds.

    Lots of dogs accredited with hard mouth are really in group 3. it is the lack of mouth that appears to be a lot of mouth. (on the surface)

    Mouth should be determined by the total effect not just the outwardly appearance.

    I agree with your post.

    S
     
    springy, c-murda, Brutepit and 5 others like this.

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