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Honey badger

Discussion in 'Patterdale Terriers' started by dogman2007, Nov 23, 2010.

  1. NGK

    NGK Top Dog

    Although they are often believed to be members of the dog family, hyenas closest living relatives are meerkats and mongooses

    NGK
     
    david63 likes this.
  2. Mr.Revolution

    Mr.Revolution CH Dog

    NGK is correct hyenas basically a big wolverine/badger/weasel(their closest genetic relative)hence the jaw power.Any hyena,lion,leopard/jaguar,tiger that wanted to kill would have no prob.Key word is want.Sure you could get a scared wild animal and it would more than likely cur snap and try and escape.But that same animal wanted to kill the dog it would not be a prob.A dog would have a hard time with a willing wolf or Mt lion.
     
  3. Mr.Revolution

    Mr.Revolution CH Dog

    But what i would love to see is a willing african wild dog/painted wolf.I thinks thats the apbt's closet match up as far as wild animals go.
     
  4. A 70lb Wolverine would be world record size....The vast majority would be in the 20lb-50lb range.

    Both the Wolverine and Honey Badger and other Badgers have an overinflated reputation...Don't get me wrong they are extremely tough (more so than most wild animals) and great at bluffing off larger animals but they aren't game at all. They are both overrated compared to what people think of them.

    Their is no such thing as a "game wild animal" (and for good reason) because gameness would be one of the dumbest traits for a wild animal to have...Wild animals can't go to a hospital or get medical care if they get injured in an unnecessary fight...and they run the risk of starving to death...Some wild animals can be quite aggressive/combative but none are truly "game" (and like I said for good reason) Gameness is a stupid man made trait that would be terrible for a wild animal.

    The only "game animals" are certain dogs and those fighting bulls from Spain/Portugal.



    Their is no such thing as a "cowardly" wild animal....Wild animals don't have the luxury of going to the grocery store and buying food and they don't have the luxury of checking themselves into a hospital every-time they are injured so they can heal up like you can. Wild animals need to be smart and avoid unnecessary fights because injuries from fights can mean they are unable to obtain food and they will starve to death....It has nothing to do with "cowardice" and you would be the exact same way if you knew an injury could possible prevent you from obtaining food.

    Some wild animals are pretty aggressive/combative through and are more likely to fight than others...And all will fight to the death if they are forced into a corner and have no where to go....But they are not like an Apbt or Spanish bull because those "game" traits would be horrible from a survival/evolutionary standpoint.

    Generally social animals tend to be more fighting oriented than solitary animals...
     
    david63 likes this.
  5. Many Wild animals also associate Dogs directly with Humans and the ones that have been hunted excessively are extremely wary of humans. Alot of times they aren't running from the dogs but from humans that they associate the dogs with (from past experience, smell etc)

    Grizzly Bears for example have an excellent sense of smell...And can certainly smell the human scent on the dogs...Grizzly Bears in many regions are extremely wary of humans and so when they encounter dogs they equate that to mean humans aswell and they run...Has nothing to do with them being afraid of the actual dogs.
     
    david63 likes this.
  6. Mr.Revolution

    Mr.Revolution CH Dog

    the fear i speak is of being in an unatural situation.Like a fighting pit.I never said and didnt mean afraid of a dog.and Notice how i said a willing wild animal
     
  7. capo

    capo Big Dog

    well that's what's up I didn't research/Google that, that's what I thought-heard-saw on tv,etc but if there related to meerkats,mongooses then I learned something new today.
     
    david63 likes this.
  8. capo

    capo Big Dog

    A lone hyena will not fight a animal they will retreat(cowardly) you need to do some homework.
     
  9. capo

    capo Big Dog

    .... Q: They're related to dogs, right?
    A: Wrong. Hyenas are a family of their own, the Hyaenidae. They're more closely related to cats than dogs, but their closest relatives are the Herpestidae -- mongooses, meerkats and such.
    (So I wasn't wrong)........tigerdude Google cowardly hyenasand then tell me what's up!
     
  10. NGK

    NGK Top Dog

    There are 3 animals on earth that have a natural gameness, one is the APBT, the second is the Rooster, and the third is the Dove (yes the symbol of peace will fight to the death in the wild)

    Let's start with the APBT, any trait that is found in any animal on earth had to be there to begin with for it to be present now. Man has surely increased the amount of game animals with selective breeding but man in no way "Created Gameness" in them.

    Rooster's, since the domestication of chickens for food man has seen the trait of gameness in a high number of the male versions of these feed birds especially when protecting their own piece of turf, they will fight until one or both are dead with no thought of self preservation.

    Dove's (pidgeon's aka painted dove's) Two male dove's/pidgeon's will fight in flight to the death to determine the best and most dominant breeding male with no thought of self preservation.

    As for Spanish Bull's, if you leave the gate open they will run away to preserve themselves so I think they fight for self preservation which is the exact opposite of the meaning of gameness.

    NGK
     
    david63 likes this.
  11. babedulce

    babedulce Big Dog

    This gets interesting now, because isn't it common knowledge that any and every form of dog derives from the grey wolf? So are you saying that the grey wolf is the possesor of this gameness gene, only it doesnt express itself in wolves but it does in APBTs?
     
  12. NGK

    NGK Top Dog

    I'm saying that Man can't add anything to an animal on earth but can draw out those deeply hidden recessive traits through selective breeding. I know that some people think that man created gameness and some how magically cast it into the APBT through breeding but I disagree, the trait had to already be seeded deeply into the species for it to show itself. The Grey Wolf thrives in a pack environment, they make kills in groups and are extremely smart when doing so to avoid injury. The most large and durable of the pack saves his energy for the kill slowly stalking behind while the younger faster wolves take turns darting in and out at the prey confusing and tireing the animal to the point of exaustion. By the time the leader of the pack takes his turn at the prey there is little to no fight left therefore little to no danger of injury, the prey all but concedes itself to the pack.

    I grew up in the wild of the Yukon and from 1st hand experience can tell you that a wolf is nothing but a big hairy cur, they remind me of gang members on street corners, without the numbers they are nothing. They will not attack a predator animal and when they fight amongst one another they rarely bite each other other than little cur snaps and a little bit of noise to prove dominance, as soon as you hear a yelp there done...

    NGK
     
    david63 likes this.
  13. babedulce

    babedulce Big Dog

    That is exactly my point about wolves and their cur genetics, so answer the question directly, it is a yes or no answer. Is the grey wolf is the possesor of this gameness gene?
     
  14. capo

    capo Big Dog

    .....true for the most part.
     
  15. NGK

    NGK Top Dog

    It's only a yes or no answer if you believe that the grey wolf is the only source of K9 genetics on planet earth, sadly it's not quite that simple is it.

    NGK
     
  16. babedulce

    babedulce Big Dog

    ok, then tell me what these other sources of K9 genetics are, since fortunately you seem to know with scientific certainty.
     
  17. NGK

    NGK Top Dog

    Like branches on a tree, i'm sure your intelligent enough to understand how thousands of years can change a species. The bear for example has many different types some quite small others rather large, each has a wide variety of traits that differs from the other yet they remain in the same species that at one time was singular in its traits. I have a knack for reading between the lines and understanding whats being said on the undertones of a persons style of typing/writing. You type with eye's rolled and your mind made up which makes it difficult to have a civil intelligent conversation with you babedulce, you tend to lead the conversation with assumptions of what one may or may not know (with scientific certainty)...

    Since you would like to continue this conversation why don't you start with some facts about the grey wolf ie, the oldest known specimine etc... we can go from there :)

    NGK
     
  18. capo

    capo Big Dog

    ADAPTATION DEFINED
    .
    "ADAPTATION" can be a confusing term because of the many ways it is used. For example, "adaptation" can refer to both processes and products:


    (1) a "developmental" change such as that of a sense organ that make it less responsive to repetitive but irrelevant stimuli, or
    (2) an evolutionary change such as those caused by selection pressures on some attribute of a trait that helps the organism cope with a changing environment over the generations, or

    (3) a biological TRAIT that exists because it confers or is linked to a trait that now (or in the past) has conferred a biological advantage enhancing an organism's FITNESS.


    Organisms can be viewed as complex, interconnected ensembles of anatomical, physiological, or behavioral TRAITS that contribute to FITNESS --an individual's ability to survive, thrive, and reproduce. A major quality animals must manifest is a capacity to COPE with challenges to its fitness. Ordinarily, there is no attribute of an organism that can be defined (including the relationships between attributes and the timing of their expression) that is not subject to natural selection

    SO, when we speak of an organism's adaptations we are referring to traits subject to natural selection which persist because they contribute to fitness (or at least, contribute more than they cost). Adaptations are the means by which organisms cope with environmental changes and stresses.
    An Adaptation can be manifest at any level of organization from subcellular through the ecosystem in which any level of organism -- environment conformity can be discerned. Within a single organism, "adaptation" can encompass morphology, physiology, development (through organizational effects or through differential timing of developmental events), and behavior.

    ADAPTATION is a complex term because of the many ways it is used. It can refer to a TRAIT that confers some FITNESS on an animal, BUT it also represents the PROCESS by which that trait has come about.

    To be continued are further looked at... EVOLUTION - adaptation defined ...... ngk has a very valid point! And to answer that question being politically correct, this is the only way I see it. I was going to say survival of the fittest genes through selective breeding which means the more adapt are fit genes that arose the more they would come out in best to best breeding but that's not a wrong answer either cause its still adaptation gene wise throughout the course of time!
     
  19. babedulce

    babedulce Big Dog

    ok, NGK, you keep on convincing yourself that you are the last bastion of lost human enlightenment....but for the record just be aware that for every direct question that I have asked you have only provided vague convoluted answers that dance around getting to the point despite the fact that the very thing I initially querried you about was something that you wrote as though you were absolutley certain about it, and the fact is you have no factual evidence for what you wrote, it is all conjecture based on your own assumtions, and here you are giving me lessons about assumtions.

    This is what you wrote with absolute certainty and when questioned about its specific implications based on scientific common knowledge you were unable to answer at worst, or skirted the issue at best.

    "Let's start with the APBT, any trait that is found in any animal on earth had to be there to begin with for it to be present now. Man has surely increased the amount of game animals with selective breeding but man in no way "Created Gameness" in them."

    Again, common knowledge dictates that the origin of dogs is through the domestication of grey wolves, which, if your theory above in quotation marks is true, then the wolf is the carrier fo the "gameness gene." The genetic expression of any trait is directly tied to a specific gene, but per your own description, the wolf is a big hairy cur, and upon further explanation you insinuate that there must be another ancestor to the APBT capable of interbreeding with the wolf that carried this gene. Possible non-extinct candidates maybe be the jackal or the coyote but I would venture to think that you may have reached the same conclusion about theim being curs as well. So what does that leave...a honey badger maybe....LOL.

    The point is that you are not willing to give the wolf the credit as the possesor of the gameness trait (gene) that is not expressed in the wild but that by human-influenced selective breeding becomes an integral feature of the APBT. You are also not willing to offer any alternative subspecies capable of interbreeding with the wolf that can be even the possible possesor of this trait, which to me as a serious fault in your reasoning because absolutely no worthy theory can be acceptable to me, and should not be aceptable to you, without some inkling of scientific possibility, as in posible ancestor that could have carried this gene.

    Using your own premises, a valid possibility is that because of human intervention in the breeding of the domesticated dog through the use of different genetic sources within the wolf species a non lethal genetic mutation occured that may have eventually been isolated in the APBT breed expressed as "gameness." Thus gameness was created by humans.

    Now contrary to your approach, I am not stating with absolute certainty that this is the truth, I am merely stating that using your own premises I have reached a different conclusion, and because your conclusion lacks sound scientific evidence, it is mere conjecture and until you provide some kind of valid evidence to the contrary either the wolf is the possesor of the gameness gene or gameness IS the product of human creation.
     
  20. capo

    capo Big Dog

    Babedulce also has a clear valid point that, YES gameness is/was brought about by humans by selective breeding throughout the years it took to create the true form of the American Pitbull Terrier which is what evolution of adaptation is! (Lol @ the honey badger, first laugh of the day)
     

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