How the Patterdale Terrier came to be

Breay and Buck were life long freinds mate..Breays dogs were the same as Bucks dogs and they bred them in a breeding program together for about forty years...when Breay died and Buck was very old, Nuttall (and a few other breeders)contiued to breed the Breay/Buck terriers as pure as he could.
Breay moved to by the Lakedistrict from Wales bringing with him Sealeam type terriers..but seemd to switch his attention to Fell bred terriers.
now Sealeams were white in color.so that could be a reason as to why they still throw a white 'sport'in littters to day.
Pitdogs are also at the back and some of these were pied or white-with Nuttall stateing this in his interveiw with Darcy.
yup,they have also got white body(Russel types)terriers at the back to.
Cornish miners are said to have took white bodied terriers to the Lakes as early as 1830..
not only that, but look at Barkers dad..he brought white terriers from the Ilfacombe Badger digging club in the 1920s and crossed them with his colord terrier 'Chowt faced rock'to create his own strain of working terrier.hence why Middlton quite oftern through a white pup out of two colords.
Nuttall says in his interviwe with Darcy hes had these terriers for 62 years and in that time he has only ever bred three white pups..hes goes on to say he thinks this is because of Breays Sealehams.Frank Bucks lemon and white pied Bull Terrier.and he metions about his grandad useing two bull terriers in the line may years back.one of them being white with a black patch over its eye.

so yeah,theres many reasons for white 'sports' or dogs whith white feet and chest to apear.
also in Nuttalls interview theres a pic of a dog called 'Buck bred out of two blacks'.Buck is a chocolte dog with a red nose.
this color is supposedly linked two the Bedligton blood used by Dobsen..or the Spanial blood.and theres some evidence to suggest this color was introduced through Bedlington and spanial blood.with Plummer mentioning this in his book.
but 'Buck bred out of two blacks'.looks quite simpley, to me,like a small very strong APBT(dam he looks near pure APBT)....so its very possible this chocolate color was introduced into the bloodlines by a APBT cross,just as much as the Bedlington or spaniel blood i think.

All the best.

Ill try pm ya on this when i got the time.

 

I didn't think Middleton had white in his working Lakeland strain off of Rock. He was said to have thrown all black Lakeland terriers from time to time. Since the JRT was before the Patterdale i was wondering if they crossed to it at some point and never told any one. Ed chapman had some good ones. But the question is do red terriers produce more whites then any other color.

 

Na mate..Middilton never bred a all black dog.black and tan or tan and black, but never all black...he bred many whites out of two colords.i have his book.
the JRT is not a breed.the JRT dose not trace back to Russels strain.and a white terrier should.in my oppinion, be called a Sothern White Terrier.as white terriers were bred by many breeders apart from Russel...
if your dogs are red mate it will be because they trace back to Breays Rusty..if you see white on the paws or chest thats because Rusty was bred to Tex and Tex had these markings.so they will crop up from time to time...

Get Middletons book mate..its cheap enough.
get the patterdale book to.and the Fell book by Plummer.
the author of Middiltons and the Patterdale book is Sean Frain and he has just relised a new book dedicated purely to Brian Nuttal..i think this new book is called "the Patterdale terrier of the Brian Nuttall strain".

I will try and pm you some stuff at a later date.out of the middilton and fell terrier book.

 

Yes i have all the books you listed and the Irish ones as well. My terriers are of the Gould - Middleton decent so it is stated on paper they throw mainly broken coats reds & blacks with smooth coats being the low percentages. Last litter 2 brokens 1 red smooth no white black on muzzle. The female all black. The other male mark up and coat like a border. I have never had white on the feet or chest of the ones i bred or the ones i have seen before. Question was is red recessive to white on fell type terriers. Or was this due to the breeding or adding of bull blood, pit dog blood, staff blood, Russell blood, White terrier blood or any other concoction Breay Buck or Nuttall used back in the day that would throw white terriers that look like Russells. I should mention my las breeding was that of a inbreeding as well. My main stud looks like that of the one Joe Armstrong is holding on page 84 of plums book. I will attach the picture on 84. Aslo picture of the male smooth i am talking about.

 

Your throwing Broken coats because your dogs are the mix you just said.Middiltons dogs had real thick hard coats.were as Goulds were some what smoother.so you cross em, or inbreed on them crossed ones,and thats the type of coat you get.

im not sure about red and white if its recessive or not mate.i really dont care to be honest.
im just under the presumtion that most colors will throw the odd white every now and then.and if you breed two whites together you get a sort of mostly white race.what i mean is the whites will breed true to type.

Breay started of with white terriers.
Buck had a white pit dog.
Nuttals grandad also used a white pitdog.
Barkers dogs were a mix.the male being colord and yes sir!-HE WAS RED.the two gyps he had being WHITE.
plenty of other white bodied terriers were bred in to Lakeland strains..a lot of these Lakeland strains were mostly red or tan.

thats all i can really think about of the top of my head when it comes to red or white lol.

Anyway...color martters not.
keep up the good work mate.your dogs look mighty fine.and thats the main thing-the working qualitys.

All the best mate....
and im glad you got them books..(thank fuck).saves me sending/writeing you a huge pm lol.

 

For sure color doesn't matter to me it matters to the USA fella. He stated reds produce more whites funny thing is i haven't seen it here so i will view it a myth like breeding two red red nose dogs together and getting a black. I thought the red ones came from Bowman that Breay had. It was said that breay had borders before that old sly school teacher.

 

There no proof to suggest red terriers through more white sports.
not the Breay/Buck red ones anyway..if anything this type.that is the black or red Bullish/Border type..throws the least white sports.

The other more Lakey/Irish terrier looking red ones (like Middletons)throw higher percentige of white sports.

Breay did mate on to a Border Terrier at some point.as Frank Bucks Tex is a quter Border..and Tex was bred in to there line.i think Tex was claimed as Bucks best dog.taking over a hundred foxes of one fell in one season.
so they did add Border...but Breay started of with Seleam types...
Nuttall says Breay soon realised that there was not enough Badgers in the Lakes so crossed his Seleams to local Fell types.
and theres proof of this in Plummers book.as the only pedigree Breay ever wrote is in that book and one of the dogs at the back of that pedigree is a white Sealeam called Barker.
he did use Border..but he started of with Sealeams.

All the best mate.

 

Infact of reading that pedigree..
Barkers dad was a East Kent hunt terrier that was white.
his mum was red.his mums mum was red.but her mum a bitch called Wendy is white...
so in the whole pedigree of Breay/Buck dogs..only three are white.
very slim chances of getting whites out of them now ide say.

 

Neil has stated that since the inception of the black terriers they only been known as black lakelands or black terriers, This was stated in a interview. Working Lakeland type produces quite different then show Lakeland terriers.

 

Ive noticed the diffrence between the working Lakeland and the show Lakeland...
not that ive been around any of either enough to make any sort of judgment,but a couple things ive spoted between the small number i have seen is the show ones are large.and they have a rather soft touch to there coat.and the eaaiest spot for me to notice its a show dog is its tail..show dogs tails curl over man.
working ones dont..working one coats are proper hard to the touch and the colour on the working ones is not as coulorful as the show ones..
fucking thing with show dogs is people focus more on its cosmetic looks,and within a short time, the dogs dont resemble what they came from...

Fucking dose me head in.

 

Not Many believe Kenny to have bred Russell into his fell/Patterdale Terriers. I argued this point at one time DNA shows another story. Then later this same person who was hunting regular for kenny states that Kenny did bred Russell into his Fell/Patterdale Terrier type. I believe the history to be so muddy not sure if people will ever find out the truth.

 

This is right. Type not breed

 

P.s. old Kenny's stuff did produce broken coats till he bred more staff in

 

In a nutshell the patterdale is a blend of earth dogs from Lancashire(not patterdale,witch is in the Lakedistrict)crossed with pit bred dogs.

Nuttall won’t tell you that.
Them big heads and that jet black colour just appeared from no were lol.

 

I think some lines will go back to russles mate.

 

And look at some bull Russell’s!
Monsters.

 

Great little dogs.

 

More then we know

 

Buck's famous Tex