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Jeep v Frisco: who is top ROM?

Discussion in 'APBT Bloodlines' started by The Keep Book, Jul 11, 2019.

  1. The Keep Book

    The Keep Book Reclusive Misanthrope Premium Member

    I always thought Jeep was #1, but browsing recent pages I have seen quite a few folks saying Frisco is top ROM. Jeep was bred to a gazillion gyps but hadn't Garner been storing up frozen Friscos for artificial insemination, which would have made it feasible for Frisco to surpass Jeep? Who is the current top ROM of all time?
  2. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

  3. oldguy

    oldguy Top Dog

    Thanks AGK.. From what I can see, 7 of the 11 above listed dogs is either Jeep himself and/or Jeep crosses anyway.. Just sayin!
  4. The Keep Book

    The Keep Book Reclusive Misanthrope Premium Member

    Props. Jeep apparently was by far the best producer. I had been wondering about Mayday as well, since I recall when his pups started becoming Gr Chs starting with Lukane.
    mccoypitbulls and AGK like this.
  5. oldguy

    oldguy Top Dog

    Remember I watched something online where Richard Garcia stated " a Jeep dog would never bite ya!" I had a Lonzo bred dog would bite me every time I walked away, a Clemmons dog that would grab me every time I pick him up, and a Boyles x Banjo x Reid cross tried killing me when I filled his water bowl one time.. Thought then I need to get me a Jeep dog ;)
  6. FrozenEli

    FrozenEli Big Dog

    Ask Tom Garner if Jeep is number 1?
  7. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    I'm confused just a bit y'all. I was reading this and had some things I'd like to mention.
    Are we talking POR ...or ROM....because this thread is a bit of both by the original post.
    Also Keep Book...great to point out how the frozen game can impact this list..never thought of of that being such a factor...but certainly is.

    AGK...I did not realize that site had lists section. That is the site i used for my breedings to make virtual pedigrees also..and I never noticed that.
    I will say that the female list of of ROM dogs seems to not have a couple notable bitches that are not on it. Roxy Rom being one.
    I think she was up there in points also...????

    Maybe this list contains dogs from all parts of world, and the previous list i had seen had just dogs of America...??

    I'm not sure there can be a current list, and most certainly this is another numbers game.
    The Keep Book likes this.
  8. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    Any of them crossed with the Frisco stuff??
    I tell ya
    .IV got a lil pistol on the yard that Has all that blood..kinda crossed line and ..kind of a Heinz 57 of blood.. like mentioned above..but he has all the right blood behind him...to explain the way he is.
    A knuckle head of an asshole ...
  9. The Keep Book

    The Keep Book Reclusive Misanthrope Premium Member

    I never could figure out how POR worked, but this can conceivably (pardon the pun) apply to it as well as ROM.

    Crunching the numbers it seems that both Jeep and Mayday were better producers than Frisco. Jeep sired 7 Gr Chs in 66 breedings and Mayday sired 5 Gr Chs in 91 breedings, both of which are very impressive. Frisco sired 7 Gr Chs in 130 breedings which is less (though still very) impressive. Who of the three was at stud for the longest--well, is Frisco still technically "open to stud" via TG's stash of Frisco-cicles? If I had a dog who produced like any of the top three on this list, I would do precisely what TG did/does and freeze as much of him as was feasible. (I wonder in how many of Frisco's "breedings" he met the bitches he fertilised.)
  10. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    What has frozen produced at this point ?
  11. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    I took it as we are talking about R.O.M

    This was R.O.M list in the SDJ 1998 yearbook.

  12. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    R.O.M. (Register of Merit). Is a title that is given to a dog that has produced champions. To become R.O.M., a male dog must produce at least four CH and a bitch must produce at least three CH. Each dog gets a point for each CH they produce and get an additional point if any of these registered champions go on to become grand champions.
    The title of R.O.M. is the most honorable, it is assigned to dogs that have performed excellent in the offspring.
    R.O.M. and Grand Champion titles at the same time have only a few dozen dogs in the 200-year history of fighting.


    The Producer of Record (POR) is a title which was set up to reflect the true nature of a dogs ability to produce. A great producer does one thing, and that is produce bulldogs consistently. It is the sole duty of the POR title to reflect the genetic ability of these bulldogs.

    These bulldogs are found and reflected upon in many ways, what the POR does, is unique. All aspect and accomplishments of their offspring, is weighed and then measured next to consistency. The POR system is very simple, and direct.

    All bulldogs will have their offspring's accomplishments listed in this fashion, with no exceptions.

    (during a show)
    A dog that curs............ -3.0 points
    A dog picked up game....... 1.0 point
    1st win.................... 1.0 point
    2nd win.................... 2.0 points
    3rd win.................... 3.0 points
    4th win.................... 4.0 points
    5th win or more............ 5.0 points

    Example.... A dog who has won 2, and picked up game on its 3rd would receive 1.0 point for its 1st, 2.0 points for its 2nd, and 1.0 point for being picked up game. Total = 4 points for its sire and dam.

    (producing producers)
    Every dog that produces a POR, they are to receive 6.0 points.

    Example.... A dog has produced 2 POR dogs, they are to receive 12.0 points.


    Each point will only account for 2 dogs, 1.0 point = 2 offspring. (if a dog has 20 points, they can have no more than 40 offspring. If a dog has 50 points, they can have no more than 100 offspring)

    Any dog who does not have enough points to account for its offspring, does not deserve the POR title.

    Example.... A bitch that has 10.0 points, and 20 or less offspring, she has reached the POR title. If the same bitch has 21 offspring and only 10.0 points, she is not POR.

    There is no difference in the scoring for males and females, all are held to the same standard, and must not exceed the points to offspring ratio.
  13. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    how could any one be able to keep up with that system , and a dog gets the same point for a winner ,as a dog who gets picked up early before he quits is not right ? why shouuld a loser get any points ?
    oldguy likes this.
  14. old goat

    old goat CH Dog

    LOL man you're not still believe frozen dog can't and don't produce are you .?
    bamaman likes this.
  15. The Keep Book

    The Keep Book Reclusive Misanthrope Premium Member

    Props AGK for explaining POR. It is a lot more complicated than I thought but it makes sense, e.g. a dog gets a point for being picked up game.
    david63 and AGK like this.
  16. The Keep Book

    The Keep Book Reclusive Misanthrope Premium Member

    Boy howdy, that induced a flood of nostalgia. Reading through the slideshow I felt as though I was back in San Francisco in the late 90s tracking the campaigns of all those famous dogs who went on to become Gr Chs and ROMs--as well as quite a few such as Black Cat Jr, Suboy, Ironman, Stone, Ms Cowboy, Witch Hunt, Smack and Rambo who became famous for all the wrong reasons.
    AGK likes this.
  17. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    It would be hard to keep a running tally going unless one kept everything they bred and checked everything they bred themselves. In the days of the various journals it was probably easier because most people who were active were reporting the results. The magazines probably kept a pretty good count.

    The point for a GL is probably because POR is basically a measurement of the dogs ability to produce working dogs, not just winners. While the dog may have loss, he still showed game so a point is given or subtracted If he quit to reflect that.

    POR is a title which was set up to reflect the true nature of a dogs ability to produce gamedogs consistently not just winners like ROM.

    Personally I feel it's a better guage of working dogs than R.O.M. is. You can have several hundred offspring to make 4 Ch's and be R.O.M.
    You can't do that with P.O.R.
    It shows # of working dogs vs # of offspring.

    Take Frisco for example, 1284 offspring if you believe Pedsonline to be accurate, which It's not but for arguments sake, lets say that it is. Frisco would need 642 points to make P.O.R. vs 4 points to make R.O.M. Which one do you think would be easier to achieve? Especially when you throw in the fact the many curs he has produced along with all those winning dogs. That very well could make his points go down as well as his producer status unlike the R.O.M system..
  18. The Keep Book

    The Keep Book Reclusive Misanthrope Premium Member

    Yet another thing I wondered about Frisco: if he produced a lot of curs, something that might be expected of a hard-mouthed dog who wouldn't make even one scratch (assuming that story is true) but was bred to everything that walked, crawled and flew. Addendum to my above post: I'd store up a dog who produced well IF he was a proven game dog. Jeep and Mayday both went the distance and were good producers. Mayday popped out Chs and Gr Chs like a gumball machine in the late 90s after he himself became Gr Ch.
  19. Yango

    Yango Pup

    My credit goes to Jeep. Recall the great controversy that there was in the SDJ because Frisco was going to move to Jeep in the ROM list through champions made in Japan of which nobody knew anything. Champions in the name of Matsubara & Garner with the names of Cisco, Rambo or Charlie. Another paper champion is Castro's Torito. That led many of the big names in the sport to complain and sign a document demanding JK to stop publishing in the SDJ all shows outside of the USA and Mexico. We Europeans stop reporting at the SDJ and look for other sites such as the AGDT or a European magazine.
  20. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    Game loss means nothing , I know some dogs picked up in under 30 mins , not injured , picked up before they quit , and later photos / pedigrees posted with them as game 1xL ..some people leave deep game dogs down way too long till dog can't go and the opponents side calling it a cur , I think the ROM system is the only way ,
    Dred Lok Kennels, david63 and AGK like this.

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