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Non US lines

Discussion in 'APBT Bloodlines' started by GK1, Feb 19, 2019.

  1. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    I am sure it happens everywhere. I guess since I live here and see it here I just assume we are more guilty than the next.

    There are a ton of great breeders in the US but money and show dogs have ruined many working breeds.

    Most anyone with any working dog knowledge, or bull dog knowledge, will look at the picture and avoid those dogs like the plague. But like it was said before, to the unknowing, when Google says that is a pit bull, and Google is Gospel, then that is indeed a pit bull.

    It is the same even when it is not taken to the extremes.

    When I inherited the Austrian bred Rottweiler I learned so much about working dogs. I had bulldogs but never a working/service type dog. At 12 months I guess he was 70-ish pounds. At full maturity he was maybe 90 at best. I thought it was something wrong with him because he was so much smaller than the other Rottweilers in the club.

    In America we beef'em up and breed the big ones. When I see European working lines they are typically smaller than their US brethren.

    And coming form the bulldogs where conditioning is the name of the game I was shocked at how the owners/handlers had little regard to actual conditioning. At my first Schutzund trial in the mid-90's I found it some what laughable. It was 95+. The number of dogs gasping, what I would call blowing hot, amazed me for no more physical effort/length of effort for each activity. This one lady pulled he German Shephard from the tracking event because of the heat. I was like tracking, is basically walking along a trail/track, and it is too hot for that. My Rottweiler had time on a carpet mill, pulled chains and was lean and really fit at 90-ish pounds.

    This gets away from the topic of the original post but may be one of the underlying reasons breeders have to go back to the source and there is not continual generations. One, there is not enough selection in the process. Two, sometimes it is re-added for the appearance of work/service breeding. Three, sometimes the bringing something back makes it more valuable/sellable.

    And again, tons of great breeders of great working dog here int he US, bulldogs especially, but over time the not so greats have taken the forefront. We see their dogs before we see real working dogs, or better yet, with Google, we have better access to their dogs than real working dogs.

    cottonmouthcur and Lrs like this.
  2. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Referenced the other thread about exotic pit bulls.

    It is the 5AM brain scramble.

  3. oldguy

    oldguy Top Dog

    During the 80's/90's there was a UK bulldog publication called Pitbull News.. Dogs from nearly every bloodline and family were either advertised at stud, or for sale.. Most (although not all) Pitbull owners in UK kept small yards of around 2 to 6 dogs in the back yards of urban social housing, kept a treadmill in the toilet (scar kennels) and schooled their dogs in the spare bedroom when their wives went shopping;) That's a galaxy away from USA where people own 10 acres of land, keep 20 dogs on chains and have outbuildings to mess around and keep dogs healthy.. Towards the end of the 80's NKK imported this dog from Texas.. http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=4988
    Stud fee was £1000 and them that could afford it bred to the dog.. I saw some of Swamper's offspring go through their paces and stated openly how disappointed I was in them, NKK's reply was "Bullyson dogs don't produce in high percentages, but when you do get a good one, it's a real good one!" I thought 'fuck me' what good is that if all you can keep on your yard is 4 dogs? Let me say I don't know anything about Bullyson dogs, I'm only repeating what NKK told me!.. I learned pretty quick though, better to just breed my own mutts that were known for throwing high percentage litters, than paying a fortune for studs or pups out of a superstar line that might throw one Jurassic meat eater in every third litter.. All my pups got given away free to people around me, we selected, culled and kept the best, never any question of selling pups since nobody else wanted them anyway =))
    david63, Southbanker, Lrs and 3 others like this.
  4. GK1

    GK1 Big Dog

    Interesting story @oldguy...constraints/restraints of logistics, society.
    Fair to say good representatives of respective working breeds are where you find them anywhere across the globe. Breeders in the US have been successful with certain American breeds such as Labradors, Coonhounds, and the APBT of course.

    @slim: show me a 3 plus generation pedigree of strictly US bred Rottweilers or German Shepherds where all ancestors are titled in sport (IPO, Sch etc), health surveyed, or are service dogs (scent, SAR, LE etc). AKC show ring dogs don’t count. I think you’d be hard pressed to come up with a single pedigree without European dogs somewhere in there. Yet 1000s of such working pedigrees are available in Europe with European-only breeding.

    In my original post I’m turning the table using the performance bred APBT as the control sample: are there 3+ generation peds with all ancestors qualified/certified for work/sport with zero US bred dogs? (Maybe this question is unfair for a number of reasons, but I just throw it out there for the pedigree nerds.)

    Sounds like there are some maybe from the UK, or Eastern Europe, but I’d like to see one posted here, alive or long dead - from one of the online pedigree databases available to the public.

    Historical examples of one purely American working dog and one German.

  5. reids skipper

    reids skipper Top Dog

    I think that was the problem people imported so called super dogs paying big money for them and made even bigger money off them at stud ! ... how many brought dogs over tried them and said theyre rubbish and culled them ? ...not many i bet ...they brought them over with the intention to make money off them imo
    Lrs, DISCOIII and oldguy like this.
  6. reids skipper

    reids skipper Top Dog

    Don’t know if i’m misreading your post bulldoghistorian ? But it reads like you saying swamper was behind scallywag ... the one over here wasn’t down from swamper ?
  7. nah now dont take my word for it as I get things messed up these days , but the only one I can recall off swamper was a 2 timer called skallywag
    now dont quote me on this but I was down in the middle of a country picking up a dog and calls were made I was in the area thats how in heard the name

    by the way did u hear the story about the black and the brindle brother
    how Hooten called to the uk and colors changed from the dogs Bobby send

    mr skipper when we meet pour me a proper rum I have many stories some are true most are exaggerated , but I can tell u the times me and old texas got it on
  8. old guy I think we must know each other the history u tell our paths must have crossed
    I am guessing u over 60 , an old fart keeping a few staying under the radar
    cause the stuff u talking about is way back and I only know 2 or 3 who would know a dog called John Wayne and the old NKK stuff and I am sure out of those 3 a few have already died
  9. reids skipper

    reids skipper Top Dog

    The European Scallywag you mention bdh was down from bullyson / eli stuff same as swamper but not off him and the 2xw was not down from swamper but off china
  10. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    reids skipper likes this.
  11. kiwidogman

    kiwidogman Big Dog

    They aren’t rare at all. Expect to see more as logistics and legalities constrain importation.

  12. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    I doubt it as well.

    I agree good dogs are where you find them. Good breeders as well. If one is breeding dogs that originated in one place to perpetuate the breed then I would think odds are you go to the source.

    I would think the opposite would be true with the APBT going to Europe/Asia. Maybe not to the high percentage of Shep/Rotts here.

    People go to the source.

    Lrs likes this.
  13. oldguy

    oldguy Top Dog

  14. oldguy

    oldguy Top Dog

    Well I sort of remember spending a lovely day with you and our good friend who associated with them Redboy imports you mentioned, as well as Frisco, Kemmer and Aries dogs.. You had the black destroyer and his brindle mother there, but I liked a young Carver female, she was Brown and white with amber eyes.. I said I 'sort of remember' that day because after stealing your ideas on breeding and conditioning during the afternoon, you then produced a bottle of moonshine vodka, distilled in a kitchen somewhere in Czech Republic and poured into a lemonade bottle.. I remember the first glass, vaguely recall the second and by the third I hadn't just forgotten the info I stole from you.. I couldn't even remember the name of our friend and I knew him 30 years:-O
    david63, palooka, Carolinacur and 3 others like this.
  15. oldguy

    oldguy Top Dog

    Alan and Fred still going strong, the ones further south I don't know
  16. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    Here is a 3 Gen pedigree, near all in the pedigree ware matched , and none bred bred in USA ,,Im sure there are many more
    He won one and lost one ,,Louie

    palooka and kiwidogman like this.
  17. greenzone

    greenzone Pup

  18. greenzone

    greenzone Pup

  19. greenzone

    greenzone Pup

  20. stickler

    stickler Big Dog

    The german dog actually was an ex-east germany bred dog. Almost not the same breed as the dogs from the west at that time.
    More or less a closed gene pool. And real monsters. Working place for them dogs was The Wall.

    And just wanna say hello to Black Jesus :-B

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