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Pitbulls as K-9 dogs

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by ZeboGhost, Aug 28, 2019.

  1. Box Bulldog

    Box Bulldog Top Dog

    That's pretty stupid rule since the American pit bull terrier was used for American war propaganda years ago and there was dogs such as sgt. stubby ec. There was pit dogs used going back to the civil war. How a animal was so highly admired at one time has been band everywhere is beyond me.
     
    SMD760, AGK and bamaman like this.
  2. Box Bulldog

    Box Bulldog Top Dog

  3. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I guess it is ironic.

    I never looked at it like that.

    I never lived on base in base housing, only in the barracks, so having a dog was never an option.

    But it is like there is now a disconnect between now and history.

    S
     
    PlugUgly, david63, AGK and 2 others like this.
  4. Box Bulldog

    Box Bulldog Top Dog

  5. david63

    david63 CH Dog

    I don't agree with it but that's the rules.
     
    AGK and Box Bulldog like this.
  6. thecableguy

    thecableguy Big Dog

    I always thought k9 were teeth on a dog I had no idea it was a breed or cop dog
     
  7. stickler

    stickler Banned

    From a letter I got yrs ago.
     
  8. GK1

    GK1 Big Dog

    some great pics above from box bulldog.. i was at the evening parade at 8th/I Barracks in DC recently. old tradition of English Bulldog 'LCpl Chesty' as the Corps' mascot.
    --
    i’m all for the bulldog doing handler protection work, and i know the capability is out there in a select few game bred dogs, just not consistently within the lines of the established kennels. even so, i'd have to see to believe a pit bull performing even nearly as effectively as a good working shepherd across multiple disciplines of obedience, athleticism, fight intensity against a resisting human opponent.
    years ago i spoke with Pat Patrick on the phone inquiring about this subject. i think he thought i was speaking cryptically as he kept trying to sell me a young female he guaranteed was game and ready to go to work. once he figured out my questions were literal, he said he didn’t his dogs were not cut out for man work. i believe he was honest.
     
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  9. GK1

    GK1 Big Dog

    that is, pp didn't think his dogs were cut out for man work.
     
    AGK likes this.
  10. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I would think there are more than enough physical skills for the pit bull to be extremely successful doing man-work-sport-work. They could more than likely get to the title stage in prey drive alone.

    The separation would come from what they were bred for over last XXX amount of years.

    If you picked the best Malinois/Shep program on the planet, pulled the pedigrees and went back 8-12 generations and pulled a dog who was used for herding work, the traced his lineage forward to today. Those dogs will not be suitable for high end service work either.

    It is all about finding the physical skills (easy part) and the the mental skills (not so easy part) and the ability to be stressed and return to normal without the lingering effects of stress (nerves -the hardest part) and then selectively breed from there.

    It is much easier said than done. But I have often said there was a sheep herder many years ago who knew his dogs really well said, "you are going to do what? with what? Really?", ....dumbass!"

    The working-service dog creators never started with a blank canvas. They had something to start with. If they had chosen a pit bull way back when and used the same efforts then the bull dog would be much further down the line in the field.

    But they did not, so the bull dog can bring all the physical skills, some of the mental skills but until someone puts in a hundred years of man work and selectively breed for man-work there will always be separation.

    When it comes to man work/service work that Malinois/Shep family outclasses the bulldog group by tons.

    S
     
  11. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    I have a Dutch Shepherd as a guard dog , they are natural guard / protection dogs,
     
    oldguy likes this.
  12. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    This is one of my favorite dog topics, basically dogs that do jobs, real jobs.

    I am not sure of the number but I would say in the very high 90's, the percent of dogs that we think will defend will actually bail when it hits the fan. Nature provides them with a survival instinct that chooses flight over fight. Some will fight to defend their territory, their food, their offspring, their human family but when it gets rough they will bail.

    This hurts a lot of people's feelings because it gives the warm fuzzies to think ol' Spot has my back thru thick and thin. They are simply not built that way. Dogs that will stay and truly defend have to be trained to do that and success in that training takes nerves. Those nerves have to be built upon and developed step by step.

    Understanding that having a big dog in the yard, and for whatever reason a black dog, is about all the home security anyone will ever really need. No burglar will break into a house with a dog barking on the other side. They may case the joint and find out Spot will trade your TV for a couple of hotdogs but odds are they will not push the door in to meet Spot for the first time.

    I had Fila Brasileiros for the longest. Great family protector as a breed but the dogs have to be checked individually because not all will do all that is advertised. Some will protect so much so they are a complete liability. I work a lot of nights and had a wife and kid at home so it was an easy choice for me, to be judged by 12 is better that being carried by 6. Of the 6-8 we had over the years I had three that would absolutely kill another human being if one came in our house. The liability was they would do the same to the delivery man, your buddy who stopped by to chat, the next door neighbor, any one, any time. Pretty much like a loaded gun analogy.

    I think I have posted this before but my friend and I put on our bite suits and football helmets and we broke into each others houses. At the time I had one female that would have planted him that very day and one male that I think would have done way more than enough to stop him but if it was a drug crazed lunatic who kept coming....I am not sure. The bad part about natural protectors is they can't wind down. That bitch was jacked up and stressed for hours after that. She spun up but she had no training nor a mechanism to release/relax.

    He had a female that was close to the same, a male that was a total bust (did not live up to the advertisement/hype). I had another female that was OK but nothing to write home about and a male that would have helped them load the TV if they patted him on the head.

    Just in our small specimen we had dogs that were across the board and they were bred with protection in mind (actually bred for weak nerves and extreme territorial issues which is how some define/see protection...LOL)

    Back to the bulldogs. They simply were not bred to this type of work. Can they? Yes, but it is the exception. For every one that can there are thousands who can't. It would take years and years of selective breeding to develop a strain of bulldogs who retain all the things that make them great dogs, minus the dog aggression, and add the development in the nerve department.

    This is a great topic. Great series of posts.

    S
     
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  13. stickler

    stickler Banned

    There is a shot of pits in all of them Malinois of today. I have heard the cross has been made 30-40 years ago with a pit dog from Holland.
    :-$;)
     
    Dusty Road likes this.
  14. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    A great comparison between the two. I sold some carpet mills at a weight pull once and there was some man-work being done. One of the guys used pit bull and American Bulldog crosses. They were impressive. I forget his name but he explained it really well.

    When he sent his Malinois out and it engaged a bad guy that dog went from 0 to 100 in a blink of an eye. It would fight to no end, pretty much as long as the perp fought, the dog would fight. He could walk up give the out command, and secure the bad guy and then give the dog a tennis ball. The tennis ball was the dog's mechanism for release. With the tennis ball the dog would go from 100 back to 0. (or as close to 0 as a high strung Malinois can get).

    Take a bulldog who has just engaged with another bulldog. He is 14-16 feet away and pulling for all he is worth to get back across.

    The intensity of both dogs are similar. Their desire to engage is very similar. Their willingness to stay is very similar. It looks like one could fill the others shoes in the work force.

    Then throw down a tennis ball in front of that bulldog. See if he gives a fuck!

    It would take a hundred breedings or more to get that out of him.

    S
     
  15. stickler

    stickler Banned

    I remember a young dog at his starting session was scratching straight to the place where his ball was. Nobody knew about the ball, but the dog knew.
    He looked hot in the corner and ready to go, but all he got in his mind was the ball, lol. That was funny.
    He was never tried again at home :D Game little dog.
     
  16. GK1

    GK1 Big Dog

    yeah Stickler the Dutch to their credit were open to cross breeding for the sake of performance/structure, influencing the modern day KNPV lines popular with security agencies across the globe.

    >95% of people who think they need a “protection dog”, usually requires a sturdy looking dog that can put on a display of force toward strangers when the owner isn’t home, or act as an alarm to alert the owner to investigate, call 9-1-1, retrieve the overmatch device, etc. most criminals are creatures of opportunity, looking for the easiest, quickest mark and won’t challenge a fit looking dog focused on him, unless they know the dog personally. of course there are a few characters out there who only respond to the language of violence.

    virtually any pit bull whose owner gives a shite about bonding with the dog can develop the alarm dog trait easily imo. the female in my avatar is an outstanding stranger alarm.

    training is a big piece of it, even with the best of genetics for man work. dog has to target human not the sleeve, work for handler and with handler, not for toys or other bribes. but that is another age old debate among the trainers from the old school and new.
     
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  17. stickler

    stickler Banned

    I just realized that this is a female in your avatar. :-O wow
     
  18. Great topic...some great info by folk to...
    Slim,that stuff about your Fillas had me in hysterics.great test ,breaking into each others houses..tho I would sooner try anything else lol....

    Intreasting the way the Bulldog has been recently crossed with the Sheapards dog/man work dog(as you just pointed out GK1)...tho these crosses have been common since time begun I suppose.(for all sorts of reasons)......I've seen many crosses between Bulldogs and other mutts to create a big bad man eater,but unfortunately,I've never met anybody who was actually safe to own such a monster...but I've seen some real monsters.stuff what don't look out of place on Assyrien bass relief....it's rather easy to create some mean looking thing,but to proceed and get the best out of the best is no easy thing at all...still, I'm rather convinced, that crossing Bulldogs to man eaters like big mastiffs of Sheapards dogs or bigger Sheapards dogs like them Kengal dogs-produces the most wicked creature for man work ever...(tho people may doubt this)...
    It's no coinsidence that poncey game keepers in England for centuries,crossed Bulldogs to there bigger mastiff type cousin,to detear there poaching rivels...
    The Spanish used Bull type dogs in there conquests ruthlessly ,,so did the Portuguese -witch gave rise to the Fillas we just been talking about...we go back even further in time and we find the Sheapards who kept big Kengal type dogs always recommended a cross with bull type or mastiff type dogs.to increase skull structure and gameness and ferociousness in there stock..(lot of talk at the moment on Kengal's!,intreasting to note the skull structure on them-its quite obvious a bull type or fighting type dog has been bred in over the years-the two breeds are quite different-and come from totally separate origins)......down the ages many tribes and people used a cross with the bull type fighting dog for man work..as you say GK1,most people just need a deterent...but in ages gone buy they needed a lot more then that.....

    Some one should try this on a serious note...
    It would be tricky-a few people may need burying LOL,in this experiment. ...but it'll be all worth it LOL......

    @ Slim...could you imagine them Fillas you had, if they had a touch of a bad man eating Bulldog like Zebo (for you Zebo nut!,if you can actually read this much)..or Bullyson???...just a touch Slim,,breed it out so the dogs were still actually Fillas in TYPE....a out cross...like how they were created in the first place....

    Great talking with you all folks...

    I hope every genuine Dog-Man on here,and there loved ones,are doing good -and if this is spelt wrong it's my shitty old fashioned computer LOL....

    Soze. ....YIS
     
    LisaWM likes this.
  19. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I am not a fan of crossing the dogs with intense prey drive to dogs who are defensively driven/territorial type dogs. What usually happens is dog retains the defensive nerve set but with the desire to go forward and make something that is moving stop.

    A not so friendly term is 'kid-killer'.

    Now when these dogs are bred by people who are working them and keeping them within their fold, I can see where they can be a beast of a protection dog.

    When I was doing some man work in the late 80's early 90's I seen a few of these but mostly I saw people breeding their dogs with their nuts vs. their brains. You can only imagine the results.

    There was a board some years back called the Bandog Banter. it was some really knowledgeable people there and most had some sort of cross, and most involved a pit or bull dog of sorts. But as a whole they frowned upon the crosses as most people are not capable of dealing with a normal dog, much less a four legged monster of a dog. They approved of the crosses for themselves but highly discouraged them for people who would not work the shit out of them.

    The guy of Noseringer fame crossed a Mountain Man Homer bred bulldog to either a Presa or Cane Corso (I forget which one). Those young dogs were freak looking, basically a very man aggressive 110lb pit bull. There three of them there all popping chains coming for us, one even backing up to the other side of the chain and for all intents and purposes, he was scratching to us. Only a few times in my life have I actually been scared of a dog, that was one of them. And they were ten month old puppies.

    There is a guy here in NC that actively works dogs and his Malinois show some pit traits. Nothing to hide as he shows it in his hand made pedigrees. His dogs are for working, not breeding. And he says although the pit he chose was more of a pet bull, and a half ass game family of dogs, he did see an increase in dog aggression with his Malinois. So much so it eliminates some good dogs from his working program.

    Although it works, I am not a fan. Just like with my Filas the liability is out of this world.

    S
     
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  20. SMD760

    SMD760 Big Dog

    I agree all you need is a dog people are afraid of and that will stop a robbery. About five months ago someone tried to break in to my place only my dog was home. they drilled the locks but decided not to go in! Had they decided to go in I think he would’ve bit them because he is very protective of the home but he also might’ve ran to the other room who knows?
     
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