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Producing BALANCED Athletes

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by thegentleman, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. I am trying to produce a more balanced performer i.e dogs that have equal amounts of; gameness, mouth, ability and wind. Should I breed to balanced dogs or dogs that possess the extreme levels of the traits I require?

    For example I have a bitch that has extreme gameness and wind but lacks mouth and ability.... She is down from a family of bulldogs that are like this and throw it in high %.......But I need more mouth and ability!!! Should I be looking to put a male over her that has extreme mouth and ability even though he may lack wind and gameness? Would this produce better BALANCED athletes for me? Or a mish mash of extreme unbalanced offspring like the parents?


    Should I be looking to breed her to a male that is already balanced and has equal amounts of; gameness, mouth, ability and wind ?

    Your opinions please!

  2. ben brockton

    ben brockton CH Dog

    it's not that easy.you can't really add what ain't in the makeup to begin with. at the end of the day they carry & pass good genes or they don't. things your going on about are opinions that verry. the best wsy to gage is off the parents & there siblings & the offspring will be a combo of there fam avg. it's 60% folks behind the dogs & 40% the dogs themselves. but genealogy is the determinant over all.
  3. back2basics

    back2basics Big Dog

    If you go down that road plan on keeping all the offspring to find out if it works.
  4. You have the most important trait of all game ness. Keep breeding those game dogs and when your mouth shows you'll have a true freak of nature. You could always search out an find one that's throwing a good percentage of both and go from there.
  5. doginhold

    doginhold Top Dog

    If you breed a female that lacks something look out for a male that has the traits she´s lacking!
    It´s of major importance that he also has the traits that already exist within your female but also brings the traits she´s missing! Look out for a proven producer that is able to pass it´s qualities dominant!
    If you want to produce on a solid level don´t outcross! Stay within the line or a proven cross that is known to work well with the line you are working!
    Most important is that the male is known to produce good with different females already!
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2012
  6. Dream Pits

    Dream Pits CH Dog

    If I go outside my yard I'm breeding to a dog that lacks nothing and is my ideal apbt. if ur gonna half ass do it might as well stick to with what you have.
  7. bounty

    bounty Big Dog

    if you are going to breed her, do what D.P says, breed to a dog that lacks nothing. that way you will increase your chances of getting what you want.
  8. Thanks for all the replies. One of the 2 dogs I plan to use is a perfect apbt but he has not been bred at all. The dog he is triple bred on is again a perfect apbt too. However, whether they produce the mouth and ability I need is a different story! You see my bitch and the family shes from severly lacks it. Her dam was like this too but her sire had good mouth and ability but only 25% of the litter improved in mouth and ability. Which seems like my bitches dam and the family shes from dominated the breeding. This is why Im thinking to breed her to a dog with extreme mouth and ability, but then again I dont want to lose gameness .....
  9. Foundation

    Foundation Big Dog

    This and what butcherboy said make the most sense to me... generally people can find what their looking for in their own stock if they have the patience for it. Patience isn't waiting, its understanding when to cultivate a seed and knowing how to nuture a tree to life.... in time one has an orchard with the best fruit anyone could ask for.

    the old timers would just say "stick to what your feedin" which means the same thing. FYI: Outcrossing is dangerous if you don't know what your doing. It will tarnish your line and each dog will throw scatter shots with no consistency passing on bad traits that dominate good traits. Mentality wise you don't know what you have until the dogs are no younger than 2 and hell some don't turn on til they hit 3. ... .... remember that the organs are passed from the mother 5 of 6 times and bones from the father. Only 1 in 6 chance of bones being inherited from mother and organs from father, this is biological fact that few pay attention to. The most perfect and balanced dog requires ALOT of time, attention, on your part.. as well as wisdom and understanding.
  10. Foundation

    Foundation Big Dog

    this says it pretty much in crayon...
  11. flipboy

    flipboy Pup

    Nothing is written in stone but there are just simple logical reasons. There are facts about how we raise these dogs that is a BIG factor on how they will be as a performer. I believe the best dogs are all in the show rings, and these is where we usually found them. Others still believe on blood/family mixin. They breed the offspring of a very good dog down to it's grand grand sons back its family line so the blood will be tight - hoping it will produce a replica of the original dog or a better one neglecting the dogs itself but focusing on paper.

    Please don't look at it negatively. If she lacks some qualities that you are looking for, why are you breeding her then? My advise is do your homework and look for the best breeding available. Get at least 2-4 pups and raise them properly. Chances are, you'll get a better dog in the future. Gudluck Buddy.
  12. Dream Pits

    Dream Pits CH Dog

    I read a lot of crazy stuff on here and what I get from the majority of it is people don't understand genetics whatsoever and they believe everything someone tells them.
    As far as outcrossing tarnishing a line with bad traits lol sounds like the line has plenty of bad traits already and needed to be tarnished a long time ago. I doubt breeding a dog who lacks nothing to what he described is going to make the dogs worse. That's just my way of thinking though. Good luck with whatever you choose to do...
  13. outrightmike

    outrightmike CH Dog

    Ether it improves or it don't.If it don't,cull and your back were you started.Unless you got something really special imo you can better your stock with an out cross with no defects or tarnised traits
  14. Foundation

    Foundation Big Dog

    yup.... you two are right; I guess thats why and when you would look for an out and nothing but a dynamite dog should even be considered.. the dog and the pedigree behind the dog(just as you both mentioned) .. there are 256 ancestors in a 7 gen and utlitmatley 20,000 + ancestors that contribute DNA to one dog, cat, horse, and person for that matter.
  15. bounty

    bounty Big Dog

    breeding dogs isn't that complicated. if the parents don't have it, don't expect the offspring to have it. if one parent has it and the other doesn't then expect a lesser percentage to have that trait. If your bitch is out of a dog with good mouth then your chances of getting offspring are improved if you breed to a dog with good mouth.

    best answer is to just breed her and see what happens.
  16. rroscoe

    rroscoe Lightner Hemphill / Colby

    if you pull the heavy biter in I think about 35% of the pups can have all of the magic ..but some will have no improvement,and some will have no bite no wind ..I would not touch a dog with out it being game you can find a quality sire for 500-1000 and a pup ..and greatly increase your chances to about 70%. I would assume the dog you would breed to would not be free so lets say $300-800 average =$500 so for , $500 more you double your chances
  17. ABD456

    ABD456 Big Dog

    When breeding generally go for positive breeding, meaning breeding for what you want, the positive stuff as apposed to breeding away from fault. So that means in adding something the dog you use to add must not be lacking in what you already have and want but excels in where you need improve
  18. rroscoe

    rroscoe Lightner Hemphill / Colby

    In reading your question thru again I would advise you to Find a known winner of atleast 3 play dates ..one that went over 60 to be safe unless it finished be overwhelming performance ..But to be safe you want the sire to be 100% pay top dollar if needed most people who are Real ...wll usually take a fee plus 1st pick of the litter I have seen dogs like you have face Crafty seasoned dogs and get schreaded and 'totally stopped' ....they are like a fighting retard that is willing but cant hit a thing and runs into the other dogs ...This is probably going to take 3 breeding gens to fix so you know one ttime out you might get one or two grea/good then 2nd gen ...Say out of 9 pups you get three lucky maybe four/ 3rd gen probably 75% the other 25% will be good against most dogs and do good also ...you will have to pick the best
  19. TDK

    TDK CH Dog Staff Member

    I suggest you don't go looking for some LINEAGE as a whole, to bail you out from something you feel you lack. Your yard should start with dogs that already have most of what you'd like to have. The individual dogs, those around them, and those directly behind them (3 generations). 3 generations is not etched in stone. It's a guideline. Gameness being the one MUST, IMO.
    Lineage not withstanding, if the dogs you are starting with, or settle on to start your yard, have this criteria, breed them. If the qualities you want appear in the "Get", you've probably made the right choice in dogs, and from that point, continue with the same method and by "trimming your fat", try to maintain consistencies of the qualities you first created and have in this second generation.
    Remember that lineages as a whole don't create breedable dogs just by being said lineage. Breedable dogs in good percentages do create lineages.
    Now, if you truly do have gameness, as you say, then you have what I and many consider the ultimate trait to try and maintain. My advice is that if you really feel you need a better rounded yard of dogs, overall, don't sacrifice gameness for it
    If and when you reach a point that you must add, do so with dogs you KNOW and have seen. Do it with dogs which have shown a good degree of gameness much as your own. Do so hoping you strike a genetic compatibility or "nick", so you don't lose your consistency of getting ample game dogs. Let the cross create the hybrid vigor you need, but don't sacrifice gameness to achieve it. If it "nicks" your consistencies can remain to an ample degree, and your athleticism may increase enough for you to see at least some progress. Don't look for the atom bomb in a cross It COULD happen, but it's unrealistic to cross for that purpose.
    Don't run after whole lineages. The more peddled ones are in too many hands for you to ascertain consistencies. Judge individual dogs, the small group around and behind them, and their breeder's quality control. And make sure you are up close and personal enough with them to feel confident in your possibilities of breeding to them.
    Many will advise you as to gameness and all have their views. But be careful, as many who advise regarding gameness either have never seen a game dog, or their criteria for calling one game is very short of what someone else's may be.
    A dog has only one set of credentials, and that is, what it has done, and what he has done it against. Good luck, and remember that when it comes to breeding............. without gameness, all those other traits lose a lot of their meaning, if not all of it.

    ***The above is purely philosophical scenario, and not accounts of any actual dogs***
  20. Dream Pits

    Dream Pits CH Dog

    Very well put

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