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Red Dart Of Asquith

Discussion in 'SBT History' started by Vicki, Apr 9, 2010.

  1. Vicki

    Vicki Administrator Staff Member

    Red Dart Of Asquith
    Sire: Smith's Red Joe Dam: Beaumont Great Lady


    "Hopcroft's Bess"

    The "Red Dart Of Asquith" was a top producing bitch for the "Dublin Red" strain of Stafford,most notably she was the Dam to "Leo","Buzz","Josh" and "Ch.Red Joe".She is pictured above(left)with "Danns Rocky",the mating responsible for "Josh"." Red dart of Asquith" (Bess) was two-dogged in a test against English bull terriers,one of which took its death at 14 minutes.On another occasion she broke the jaw of a good bitch after 10 minutes. Bess also had an "off the chain" match against "Mitzi" (sister of "Derry Macash rascal"),both were picked-up game. "Bess" had a brother called "Rusty" who was a game Stafford and produced a son known as "Mad Max" that won 4 matches.Their father "Smiths Red Joe" was said to be very good and stopped many dogs in various tests,the longest going over the hour.

    Source: Turnstyle Staffords
  2. maxwell

    maxwell Pup

    Interesting how she was a top producing bitch for the "Dublin Red" strain.. when her herself was from pure KC stock a very good bitch tho.. but not red strain
  3. dannyboy

    dannyboy Big Dog

  4. sunbeam

    sunbeam CH Dog

    thats her pedigree but that is not a pic of her sire.i think its actually her son, the other red joe.
  5. reids skipper

    reids skipper Top Dog

    that is her pedigree but as sunbeam said the picture is red joe and not smiths red joe who was a different dog.
  6. molly

    molly Banned

    I've seen a good article which included Smith's Red Joe & some of the dogs of the breeding of Blue,Bess etc. It was said it was near certain that Red Joe's sire was papered up,as some of them working lads just borrowed papers to register litters. Red Joe's owner however,bred the dog & owned both parents. Joe was said to have never produced a son of equal quality,but several bitches turned out as near as & passed on them traits.
  7. 7 gens from Gentleman Jim too.
  8. matty

    matty Big Dog

    "as "Mad Max" that won 4 matches."

    Should the above be mad mick instead? Ch. Mad Mick
  9. molly

    molly Banned

    Yes,sure your correct Matty.
    The article got his breeding wrong though. He was picked up from the street,lookled at & ran on.
  10. jt ellison

    jt ellison Big Dog

    Once again a crock of shit written about a dog none of you saw , Bess was never matched her son Joe was only a one time winner and CH Mitsi was not a sister to Derrymacash Rascal but his daughter she was a litter sister to Haugheys Northern Rust , also Mad Mick was not a four time winner he won one match then quit cold to CH Brock who was six pounds lighter than Mick , as for the of the chain match with CH Mitsi thats a roll not a match
  11. This is not directed to anyone who has posted in this thread.

    So many years after it is hard to find the truth as we can only go by what has been told us.
    Apparently, there are always two sides of the coin and sometimes it can remind us that stories will change depending on who we hear it from or who considers their version of the truth to be a fact.

    The following is from a letter from Hopcroft...


    Dear "Name withheld"

    I am writing as promised enclosing photos of dogs & puppies, they are a good litter. The bitch pup is very sharp, good bone and plenty of wrinkles ( a good sign for plenty of growth). I have just used Rocky on a big red bitch I sold as a puppy. The bitch is from where Bill Hodgkinson lives. Rocky is the hardest biting dog I have ever had. He will work on all four legs, a very damaging dog.

    The bitch (the mother to the pups) is dead game and will take her death, she fought two English Bull's, one was a cross, I believe a miniature English Bull and a full size one she killed in 40 minutes and when we went to bury it the next day it was stiff and she still wanted to worry it.

    She is bred from a dog called Red Joe, who stopped an English dog in 40 minutes, he fought it with a 2 1/2" gash in his stomach. He once stopped two dogs in one match, they belonged to Thomas Bull.

    Rocky went 1 hr 15 min with Leo and neither dog was out of holds for 1hr, both dogs scratched at 1 hr and 1 hr 15 mins. Rocky damaged Leo very bad, he will take 6 months to heal.

    Well "Name withheld", you will not get a better bitch. I am letting you have it because as letting you have my best blood I know you will appreciate it.

    I will take the pup to the vets as you say to get the certificate for Leptospirosis 5 day before sending.

    Yours in sport

    (end quote)

    According to Russell, Mad Mick won several matches.
    He didn't disclose against which opponents, but the following in an extract of a letter he wrote, which may be relevant to what has been said in this thread.


    I have seen your bitch' Dam "Bess" rolled twice, once with a blue bitch that she destroyed very quickly breaking it's bottom jaw and the other time with "Mitzie", which if it had been a match I would have bet on "Bess", I consider a very game dog. "Rusty", "Bess" brother also was a very game dog and produced a good dog "Mad Mick", the winner of several matches. The Sire of "Bess" was a dog called "Red Joe". I talked to the man who owned this dog and he said it was a 38lb red dog similar to my Joe. This dog won every match it fought and infront of witnesses killed a badger.

    (end quote )
  12. jt ellison

    jt ellison Big Dog

    First Bess was matched into Mitsi now its a backyard roll between a 38-40 lb bitch Bess and Mitsi who was matched her last time at 32 lb asa they onnly went ten mins obviously the bigger bitch would be on top . The fact Tony Hopcroft felt that a roll with two pet English Bulls one a minature was a gametest ought to tell you his understanding of dogs . The Rocky dog was a 47 lb dog and a awsome biter the Leo dog was a 42 lb dog that was matched at 60lb into Zack which tells you how much his owner knew about dogs , MR Bulldog had a bet the match wouldnt last 30 mins as Leo was over a stone above his pit weight , now were told the same dog fought over a hour with a dog much heavier , ton go over the hour dogs need to be fit neither knew how to condition a dog .As for Rusty he was never matched but rolled of the couch with staffords that were PETS owned by people that were not working dog owners just the same as the person that rolled his English Bulls , theMad Mick dog won one match against Taffys Rocky a staff when GG outhandled Taffy the Mad Mick dog then lost when he quit cold to CH Brock a 30lb stafford from Cuileopg lines the Mick dog was 38lb i think Brocks owner who was new to the game had his dog at 32 lb but he was a 30lb dog . The Smiths Red Joe was a pet it may have been rolled with other pets but these people were NOT working dog owners and did not have a clue about matching dogs , the level of understanding can be seen in that they supposedly Matched Red Joe with a two inch gash in his stomach into a pet English Bull , as for Tony Hopcrofts understanding he quotes that Bess is dead game when shes still alive because sho beat up two pet English bulls , the same with the match were Red Joe stopped two dogs in one match thats a crock of bullshit , it should say he was rolled with two dogs that were not fighting dogs but someones pets and they wouldnt fight thats not a match by any standards . I remember GG telling me many years ago that Bess was a rough bitch but never tested she did produce some good dogs that are behind some of the dogs i owned and Russells Joe was a good dog though not a Champion . Tony Hopcroft bred a number of good litters out of the Bess bitch one by Red Warrior the other by Rocky who had quit previously to being bred boith litters produced good dogs the first litter produced Russels Joe a great looking game dog and Leo a dog that was ruined by a foolish owner but still a great looking game dog , the other litter produced Joss a very hard biting game dog and Buzz who one day was deep game the next day hed quit , there was also a brother called Cody that was never matched . The Bess bitch dont need any bullshit she earned her place in gamedog history in producing dogs like Joe , Joss and Leo its easy to see how stories get passed down through the years and the truth is lost on those in the game today
  13. As I said, we can only go by what has been told us and that stories will change depending on who we hear it from or who considers their version of the truth to be a fact.
  14. jt ellison

    jt ellison Big Dog

    The letter itself that you posted from Hopcroft shows anyone who reads it his understanding of gamedogs , you dont need to be Earl Tudor to realise he wasnt a working dogman but a dog owner that was lucky to get a good bitch and bred her to Red Warrior a game dogand Rocky a cur and produced some good dogs . Those people with the English Bulls do you honestly think they were working dog people and that those farcial event were matches , they were the dealiongs of a bunch of messers whose behaviour is the type of thing that got the dogs banned , like i say Bess was a quality bitch and dont need a load of codswallop to ensure her place in the history of the breed .
  15. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    i am from the states and never had any interest in staffs..but reading these post and the article even though i wasnt there I would have to agree with JT ..half minature and half whatever.thats no test .
  16. No Trevor, I do not believe for a second that the owner of the English Bull's were working dog people. I also do not believe for a second that the Joe dog stopped two dogs in one match either.

    The written "working history" of this breed has always been based on what someone told someone regardless of if it was true or not.

    Books that some people takes as the bible was filled with wrong pedigrees and half truths, I'm sure you can remember "The other side of the coin" or "Staffordshire Bull Terriers English and Irish" and how all of a sudden people believed the authors were some scholar of the breed.

    Most of what was in those books are now posted on the internet as the "truth" and just about every website owned by fanciers of the working stafford has put bits and parts from those books to show how their pet or weightpulling dogs can show a lineage back to these dogs of yesteryears.

    If you break down the original post, the details of these events were missing until I posted what I posted.

    When it was presented as a part of history the author added their own spin to it and that's how the history about the breed gets written. People will read it and they themselves will present it as facts to whomever they relay the story to.

    Please don't take this as me harbouring any ill feelings towards yourself, but unfortunately, you can waste the remaining years of your life trying to correct what has been written on this forum in regards to these dogs. but it is of no use as this is only one of many many forums on the internet where people discusses these dogs and people wants to believe the stories especially if it is a dog or a bitch that they can show is in the pedigree of their own dog.
  17. jt ellison

    jt ellison Big Dog

    Geezer i agree with what you say as my own dogs were featured in a book some years ago by a FOOL called Harrison , in this book he stated id culled dogs that were confiscated in a raid , id put dogs down for quitting when they had not and put the wrong pedigrees on most of my dogs , he did not consult me about my dogs and wrote a crock of bullshit . Howevor i know only to well the misinformation put out into the game but i wont just sit back and listen to nonsense if somethings not true then i shall say so , im not asking anyone to believe what i say thats there choice , but what i talk about i saw with my eyes , its not gossip or stories passed down from website wannabe dogmen , as for wasting the remaining years of my life telling the truth what should i do join the sheep and get led along blindly in noddy land . I learned many years ago that truth is what matters in dogs be they hunting coursing or fighting dogs and i know how people have taken what ive written over the years then reworded it to make it look like they were something they were not but hey Geezer thats life. Iagree with what you say about how history gets written but the history of the dogs i own was written by myself i got dogs that had genuine pedigrees that were varified by genuine dogmen whos word was solid gold they were not dealers but men whos records were written in ink in the history of Irish gamedog history , i then bred these dogs raised and schooled and yes culled quite a few , i did not stud out my dogs or sell a single pup , this way any faults in the dogs were my doing , now i can go and look and think every single dog in these pedigrees going back twenty five years was owned by myself or close friends and before that by dogmen whose word is solid . This dont mean they are better than anyone elses it does mean howevor that they are gamebred have genuine pedigrees and are purebred Staffords and that today is very rare indeed , anyway Geezer keep posting as i find your post intresting and a breathe of fresh air , keep scratchin
  18. thefonz

    thefonz Pup

    Great read!
  19. Mad mick was picked up on the street by t.w g.g went to buy buzz seen mick so got them to throw mick in
    G.g preferred mick sold buzz and campaigned mick he won 3 outings against poor dogs first one with a bit gameness stopped him.
  20. T.w rocky was matched into zak he spewed it and got a lad called ian to use Leo.he was Joe's bigger brother 46 lbs fit went into zak totally overweight and unfit a natural 10 lbs bigger dog. 10 mins Leo was bossing it then zak got a hold and the rest is history 15 mins in all. It was a terrible shame that this ever took place.
    Dusty Road likes this.

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