Should APBT's be used in protection/guard training!

No, There is plenty of breeds designed and bred for this purpose. I had a desire to have a yard/ manstopping dog and did not ever consider using an APBT, I got a German Shepard. I think even if non game and trained a APBT would never have got along in the yard like my dog now does, he looks different than the others and they never confronted anything like him, so its nature to leave him alone now, their use to him, having one APBT running loose would cause problems around the bulldogs and especially if it ever had to REALLY do its job and stop a man... then when the Authorities came and saw the other APBTs...there my hopes of explaining how it was a trained professional guard dog go, since its a shepard a line can be drawn. It is just stupid to use an APBT for something they were never bred for.

 

have to agree with rocksteady. detection dog..yes. but not an attack dog. they(the breed) catch enough hell.

 

I agree with both of you, no pit bull should do attack work but that doesn't mean they cant do schutzhund - Schutzhund and personal protection are two different things and a correct schutzhund dog is not showing aggression - GSD or pit bull.

 

"Schutzhund and personal protection are two different things..."

Would you care to explain how they are different? I mean, come on, the word schutzhund, itself, means protection dog.

 

Actually most GSDs, Belgians and similar breeds are trained in defense. A person who's experienced with bulldogs would never dream of trying that, bulldogs are generally trained in prey. While GSDs and such are out there to get the bad man, bulldogs are out there to play a game of tug o war. I have a friend who has a French Ringsport trained APBT who will sit in the decoys lap(full body suit on) and lick his face, this little bulldog changed the decoys mind about our breed. BUT, most SchH and/or Ringsport trainers are NOT experienced with bulldogs, they will try and train them like your run of the mill GSD and this can and will shut a good bulldog down.

That being said I don't agree with training bulldogs in defense, but if the dog is just out there to play with that sleeve/suit then I don't see a problem with it. Those dogs are some of the most highly trained dogs I know because Ringsport and SchH require a passing score in every venue of the sport to qualify. They can do great in protection, but if they fail obedience they're disqualified.

 

Wow! You're certainly entitled to your opinion, tommyt, but let me just say that it is no secret that I have a game-to-the-hilt APBT that is certified Class II in protection work. Seems there are a lot of people who are clueless as to how incredibly stable these dogs really are, if trained properly. Believe me, it isn't the professionally trained schutzhund dogs that are out there attacking people. Show me one such case, and I'll eat my words. By professionally trained, I'm not referring to backyard training done by obvious morons such as Showstopper. Frankly, I'm getting sick of arguing my point. Go hang out with some schutzhund dogs for awhile, then come back and tell everyone how vicious and unstable they are. I'm neither condoning such sports, nor condemning them; I'm only trying to shed some light on all this misunderstanding, since few here seem to have any personal experience whatsoever in the matter.
Another note: when these dogs are "tugging" on the sleeve, lol, there is no way one can consider it as "playing." They are dead-serious, focused, and determined. Sometimes they're being hit hard with dowel rods or bamboo sticks in an effort to make them release the sleeve. Depending on what the decoy is doing at the time, if the sleeve happens to come off, the dog isn't just going to go running off with it; the decoy is probably going to be in trouble. That being said, once you give the "out!" command and allow the dog a little time to assess the situation. The decoy could go up and give the dog a big fat kiss on the mouth if he wanted to.
Proper protection training is far removed from teaching a dog to hate or fear or distrust humans; it's quite the opposite really. These dogs are taught well to carefully and accurately judge any given situation. The idea is controlled protection, not mindless aggression.

 

I dont agree that pure defense is the way to go with any breed, obviously most Mals & GSDs are going to be able to be able to utilize the defense drive - thats what they were bred for, but it is never supposed to be purely defense, IMO. I think a good MAL/GSD should have a balence between the two (prey / defense - even using primarily defense is o.k for a non-bulldog). I do agree with you that it is a whole different ball game training a GSD or mal to do bitework, and that a bulldog should not be trained in defense AT ALL . To a correct bulldog the bitework should always be a game, thats why it is possible for some bulldogs out there to be doing schutzhund and visiting nursing homes to do therapy work - I know of a couple that do both. I think a correct bulldog is the most versatile breed out there and can truly "do it all".

 

I do not think controlled aggression is acceptable for a bulldog. A correct bulldog can still be focused and driven without being aggressive. My dog loves getting hit while hes biting (even while playing tug or while on his spring pole), he gets much more intense and and you can almost see him kick his determination up a notch - no aggression involved. I guess it depends on what your definition of "playing" is; lol my dog thinks everything in life is a big game - he is still amazingly focused, determined, and driven but not even slightly aggressive. You see him chasing his ball like his life depened on it but he is not showing aggression, just prey drive.

 

NO, no, no. I trained one of my Rotts for schutzhund and I will never do it again. She never had a problem but after the training was all done I realized I had a concealed carry dog. I don't need that. I love my dogs and cats for companionship etc.

Hey what the heck is going on in Denver??? How is the Game Dog Ban going? Is it just APBT or all of the breeds? I live in a rural area and so far no one has proposed this type of thing where I live although about 5 hours away there is a city that passed a law that says IF YOU FEEL THREATENED BY A DOG THEN THE DOG IS DANGEROUS.
That is why I live 5 hours away.

 

not sure if anyones seen this already, someone had posted on another board....

http://www3.strangeland.com/gallery/SL_00003714.wmv

 

Id have killed the damn manbiter too, but id have done it long before the cops came, Im sure someone in another apartment had a knife or something! Guns!!! Kills dogs dead.

 

For me its a toss up. I would like to see the dogs doing more public work but at the same time understand the concerns that myself and others here have. It is unfortunate that with a dog with such ability that we sometimes must think of the preseptions others will have. As an owner and rescuer of the breed I see on a regular basis the unfounded fear so many have. I myself work my little red girl with the Delta Society as a therapy dog. We currently are training 5 bullies for agility and obediance. If given a choice, and I am I prefer to stay away from the agressive sports in leu of the cute ones. If we with time are able to get past the hype then the would be great at anything they are given a chance to do.

 

schutzhund is an OBEDIENCE sport, but teaching a pitbull to bite people, even if you can call them off is an accident waiting to happen. too many people would jump on an oppurtunity to put your "aggressive" dog down.

 

http://www.k-9prosport.com/RES040905.htm

 

http://www.k-9prosport.com/2004%20Final%20Standings.htm

 

I wanted to bring up this outstanding response by Miakoda on this topic, from May:

"... my question is this? Out of how many dogs in a training class did that pit bull beat out to become top dog to do bite work? How many months, sometimes a year, of obedience training did that dog do BEFORE it even saw a sleeve? Hmmm? It seems someone had a dog, wanted that dog to do bite work, & so did it. This is STREET TRAINING! When experienced people & trainers look at dogs to do bitework, they test many many dogs to find the very few who are actually mentally stable & physically capable. And experienced Schutzhund trainer doesn't just see a pretty dog he likes or owns & decides that dog is gonna get to chase someone, knock him done, & bite the hell out of 'em. But you see? The months of training, the strict requirements, & the PROFESSIONAL training are all left out.

Am I against any apbt ever doing Schutzhund? Not really. But am I against just any person taking one of their dogs & deciding what they're gonna do w/out the TRUE testing it requires all b/c some other dog trainer (who's probably NOT an experienced Schutzhund trainer) owns a sleeve & can rile a dog up enough to get him to bite. The bite work & sleeve work is a reward for the most dedicated, obedient, & trained dogs. These dogs are tested over & over again before they even see a sleeve. Unfortunately, any Joe Blow can go buy a sleeve & get a dog to bite on it. That's not too hard. But making sure & KNOWING that you have the RIGHT dog to do so is not something very many people know how to do.

So unless someone actually has their dog enrolled in Schutzhund training classes done by a qualified professional, I don't want to see it. It's irresponsible and it's the easy way out that will one day result in a major catastrophy in which every apbt owner will feel."

Excellent post, and echoes my thoughts exactly.

 

I agree with the above post. It is not the professional that is the problem it is the wanna be who will become the problem for us all.

 

no i wouldnt do it

 

I'm moving two dogs this weekend just because they have been human aggressive. A dog as powerful as these should never be taught to be human aggressive.

 

no joke. i got a friend that had two females. they locked eyes and she swatted at the larger dog and the smaller thought the other had moved and she got bit twice on the forearm. she had 6-8 good 1/2" holes in her arm. they weren't really full fites, just a warning nip, and her sh*t was messed up for weeks