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Stafford and Pitbull

Discussion in 'Staffordshire Bull Terriers' started by matty, Mar 6, 2010.

  1. staffords are defonatly diffrent now but thank feck thares some people sorting them.
  2. peppapig

    peppapig Banned

    too true chopper....;)
  3. mfern004

    mfern004 Big Dog

    Wow this thread has gone to shit in the last months since I looked at it! Haha.

    Staff, Staffy, Stafford, Irish Staff, English staff, Amstaff, Staffordshire Bull Terrier... There seems to be a little confusion over what we're even talking about.

    I hope this clears it up for anyone who's lost in the discussion like Corsoqueen and Burger: When the breed we now know as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier came to be, dogs weren't even known by their breed! There were TYPES of dog. Bulldogs, Longdogs (sighthounds), Terriers, Hounds, etc. No one had a "Jack Russel" or "Border Terrier" or whatever. People didn't really start separating and classifying them into specific breeds with proper breed standards till dog shows came about in the late 1800's. The "Staffordshire Bull Terrier" came up in England and Ireland before the whole proper naming of separate breeds started, so it was called several things: Bull and Terrier, Pit Terrier, Bull Terrier, Pit Bulldog, etc. These were small-medium sized dogs used in badgerbaiting and dogfighting and they were being bred specifically for that. The breed wasn't officially given the name Staffordshire Bull Terrier until it was recognized by the KC. But this type of dog had been in use for quite awhile already. Because most Staffordshire Bull Terriers are no longer bred for working purposes and people are used to seeing the stubby show dogs, most people can't conceive the thought that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier was the ORIGINAL "pit dog." From the working dogs of this breed is where the APBT came.

    European immigrants brought these pit dog bull and terrier crosses to the United States, and Americans also imported them. They didn't call them "Staffordshire Bull Terriers" because that type of dog hadn't been recognized by the KC yet. But the "pit dogs" imported to the US were from the same stock they had in Britain/Ireland which came to have the official name Staffordshire Bull Terrier. By the time the SBT had been named, the dogs in the US had been bred separately long enough for the Americans to consider them their own, what eventually came to be known as the APBT. There is speculation as to whether or not any other breeds were infused into the imported dogs to develop the APBT, but I believe the dogs were kept pure and the differences developed as a result of 2 separate and closed genepools where the dogs were being tightly bred and selected for slightly different venues.

    The American Staffordshire Terrier, or Amstaff (not to be confused with the original pit dog I described above) is an offshoot of the APBT breed, now considered mostly just a show dog as they have not been game tested or used in pit contests for over 70 years. They are bred for conformation to the AKC standard, and are basically like any other AKC dog. As a breed they will not excel compared to their APBT counterparts who have been selected for the specific task.

    Irish Staffs are not a breed. Some people started calling the APBT an Irish Staff after the APBT was banned in the UK. Some people call their old type Staffords "Irish Staffords" to differentiate between the working type dog and the short stubby show dog. Others use Irish Stafford to describe dog like Ch Stormer who was SBT/EBT. The proper Stafford is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier (Stafford, Staffy, Staffbull, etc for short). All the other names are informal/peddler names.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 3, 2010
  4. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    mfern004,........wow....what an intelligent post.......truth at last....is this possible on gamedog. com???
    top man ...you speak the truth .....:D
  5. beanieman

    beanieman Banned

    This was a Dutch artikel i did my best to translate it

    The Great crossing

    Some breeders say that now that the Stafford evolves and as it fights past no longer exists, the dog no longer need to be bred to the old standard.
    The results is known, dogs of 39/40 cm high and a weight of about 55 lbs..I recently saw a picture of a Bulldog show in 1912, the bulldogs were more atlethic than many staffords in a show ring today.The big question is how did those dogs do for the period of recognition, Gentleman Jim, etc.There are not many photo's and documents about this.On the basis of the emergence of the great crossing, there can be a reasonable sketch of the period 1860-1900.During this period a lot of emigrants from England, Ireland + Scotland came to America.Initially, the settlers took their animals wich could be usefull in their new country.They also tooked there dogs and it was obvious that the Molosoid fighting dogs (Bull & Terriërs) took their place between them.In a later period it was the already established British Irish settlers who asked for there favorite family dogs (there was already a tight family breeding for gameness) from europe.The blood sports were quickly established in America but with the exception of the dog fights that never reached great popularity.It was already mentioned in 1776 but remained a long unregulated and poorly organized eventInitially it were the more upper class society that imported pedigree dogs as well as the fighting dog, around the great crossing (1860-1900), we see that an increasing flow of emigrants from british and irish took with them their fighting dogs.The highlight of those imports was probaly in the period 1865-1880.Fighting dogs came to America from all parts of the British islands from the pits of London, Manchester, Staffordshire + Scotland ans Ireland ( Waterford, Kilkenny, Cork ,etc).All these imported dogs descended from the Bull & Terriër later to be named Staffordshire Bull Terriër.Alltough not uniform in appearance and weight (it's not reguired of a working dog), they were of 1 type.The imported dogs and their offspring who has been the biggest influence, Cockney Charlie Loyd's dogs, Pilot, Paddy, Turk, Toby and Rafferty, Larry Krieger's Crib, John Mc Donalds Crib (the gashouse dog).Mc Donald worked at a gas company and kept his dogs at the premises thus the nickname.Mc Gough's Bob the Fool, Connor's Bismarck Rock + Rye.All were English and Irish bred dogs with established reputation in the pit.From pictures of dog shows in that period we see thet they do not differ so much from dogs in England and Ireland until 1940.Altough often little was known about the origins of those imported dogs it seems obvious that a fair number of them came from long well-bred family's.That in my view also acounts for the quality an fact that so many big dogs in this period (Armimage S below 30kg) were bred from smaller ancesters.Even now you see that the phenomenom of cross-breeding heterosis (hybrid power) for larger dogs can provide in the first generation.By breeding by these individuals you can see the size to decline gradually.From 1880 we see the dog fights to spread to the better neigborghoods of the cities.In the suburbs of New York, Queens, New Jersey, Coney Island and others the sport was even protected and favored by mayors and other prominend citizens.Thus, to the dismay of many respectable victorians (puritans) a dogfight was one of the main events in the rest of the participants at the democratic convention in 1881 attented by some 300 fighting dogs.This match was reported by the New York sun (newspaper) and was between the Champions, Chippy and Toss from New York to $1000 a side (Toss won in 1hr and 10 min).Many of the Bull & Terriërs breeders from this period were Irish.Not suprising because America (new world) after the devistating famine in Ireland (1846-1847) in wich 1 million people were killed, was the refuge of more then 1,5 million Irish, completely destitute and packed in to cargo holds of ships crossed the ocean. The immegrants had a hard life of poverty and there dogs often their only asset.A lively trade of fighting dogs from Ireland to America has begon.There is always a lot written about the infamous "Irish Strains" but mostly by American Irish.In the Irish literature there is not much to be found.Most of the dogs came from England, although quite a lot of these dogs were held by Irish living there.To distinquish between English and Irish dogs is still very difficult because Ireland since the 12th century and partly since the 17th century was completly under British rule (until 1922 when the irish free state was founded).These dogs have been the basis for the emergence of two American cousins of the SBT.The surviving dogs were the basis of the SBT, where the race for recognition was made by the group around Joe Mallen.Source: The Stafford nr 1, 1996
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 3, 2010
  6. noblebostons

    noblebostons Big Dog

    The only thing these two have in common is a black coat, and a blue collar. Their bone structure is completely different.
  7. gog123

    gog123 Top Dog

    and thats no working staffy :D
  8. staffs will start it but dont count on them being there at the end.

    dogmen arent all breeders. some have 2 cos all thatz about is sh*t.

    get 1 that can take his schooling and learn from it. seen 2 many noisy mutts cur.

    never 4get an A-frame aint the []................!!!
  9. staffs will start it but dont count on them being there at the end.

    dogmen arent all breeders. some have 2 cos all thatz about is sh*t.

    get 1 that can take his schooling and learn from it. seen 2 many noisy mutts cur.

    never 4get an A-frame aint the []................!!!
  10. chinaman nailed his opponent in the gut.......what did that staff do?

    a greyhound will be in great shape but put it in the [] & your losing money!
  11. damon

    damon Banned

    Other breeds must have been added to the imported dogs from England and ireland because they have increased in size on the whole
  12. damon

    damon Banned

    The Americans proberbly didn't improve the gameness over the dogs from over here, but they increased the size and maybe the ability. Just an opinion
  13. j1985

    j1985 Big Dog

    Also they had a lot more folk breeding and alot more room to do it!!

    You can selectively breed staffords and increase size the same way you can in any other breed, so saying they must have added other breeds may not be true.
  14. damon

    damon Banned

    That is true, but how much can you develope size by selective breeding?
  15. damon

    damon Banned

    Did it just happen accidently the increase in size? Because gameness and ability is the priority in breeding pitdogs. And surely if a type of dog was lacking in areas people would start looking to other breeds to try and make an improvement which could have added to the size
  16. j1985

    j1985 Big Dog

    I know of staffords at 55 lb plus that have been selectively bred to be as they used to be, It's only since the showing of dogs has the stafford (the original pit bull and terrier) been bred to be smaller. Look at early Colby dogs, they were pretty big right!!

    So IMO the bull terriers leaving Europe for America where as big as modern day pitbulls.
  17. beanieman

    beanieman Banned

    i am sorry but i thought the complaind was infact that show people changed the size down of the sbt's and the weight a bit up ?
    That's why you have to eye hop belly rockets that's been going on for years.
    Even in the old times a 55 lbs sbt would have been a big boy.
    In the time they went to the states there was no breed standard they were known as bull & Terriërs so you had your bulldogs and the terriër types.
    It stil depends on selective breeding to take it to any size.
    Any working man didn't care what name they had as long as it works.
    And everybody has his own preferences about weight.
  18. j1985

    j1985 Big Dog

    Isn't that what I said ? :D

    The eyes came from adding pug blood to make them smaller.
  19. crazy horse

    crazy horse Big Dog

    pretty much but you both hit the nail on the head:cool:
  20. damon

    damon Banned

    It is true though that generally the smaller bulldogs are gamer than the bulldogs, maybe this is because they are closer to the original pure stock?

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