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Stafford ramblings

Discussion in 'Staffordshire Bull Terriers' started by springview, Mar 22, 2012.

  1. Bully_UK

    Bully_UK Big Dog

    If you read further down i did acknowledge his post and really enjoying reading it.
    Im a big enough to say sorry but when you start a topic of like he did it can be miss read and taken wrong way.
    Great reading,.x

    Tracie x
     
  2. mixed-grill

    mixed-grill Big Dog

    So what is your opinon on the dogs Mr Payne produced?...if you dont mind me asking
     
  3. mixed-grill

    mixed-grill Big Dog

    Didnt know that...Cheers Ricky
     
  4. maxwell

    maxwell Pup

    This is also the ped i have on my dogs.............Snatcher was put to Cass a bitch of Oscar breeding producing a bitch that lost to beanie 3
     
  5. Idont have a opinion on the dogs Payne bred the fact he used Bludgeons Blockbusters pedigree on Jack a English Bull cross then sold the pups as pure staffords with KC papers and that the Blockbuster dog was a rank cur but was used for stud tells you that he was simply a dog dealer and a peddlar and now hundreds of dogs have false cur bred pedigrees and are behind many of todays dogs .
     
  6. reids skipper

    reids skipper CH Dog

    if he used another dog to get kc papers for pups he would not have been the first and he would not have been the last . i have never done this myself and to be honest i think like you it is wrong to lie to people on the breeding of dogs ...i bought the mother to tyra and jim etc years ago and she came with a kc pedigree but i knew bohemigsboy aka barney was a top dog so i wasn't that bothered about the papers . N.M of yankeestaff fame done it all the time using red strain dogs like joe etc but registering them as kc dogs ...many of them have done it purely to make more money but some done it when using other blood when the dda was in place .
     
  7. Finito

    Finito Big Dog

    Springview,did you ever sell surplus pups with false papers & have you ever knowingly put false papers to a dog that you have owned ?
     
  8. mixed-grill

    mixed-grill Big Dog

    I dont think it was as straight forward as that...if he was peddling/breeding just for money he would of made a lot more cash selling the dogs under their true working pedigrees...rather than hiding them behind KC papers...with the climate the way it was around the dogs with the dda in the 90's it looked as if other types would end up on the list...you can understand why some would do this...i just wondered if you had an opinion on the dogs themselves ,like mad molly,red gwen,Jake ect....but thanks for the reply
     
  9. The dogs were sold long before the DDA act and dogs from the same litter were sold with true pedigrees others had KC pedigrees put on them to quote a well known dogman who was involved with Payne in these dealings when i asked him how a litter was bred he replied how would you like them to be bred . The Mad Molly bitch i saw quit cold in her match with bitch out of Bedells Bullet and Pistol Peg , dogs with working blood only sell if they are game bred if they are not gamebred then they perhaps wouldnt sell hence the false pedigrees as to your question Finito about me selling pups with false papers tell me what pups i sold or perhaps you bought a pup from me that had false papers lots of people claim to have had pups from my dogs or used my dogs for stud as can be seen in the pedigrees going around howevor every mating i ever made was documented the pups were not sold to the public nor were any of my dogs advertised at public stud
     
  10. Finito

    Finito Big Dog

    I wasn't implying anything SV.
    Just asking you a question.
    Regarding you mentioning & correcting false breedings which you know of,hey let's not stop there.
    Two you may help me on are Brown's Rocky & CH Oscar.
     
  11. Aarsbaard

    Aarsbaard Pup

    SV, could you please confirm that your Jim dog sired a litter from Red Gwen?
     
  12. mixed-grill

    mixed-grill Big Dog

    Thanks for the replies Springview...Mad Molly was dam to Johnson...Johnson was sire to Sylus...how did you rate the Sylus dog?...was he matched?
     
  13. The mating between Jim and RedGwen could have been made by Heys of Portsmouth when they had Jim down there i myself wouldnt have covered the bitch these same people lost a match with Jim against the CH Sam dog when Jim was counted out chasing Sam around the pit the owner of Sam released his dog when it was Jims turn to scratch thus accepting Jim had scratched but these dumbos counted the dog out . i never saw Sylus but saw Johnson he was a big brindle dog , he quit cold to the Dylan dog owned by a friend of mine . The Rocky dog quit cold i wasnt there but was told by others that were , i feel he produced better than he was and could have passed this on in his offspring as Buzz quit cold twice then won two game matches . The CH Oscar dog i knew well i lost two with him and won two with him , he was only a 27 lb dog but was matched at 30 lb he was a very game little dog who won over his littermate Tom in a hard match then lost to CH Brock in a long one with No Kidding stating in the Pitbull news that Oscar was CH Brocks toughest match the Oscar dog ended up living in comfort to old age he was also a great badger dog
     
  14. sunbeam

    sunbeam CH Dog

    it seems getting real game bred staffords is like finding rocking horse shit, many of the "foundation dogs" appear to have quit cold, its no wonder they are in a bad way today with only a scant few being the genuine article.this has made for some interesting reading.
     
  15. OnTheRocks

    OnTheRocks Moderator

    Its pretty easy really. You can only work with what you got these days! You can not bother whats 5-6 generations behind you, and it doesent really matter! You need to breed the best you got, and you need to make sure they have a typical Staff phenotype! Easy as pie.

    Springview ramble on here about dogs not being pure etc. Over the years I have had the privilage to talk to a few Irish dogmen, who where there in the 1970´s. They tell me exactly same type of stories about the DRS dogs! what they say would have a direct impact on even Springviews dogs- so no one is "safe" if we shall listen to all these claims and rumours.

    Now- as I mentioned. There is a great difference between a APBT and a Staff! I know because I have been around both breeds for many years. You could not fool me that a Staff were an APBT or vise versa! So you need to breed typical Staffs out of dogs that are typical Staffs themselves, and you need to breed for gameness. This is simple enough, but people still dont seem to be able to do it!

    I am personally pretty impressed with the quality of the Staffs if you follow this simple routine. But then again, if you base your breeding program on dogs that has been dead for decades- well then the result will be there after. People need to stop breeding the remains of the past, they need to breed the first of the future!
     
  16. The pedigrees to the dogs i owned in the past were correct i spent many years tracing the dogs breeding through talking with those that owned and worked these dogs , the pedigrees on my dogs were nothing like those behind todays dogs , i spoke with at great length for over twenty years Seamus Mc Nutt who owned Battling Duchesss and he in turn introduced me to the owner of the Wolf Island dogs and othersd who sold dogs to Dann i also got the correct breeding to these dogs . The dogs i bred from these dogs were bred on my yard with no outside blood added in over twenty years the dogs today are better than they were twenty years ago these dogs havent one drop of English Bull/Pitbull/Wheaten or Mastiff blood unlike the majority of the so called Irish staffords or Blue staffs we see today . In the early eighties a large number of game bitches and dogs were imported by dealers to England these people did not match dogs but bred as many litters as they could putting all kinds of pedigrees to the pups , i saw this with my own eyes this isnt rumours or heresay but facts all these dealers made great claims about theser dogs then six months later were feeding something else . I know of twop dealers from the North Wales Merseyside area that bred many litters of Blue pups putting all kinds of pedigrees on them , i saw a number of well known dogs quit cold that were used for stud producing many litters all behind many of todays Blue so called Staffords . As for breeding gamebred dogs you need to start with gamebred dogs once you breed to a dog that isnt game the reulting offspring are no longer gamebred as for basing a breeding programe on dogs that have been dead for decades then i feel thats the only way to breed dogs as long as you breed from the gamest from those dogs keep control of the dogs and have a understanding of breeding thats how its done and nobody will tell me otherwise , unless your able to continue to produce quality dogs why breed them as for the difference in the APBT or SBT if they are deadgame whats the difference a dog that is willing to die proving its gameness and breeding dont know if its a Pitbull or Staff , i dont deal in rumours but believe what my own eyes saw and trust the words opf certaion dogmen . As for it not mattering whats in a pedigree just were are you coming from the reason for pedigrees is to ensure the dogs are bred as shown and are not falsely papered or bred of curs or crossbreeds and if you cant trust the pedigrees you have no chance of success . The dogs i owned came from Willie Delaney and Bobby Watts through Seamus Mcnutt and Pinky then via Dann of Plymouth , i bypassed Dann went to those he got them from and spoke at great length for thirty years with these people there word is impeccable the dogs i kept were bred from these dogs no outcrosses or paper hanging tested and yes kept pure there may have been better staffords but i never saw them , i saw many great staffords and croosbreeds during this time but sadly they were not the result of any planned breeding programmes last but not least how do you breed for gameness from dogs that are not game or gamebred that ones got me baffled , incidently some of the best staffords i saw were bred out of KC showdogs with no working blood but as you say that could be down to the fact they were bred from typical staffs , it sure puzzled me
     
  17. Finito

    Finito Big Dog

    Forget about my question. Seems you have pretty much answered most by your other posts.
    This may be me being less educated,or perhaps not understanding your words. Hey,i may even be right in my comprehension !!
    From what i can gather,in your opinion your dogs are/were the only pure staffords around. All other staffords being not pure & definately not gamebred. I don't have a problem in your opinion & i am all ears,as i'll respect whatever you want to share with us regarding that knowledge you obviously have.
    However,you mention the men above as being honest as the day is long (i don't dispute that) & you respect & would not question them pedigrees you got along with them dogs of 30 or so yr ago. You also mentioned that you cut the middle man out later on & went direct to the sources. Tell me,did that middle man peddle pups & hang pedigrees in a similar way as you mention the blue's were peddled ?
     
  18. OnTheRocks

    OnTheRocks Moderator

    Perhaps I was a bit unclear, feels like it.

    I personally got my Staffs from some of the best dogmen out there involved in the Staffs, people who proven their dogs worth. People I could trust when they told the way the dogs were bred. They in their turn got dogs from people that I believe are good to their words. But since we only bred our dogs for a bit more than ten years, not 20 years as yourself. There are a few question marks way back. But I dont bother about them.

    We only breed what we see. Our dogs come from good stock, better than most out there. But still we dont believe that the blood itself will be some sort of secret recipie. It is down to us to select the best to keep improving the dogs.

    What I mean simply is, I dont bother if there was a BT infusion in the 1960´s. There are probably some Bulldog blood way back, I dont care either. Most certainly not any Weathon blood tough, cause that would bother me slightly. The dogs we feed are the genuine European gamedogs! They have been gamebred for atleast 50 years, probably more. The phenotype is different than the APBT. There are way more European blood in the american dogs, than american blood the European dogs! The yanks dont seem to bother about that! For me the European legacy is worth to keep alive! Most my friends tell me I am stupid to even bother with these Staffs, I am known to have had a few descent APBTs over the years. But for me there is more to it than just having the best dogs out there. It is called pride.

    The problem today is lack of pride! Most people have none. No matter if they breed Staffs or US dogs, in a few generations their stock will be shyte. With more pride there would be better dogs around.

    So what I am saying to anyone that cares to listen is pretty simple. Try to find the best dogs you can and do the best with the hand you have been dealt. Be prepared to put some work into it, and you will be amazed of the result.
     
  19. I showed my first stafford in July 1978 the match took place in Battersea SW London in a snooker hall of Wandsworth Rd , my dog was 38 lb his opponent 50 lb my dog was bottom dog for 15 mins then the other dog blew up and quit cold , at this time i was not clued up about conditioning but began to read all the books and experiment with the two dogs i owned , my method of conditioning was using a bike and walking and my dogs were doing twenty miles each day and were constantly fit . I used to travel all over England visiting staff people listening to there claims and my dogs saw plenty of work , these people used to try and tell me my dogs were thin needed more muscle yet every time i rolled them they would get thrown about foe ten mins then old fat Rocky or Butch would blow up and quit . I soon realised these dogmen had little of no understanding 0f dogs and then i was introduced to Bill Hodgkinson of Betchgreen kennels and he in turn put me in touch with Maurice Dann of Plymouth who at the time had the best staffords in England this i knew was true because id seen near everything else . Back then there were only a handful of people who worked staffs in England most of these were show owners that didnt gametest there dogs but talked plenty , howevor thats history and has no bearing on the dogs today or so im told . Well i have been around long enough to know whos who and hear all the claims about this person or that person being in the game for years but most of its bullshit i saw most of the great staffords down the years and know who owned them and matched them . Ive seen dogs advertised as Champions or GRCHampions that were not dogs that quit cold advertised as gam dogs breedings advertised that never took place and at times great dogs badmouthed by others who hadnt the balls to match one themselves , ive seen books written about the breed were my dogs quit were beaten i put them down shown with false papers , matings that never took place dogs that lost that were never matched and dogs that are seen as legends in the eyes of todays dogmen who were not even born when these dogs were active . If a person has owned a stafford for thirty years as a pet or knows someone who once matched a dog that dont make him a expert ive listened for thirty years to tales repeated about my own dogs by people that never saw the dogs but hey thats the way of the game . Some bof the best dogs i saw were KC staffs or of unknown breeding in all my time in dogs i met some great people who have remained close friends to this day others you forget asd they go off to become experts in gamefowl , horses , pigeons or sky diving . Like myself you have to trust the word of those you had dogs from and those people have to do the same , what im saying is dont believe everything your told in dogs as some of these experts when the truth comes out have never matched or conditioned a dog in a contract match ive studied pedigrees over the last thirty years and know of only a few that are genuine , ive heard it all before but i ask this just who when did these people match there staffs into in the past like i said earlier the game was very small back then we all knew each other and what dogs we had and i dont know one dogman that still keeps gamedogs from those days , they may claim otherwise but i was there . Anyway good luck with your dogs breed them true test them hard and cull them close .
     
  20. reids skipper

    reids skipper CH Dog

    how was oscar bred springview ? ....i got intouch with bill hodgkinson years ago after trying for years to get some of the old rapparee stuff ...he was old then and in bad health but he put me intouch with someone who had his old dogs .
     

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