Clouse blood

I'm glad i ressurected this thread, lots of info in here. In the ped i posted this is the area i was concerned about. If you know anything of any of the dogs or breeders/owners let me know. A lot of the names even further back also lead me back to OFRN.

 

Well, I hope you are not waiting for my answer, lol.
Better wait for IM.
But, looks like 'Dan' got a dog, Dan's Beaver. He was bred to Norrod's Spice.
Dan's Beaver then was bred back to one of his daughters, Dan's Jessie.
(Does anybody know, what he (Dan) was looking for in a breeding ? Dan Norrod ?)
Dan's Beaver was also bred back to his dam, Mickel's Reba. Would be interesting to know, who did the breeding ?
But it looks like Dan's Beaver was something special, as he was THE foundation dog to get the next corner-stone dog from the Dan's Junior x Dragonline's Fay breeding. (at least, that could be the reason to make those breedings).

And who made the last breeding of Dan's Junior x Dragonline's Fay (? can't read the name) ?
To really answer your question, you need to know, what kind and, how many different breeding styles have been used.
Did they all breed for the same reason ?
Did it work ?
Did the littermates work ?
What's the value of this line as a whole ?
What I'm trying to say is, genetic is not everything.
It's much easier to make statements about pure bred dogs, who are also bred by the same (type of) guy for more than just 1 or 2 generations.
Really, nobody really knows, if they did not see them.
I don't need to see the i.e. Norrod dogs to know what they should look and act like, because, it's a Norrod dog. Nothing new.
Not talking about details from this family of dogs, because I don't know. But you only ask a breeder like Norrod for a dog, if you know what you are looking for. Because what you see, is what you get.

 

Ok once again let me be very clear! The statement I.M. made concerning what he thought as the heaviest OFRN dogs was a statement made concerning today's dogs!

Now concerning Clouse dogs not being OFRN is false concerning the last dogs Clouse owned and bred. Here is a pedigree of a OFRN champion with about 35% Clouse down from the last dogs Clouse bred and owned. All you have to do is go thru the peds of Romero's Cricket, Clouse's Miss T and Clouse's Judge and see the majority of the breeders and dogs in the peds to know Clouse's last dogs were OFRN dogs.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=176224

It doesn't matter what Clouse bred at the beginning or middle of his career because the last dogs were majority OFRN bred by OFRN breeders. Stickler you ask a lot of questions that can be answered in black, blue or red in peds. Stickler you have been dealing with APBTs too long to not know the answers to basic questions. Alt of times people with answers don't have the time to post on boards!

 

I don't have to check the ped, not the top side.
It's in my head deeper as you might imagine.
Well, I had 70% Clouse dogs. Now figure out.
I never knew that I kept some of the tightest ofrn dogs in the world.
The breeder also did not know. and, well, Bert Clouse also did not know.
I'm very proud about what I got, and that I got it at all. And now I can be even more proud, because this was ofrn ?
O WOW ! tzzzzzz Are you kidding me ?
Family dogs bred for 75 yrs by only 2 people, and in the meantime the dogs become ofrn dogs.
Ok.
btw. I'm not in a hurry. I can wait for those answer, as I don't dig sheet anymore.

@afb
The dogs ped you showed above makes a good one for schooling.
Without knowing the individuals, I think it's a close to perfect breeding program.
Only thing I maybe would try to change, is the top side to the bottom and the bottom on top.
But yeah, of course, it all depends on the individuals that are involved in this (dogs and men).

 

Stickler its all in black, white, red and blue what the last Clouse dogs were! The majority of the blood of the last Clouse dogs was OFRN and it doesn't matter what nose or coat the dog was/is. No you didn't have some of the tightest OFRN dogs when you said you had a 70% Clouse dog. Once again when you go thru the peds you will see the last Clouse dogs were majority OFRN just like I.M. mentioned in a previous post and that's why he made the statement dogs Martin, KZB, Patrick and Otter got were the last of the Clouse dogs!

Doesn't matter what Clouse or KZB thought because the dogs and breeders are in the pedigree...that can't be disputed. Also what can't be disputed the last of the Clouse dogs the majority of the blood was OFRN!

 

:p:pYour not wrong stickler......my mind boggles as I'm still uncertain of what I'm reading to be the writings of a pure genius or simply just inane dribble. One things for sure it takes a rear breed to be capable of being a student (questions) and teacher (answers) all rolled up in the same package. Like hybrid vigor without the 'CLICK' lol.

If in doubt say dowt.........Patjr

note: This is a fictional account intended for entertainment purposes only therefore should be considered as bullshit at its finest.:p

 

@patjr, well I take this as a compliment, lol. Thanks.
I can see you take me serious, at least a little bit.
Like hybrid vigor without the 'CLICK'. lol

I really don't want to, but I can tell you guys a little bit about them kzb dogs.
AAAaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhh
If it's not bred by kzb himself then it's no kzb bred dog anymore. If it's not bred by Norrod, then it's no Norrod dog anymore.
Ok, without going deeper into detail, well, you need to know the purpose for each breeding the man did, to get the full idea.
But if you are able to read a ped, then you might be able to see what I'm talking about.
He bred mostly his main stuff (+-80%, same style, same attitude, same everything), because that's what he liked the most.
He got different dogs that he used lightly, when the time was right. 10-20%.
The Bitty bitch for example threw smarts, ability and air to her offspring, or some 'finesse', as I would call this.
Sounds a little bit like Bolio dogs to me.
This was one of the 'sub-strains' within this family of dogs.
The Copperhead x Lucky (last pure bred Clouse dog) breeding was made for bone and stamina, for thicker skin, so to say.
This is another sub-strain within the family.
It's not only about the ped, it's also about style, personality and such things.
But the 'real' style and everything is not coming from those sub-strains.
Well, Little Boley is the man !
Do you guys really believe those double Jack dogs are the main stuff ? Just because it's all that's left ?
Do you think that Jack was a typically kzb bred dog ?
I DON'T THINK SO !!!
Well, to me, he looks more like a Boyles or a Patrick dog.
Now don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with Jack.
Just the opposite. He is excactly what he is bred for !
He is bred to be like that. It's the first time where all 3 foundation breedings were put together.
It was as clear to get him as it was clear that he will be a red nose, since this is what his parents are. Call it, if you like, old family dogs with a red nose, but it's still no ofrn.
What do you think, why was he bred back to his mom first ?
And you know what, I remember, he mentioned, that he made the breeding with me (me) in his mind.
What ? lol
And to go even further, also to show you, what kind of freak I am, I got offered 2 female pups from the very first double Jack breeding.
Jack x Lone Star, I believe.
What would you say if you get an offer like that ?
But I said: no, thank you.
silence

more silence

Well, that's a nice breeding. Made to keep the 1 sub-strain alive. You know, air, brain, ability, the finesse part.
Because there will be some use for these dogs IN THE FUTURE.
I said I don't have a use for them double Jack dogs, as this is not what I'M LOOKING FOR.
It won't work with me. It can't work with me. It may work for another generation or 2, but these dogs are pretty much bred into a corner, too much for my taste to use them as a corner stone. Dogs bred like this are bred to produce. And if you like what they are, go for it ! But you won't get 'those' 80% main strain dogs anymore.Because the 'new generation' dogs will throw different to a very high degree. Maybe it's still 50/50. I don't know. But the 80% part is not at 80% anymore.
I just ALSO like them main strain dogs better, just as the breeder himself.
And it's like that, the double Jack bred dogs are different to the double Boxianna dogs. And the WHY can be easily seen on the ped.
Both breedings are also different to Jack himself. Even if he is the sire to ALL of them dogs.
He is a special part in these dogs, but the Jack x Boxianna dogs are much more important.
This breeding was his master-piece !
But breeding them bitches back to Jack produced completaly 'new' dogs with new, different percentages.
Again, this is NOT bad.
But what's the real value, wih the main strain gone ?
There was a chance for 'another great breeding. This chance went by. That's bad, very bad. And very sad !
The breeder would know what I'm talking about in a second, I'm sure !
But he is not responsible for the dogs anymore.
Well, I'm talking about a black x red breeding, without telling any names, lol.
I'm still in shock, since I heard about the 'next' double Jack pups.
Jack x Red Bat. REALLY ??? Holy ... cow !
And as I could see, those puppies are producing already.
So I doubt, that the selection is better now, as it was when 'the man' still did his thing.
Well, the chance is gone and from now on, it's much harder to select the right dogs to get the 'main-quality' back.
I don't think these dogs will stay on their own for very long.
It's going down already.
The most important genetic part is still saved on ice.
I see there is some plans to use 1 of the dogs I'm talking about, for outside breedings.
Doing so would be the next bad step, as they don't have a chance without the Blackie dog.
I was waiting so long for the right breeding, but it never took place.
And, well, the double Boxianna stuff might be still somewhere. So, there is still a chance.
But it ain't that easy anymore as it could be and should be.
Too bad.

And calling Clouse dogs ofrn is still wrong.

 

Would you still be able to register these dog in the OFRNR? I was under the impression if your dog had to much white is was not considered OFRN and not registrable. So I ask about these 315694 being registrable? And if you can't change what a dog is , then if its OFRN and blk can it still be called and OFRN and be registered as such in OFRNR? If not then by the OFRNR it's not a OFRN.

 

Your welcome stickler...The compliment is your pleasure lol...I admit my comprehension needs improvement especially after reading your essays but I still persevere in the hope of finding some gem of information or knowledge.(your not alone, Keystone has the same affect on me but he can do it within a single line lol).So to answer your assumption, no I don't take you seriously yet . In fact I find your writing style to be hilarious the way you can have a conversation with your inquisitive 'little friend'. Like thinking but out aloud lol. At least it puts a smile on my face. So it's all good, I'll just have to grin and bear it. All the best to you stickler.

 

Damn, and I thought I'm THE MAN.
As you seriously realized when I wrote that 3-liner to you. Almost key-style.

That's how I looked at it, too.

 

Stickler you just contradicted yourself! Your last post you went off on some rant about why you think KZB bred the dogs the way he did! It still doesn't change the fact that KZB bred dogs or the last of the Clouse dogs the majority of the blood is OFRN bred by OFRN breeders…there is no two ways about it! If you can read a pedigree then you know the make up of a dog…who was the last breeder, nose or coat doesn't matter! The only thing that matters is the blood that flows thru their veins and what breeders are responsible for the blood!

 

CrazyHorse, do you see them old 'Old Family Reds' and the Old Family Red Noses as one and the same thing ?
So, in earlier times it was not possible to call them Old Family Red dogs OFR, if they did not had a red nose. This is what IM said. It's a pure bred breed/strain/or whatever of red noses. No black. Dominant/recessive ? He does not even agree to just call them Old Family dogs, so that color really would not matter that much at all, probably.

Doesn't matter ? Well, it does more to you as it does to me.
I don't have an interest in them ofrn dogs.
What about a bofrnr (black old family red nose registry). Should be a good business.

So you would call dogmen like Tudor and Corvino ofrn breeders ?
Are the ofrn not just a strain ? A strain of reds, bred down from a low number of dogs ?
With a name like CrazyHorse, did you ever hear about 'mother-lines' ?
Another example: Eli dogs are also called Dibo dogs. Well, and the way YOU look at it, the Heinzl dogs, the Arizona Aces, should be called also Eli dogs. Calling Clouse dogs ofrn is no big difference.

Excactly ! But why do I have the feeling that you just don't get it ?
Crosses have been made. Would you agree ?
English x Irish, loosely spoken. Would you call this still Irish bred ?
What if the 'english type breeders' did always bred back into their english bred stuff, would you still call them Irish, because it's all still down from the same dogs, same crosses ?
Would you call breeders, who liked them crossed dogs better then the pure stuff, still Irish dog or English dog breeders, like Tudor and Corvino ?

This question was not asked by me, so there's no reason for you guys not to answer.
What about the 7 generation thing ?
What defines an ofrn dog ?
Color most likely not, lol.

And another thing, you are missing many many good options to better your own stuff, if your selection is only about them ofrn.

However, sure you are right.
Here's the proof.

 

One more time about color, simple genetics and facts.

Red x red can and will produce only reds. It's safe to say the black is gone. A red dog is always 100% red. If the dominant black would be still there then it would ALWAYS show and come up on top. So, whenever you see a black nose, then it's safe to say there's black in there. But it's not safe to say it's 100% black. If you ever see red noses coming from a black nose dog, then it's safe to say that he's still carrying the hidden red.
But you can't say for sure that the red is completely gone, even if everything the black ever produced was black and nothing but black no matter what he was bred to. The red can still be there, but it's recessive and can't show if the competition goes against those black genes. It's all about odds and percentages.
Well, breeders, who are breeding ofrn or ofr or just any red dogs, will always have do deal with at least 1 generation of black noses, if this is a 'real' cross of red and blacks.
Now, if you are breeding for reds, then the next generation won't be black anymore, or at least, they would not be used for breeding for that matter.
So a black dog in a line of reds is always the proof for (at least a little bit of) a cross in them. If you are breeding blacks for another generation, or generations, then it makes me believe, that the dogs are not bred that heavy on them reds. Would you still call yourself ofrn breeder, if you breed them blacks more often ?
The red part is what makes the cross in them black nose strains. Boudreaux dogs i.e.

But you can still lying to yourself, if it makes you feel better. Some facts, for everyone to see. But ignoring facts won't help that much, if you are looking for the truth.
Reality-check, please.

And again, about the recessive becomes dominant. Don't know right now, where it came from. I don't think so.
Maybe the other way around. Means, if you are breeding only pure blacks, BB to another BB, then all you are using is the dominant ones. Who will come on top ? What if it goes like that for generations with always the same dominant B 'winning the battle' ?
Can and will this produce mutations back to recessive (red) ? Just like HammerHead mentioned with his example. (??)
The 'ducking' dominant genes become recessive again ?
I just think it's much harder to get the dominant back from the recessive genes, as it is to make them dominant genes stepping back to recessive. That's a genetic game-check, lol. Well, I have no idea, but, who knows ..

 

Stickler the smoke and mirrors trick doesn't work with me! Nothing changes the genetic makeup of a dog, nothing changes the breeders or the blood that runs thru it's veins! You have to come with a better Jedi Mind Trick than what you are posting which contains alot of contraditions you gloss over trying to prove a point which makes no sense because all the answers are in black, white blue and red in peds! BTW love the way you try and bait but once again you are not dealing with a newbie!

 

I agree Crazy Horse smokin mirrors dont work.It os what it is.

 

butcher boy lives on............

 

I've asked a few of the old timer from that era about Butcher Boy all were under the opinion the dog pictured in the center is Butcher Boy but were not 100% , as you know how Dogmen are liars and cons. So I'm patiently waiting to see this photo Iron Mike has of him being light yellowish red/red nose. Still a little curious about my question.

 

Clouse' Butcher boy and Hootens Butcher boy are two different dog's
the one in the center of the above pic is Hootens Butcher boy,
I believe the dog this thread is about Clouse' Butcher boy.

 

What is VERY interesting is the lack of solid black dogs originally imported into the US by old timer like colby, williams, feeley, shipley, armitage.......

Even the old english strains which are the very foundation of the modern game dog, are largely solid brindle or brindle and white. This suggests that gameness was loosely linked to tight breeding practices. Everyone know that brindle throw reds, then reds throw whites.... This bleaching which demonstrates recessiveness ALLOWED OFRN to survive outcrosses long into the future.....

JMHO

 

my bad........