Which dogs created the APBT?

Yes sir, my sentiments exactly.

 

A dreary day in the mid-Atlantic... Monkeying about with the "Search" function here on game-dog, this old thread caught my eye -- it inevitably devolves into a lot of silliness and turgid use of the English language, but I thought this old post from this long-dormant thread was well-worth a bump!

 

Given the phenotype I think we can all recognize in this century-old photograph, I thought this was worth a bump, too! I question whether this is the famed Jock, since I think that dog lived in the late 19th century, but that's not really germane to why this photo is so neat.

 

...no he ain't the same dog as jock,which i'm sure was wrote before ..1910..??

 

I am of the opinion that the APBT's origin isn't as clear cut as any single cross. I believe form followed function and that the breed is an amalgamation of what people had available that fit the bill. The APBT has always been an all purpose type of dog here in the states, and I personally gave dogs that didn't suit me, (decades ago) to ranchers who used them as catch dogs for hogs and cattle. I know the English like to believe that they were the only ones to use dogs to this end.... but that's just not the case. Hell.... I use them to stop hogs that the jagds can't these days. Lemm who was a friend of mine swore that some were descendants of some sort of Spanish bulldog. I tend to believe this simply because it makes sense.... dogs from everywhere found their way to our shores, and for better or worse they were often selectively bred for jobs that would make people cringe nowadays. The Cuban bloodhound,( which wasn't a bloodhound AT ALL) for instance supposedly originated from the Iberian peninsula and brought over by the Spanish was used to subjugate Native Americans and to control slaves and those laborers bound to the haciendas. When the Spanish gave Jamaica to England.... the English used these dogs in the first Maroon war, which lasted fifty two years, (according to what I've read), to control the Maroons..... The United States later used them in hopes of controlling the Seminole.... the Florida territorial government actually charged the US Army $2,500 for their import and upkeep, though they were only credited with catching two Indians. Despite not being much use in subjugating the Seminole.... they were vary good at catching slaves, and were used all throughout the south. I have heard others suggest that they are part of what later became the Presa and Fila, but wouldn't be surprised if their descendants were bred into various other breeds including bull breeds that were much bigger than the ones we hear our dogs all came from. No fact here.... just an opinion.

 

I agree..... The second paragraph sums it up for me.... But I don't think we have to go back to ancient times to see it. I believe that in much of rural America, and especially the South that a dog was defined my the work it did, much more than it was a breed. I have old match reports of people using Catahoula bulldogs believe it or not. Rural Americans didn't have the luxury of importing dogs, and bred from what they had or had access to and improved upon it. I believe the APBT as a breed took shape as people were more freely able to move across the country to compete and breed from the best. Again.... just an opinion, but one based on rural life.

 

I agree to after I google few words to see what they mean LOL... next in layman's terms lol...

 

..i belive there was more lines to choose from in the new world..USA...ie;dogs from all over dutch..spanish..eng..irish..fren./etc...but belive the dog's from the islands..uk/ire..had the majority on the foundation...when talking history on something you can be passonite about,the worst thing to let get in the way is your own PRIDE.......WHEN WE SEE A DUCK ,,IT'S A DUCK...????...HATE ARGUEING HISTORY....LOL...LOL...LOL....

 

Ima say it was the bulldog and english white terrier. I was just looking at a few old pics of the EWTs and they looked somewhat similar to some older Colby dogs of yesteryear like this one

English White Terrier


Colby's Galtie


And this is an old English Bull Terrier that looks like Colby's Pansy


Pansy

 

As far as the percentage of the cross(es) I'm clueless to that

 

I decided not to look any further on the subject either because if I do I wont stop until I find a answer to help me sleep at night lol but I agree, it gotta be some EWT in there. Too much similarities to a bunch of old dogs

 

LOL...I agree with TDK...it was a 'fertile bang' that caused it lol...so god bless the Americans for the perpetuation and the continuation to developing the best fighting dog known to humankind. Yet for some , thats not enough so speculation runs rampant to include Spanish , Cajun and some vague talk about some ' native Indian ' dogs, which also supposedly originated from foreign shores or whatever else can be thought of to make it seem uniquely USA made...( and I can honestly say that comment was said with respect, even if some may feel somewhat offended.)
As far as the European continent is concerned, I've seen mongrels of various mixtures of Staffords, Bull Terriers, Massiff, along with other types of dogs, combined to produce a good 'allrounder' hog bred mutt, which resembles a APBT, moreso than, any European pure breed dog of today. So granted, there is the possibility/ probability of having some influence, but you'll have to wait in line behind the 'blue paul' as to how much affect it contributed.(again no offense intended JMHO.)
Well, by now it shouldn't come as no surprise who I'm going to give full credit to for creating the
breed,which is justifiably known as the American Pit Bull Terrier. The dogs form and function, along
with its broad appearence to bred true to type came from whence we DO KNOW were they came, the British Isles.To think otherwise,I believe is WRONG, as nobody can speak historically about the breed without including them...(and to add anything more carries no more weight than speculation)
So that brings me to attempt to answer the question "What dogs created the APBT?".Well no surprises there, I'm in the same boat as you lol......so what have we been told....the 'sport' of matching dogs to weight suggest that the Bull n Terrier types did reign supreme,so for me,that's the most likely scenario,however that's got a ring of mongrelism about it, so I don't mind also thinking, perhaps it really is a Bulldog for the sake of purity LOL.

side note: it's not uncommon to improve on foundation dogs.

 

I haven't heard that one before. Is it somewhere online where I can look into this?

 

...the great "W.KOMINSKI"...was known to use bull-terriers in his breedings..like most great breeders that were doing it for hundreds of years,, he bred game pit-bulldogs--to--game pit-bulldogs...???

 

Yeah.....I've heard that before too BLUE8BULL.....have you heard the story about Tudor importing Staffordshire Bull Terriers????....Yet, I've never seen photos nor pedigrees to support these claims, about either dogmen....a case of using some not so secret dogs, without even having any accounts of otc performance tests from their SECRET recipes LOL...Also, as luck would have it, they didn't breed up a lot of these dogs, as the one's they got just happen to be blessed with gameness to burn...sounds a bit strange to me...LOL

but hey BLUE8BULL, if you believe that's what Walter really did, well that's fine day me...it might be the secret key to success...would you be KEEN to try it???? LOL.

 

Heard Carver did it And also Hammonds..Stinson and Glover..list goes on and on.