production percentages

OK say you have an ace and you breed that dog to another good dog, how many of the pups have to turn out before you would consider it a good breeding. I'm looking for your opinions and reasoning behind them here folks. Lets just say out of a litter of ten, how many would have to turn out before you say it was a good breeding. Ex. out of ten pups you get one ace but four good dogs, four average dogs and two culls...would that be good production or not? On the one hand it produced 80% average or better dog's, on the other hand it only produced 40% good dogs and only reproduced the ace parent's quality once. Get the idea? What in your opinion constitutes a good litter production wise?

 

IMO you could look at it like this.What you might call a good dog someone else might call an average dog and an average dog might be someone elses cull.But if 4 or 5 dogs turned out I would say thats a pretty good breeding.JMHO

 

That's true. One man's cull may be another man's foundation dog. That said, I was thinking about 50 percent production or better constitutes a good breeding. In otherwords, as long as you're not having to cull more than a couple everytime you're getting somewhere.

 

If you get 1 ace 4 good dogs and 4 avg dogs you better stick them every time she comes in heat. Way too many people think good dogs just pop out every litter its just not so and ace dogs are very far and few between. I dont care what any one says Id breed them ever time just for one ace dog and 4 good dogs It takes a long time for most people Just to get a few good dogs from there breedings. Keep all of them and let time tell. J

 

Yea, I don't actually own such a litter, it was just a hypothetical, but I think you're right, good dogs are a lot harder to come by than people think. If a breeder can consistently produce a majority of above average dogs (key word being consistently) he's probably doing something right.

 

50%? Anyone who could consistently produce 50% good dogs would be an unparalleled breeding genius.



If I had 2 dogs could produce 50% everytime I would be another Hollingsworth.

 

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I didn't say 50% world beaters I said if you could produce 50% average to above average animals then you must know what you're doing. JMHO.
I'm not a breeder, but from my experience just observing litters and talking to folks is that given a litter of ten well bred pups you might end up with 3 that make something of themselves. A truly great dog is a lot harder to come by. Which is why I said, if you can get five out of ten to work out pretty consistently then you really know what you are doing.

 

50%is good but sometimes you get litters where all of them are good(tkks tina louise and Vaughns buster made the litter with airheads Ch candy and I think I was told there were 6 pups and all made Ch. Atk Jigger and Cherry made 11 pups and 10 made it 3 made Gr Ch 2 made Ch and 5 at least 1xw and were kept for brood. Clayhills Shalako and miss rage had 6 pups make Ch. All of the above dogs were bred again and the results were not as good but you still got good ones. I am not sure why you can breed two dogs one time and get Fire in every one but the next time they may not be as good. I might add Atks Cherry bomb was bred befor Jigger and made two Ch dogs out of 5 pups. and I know Candy made some more Ch dogs when bred to monsterman. I think Ch Leroy was one, So you Just never know what you will get. Blood lines dont seem as important to me as the indivuale dog them self. Some dogs Just can produce and some very well bred dog cant stick crap. So if you get a good pair then I would stick them every time and keep all pups clos you never know you may find your ace and YOUR strain. YIS J

 

That was very informative, and was the type of response I was looking for.

 

LoL. Just don't cull the way Hollingsworths did.

 

That's true TripJ. I think the reason behind never really getting the same results comes from the genes in which were pulled and placed together. You know what I'm gettin at? Like they just must've been a hair off this go around. I'm not sure. Good in one area, is mediocre in the next so it's tough to label anything less than an ace. I'd say as long as they had the traits you were seeking, 50% aint bad. Culling comes into play, and outcrossing is always an option. The possibilites then become endless.

 

I jsut want to say one thing... 1+4+4+2=11 not 10 ok sorry to be a smartass

 

funny, I think I was counting the ace as on of the good dogs. Kind of like a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isn't neccessarily a square....well at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it

 

I don't really consider myself a breeder, but have several very close friends that I consider to be top breeders.In the top 10.

A true breeder, doesn't always breed strictly for "show" dogs. Some times breedings are done strictly for future brood stock. Most of the time these are very tight line breedings or inbreedings. I have seen brood stock that would not be considered worthy of breeding by most, but when crossed correctly, they are GREAT producers of good dogs. There are few breeders who have this gift.

Just look back at old SDJ's, 99% of the winners were outcrosses, and 50% of them were out of dogs who never showed.

When doing a cross for the intent of producing "show" dogs, I would say 50% is a VERY good percentage. "Show" dogs that can compete in top 10% are few and far inbetween. 1 in a every few litters would be good for the average breeder in my opinion.

You look at the breeders dogs who "show" in the top 10% consistantly, and I will promise you its not any kind of formula you can follow, because in my opinion the breeder IS the formula. Those breeders just have a natural ability to see things and understand things that others don't.

Two of my mentors, are people I consider top breeders, who consistanly produce quality dogs with above average percentages, but both have completely different philosophy's when it comes to breeding.

I don't actually think percentages are accurate 99% of the time anyway, because peoples standards are subjective, and many dogs bred for "show" never see the "show" rings with top compitition.

 

It seems like any litter that has an ace in it has to be a good one. Interseting thread though.

 

I remember talking to an old dog man one time about this. He said, " If you are batting 300% as a baseball player, you are probbly a millionare and considered great but if your a bulldog breeder and producing the same #'s you might not be considered great and you surely ain't a millionare! " Then he said " Somethings wrong with this picture"

Basically in a nut shell, 30% is not a bad percentage in breeding bulldogs.