"Gameness" A dying trait?

"Gameness" A dying trait?

Ok so if this post is borderline unaceptable delete it. Im just trying to have thought provoking, meaninfull, insightfull discussion on what is IMO the true defining quality of the true APBT.
This was sparked in the thread about hog hunting and it being a measurement of gameness in the APBT.

We know that per 1976 matching dogs is illegal. Most would agree that this was the true way to test and measure "gameness". Ok that being said other than Hog hunting, what other means is there to leagally test this trait? I dont know of any. So if we do not accept this as a true test, is "gameness" a quality that we should let die in the breed. Also as matching is not legal is it even necessary anymore? Do we let drive replace gameness and is that a disservice to the breed. The way I see it, the true APBT can only be carried out, outside the borders of the US. Im not trying to be a APBT NAZI, and Im not saying I agree with the above informaion, just curious as to what others think the direction the APBT should be taking here in the United States. Personally I think "gameness" is a vital role to the APBT but I dont see a future in it here in the US. I personally think we are going to have to settle for drive or import dogs to keep the breed what it should be in a legal manner.

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

It has been said here many times before..There is only one way to evaluate a dogs gameness,and that is illegal..With that being said,people(myself NOT included) break the law concering these dogs every minute of every day..Die hard dogmen will continue breeding the apbt to comfirm to the old standards regardless of the laws..and thats a fact..

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

Just because jay walking is illegal doesn't mean people don't do it, get my drift :cool:

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

oh and to better answer ur question, no there is only one way to truely test gameness, yea there's other activities that test a dogs heart or strength but the gametest between 2 pitdogs is the only true way to do it
NUFF SAID

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

You hit the nail on the head.

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

Once you start breeding for anything but gameness your dogs are a shell of what they once were.

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

Oh trust me Im in no way naive as to what really happens! I was just saying as a majority what do we do. Was there in your alls opinions alternatives to testing. I understand that people are going to continue to test dogs and match and breed these dogs here in the US, I was just rehashing what has already been more than likely beaten in the ground! I agree 100% that anything less is a shell of the dog it should be. So I guess then the true nature of the dog unfortunately lies in the hands of the few who chose to circumvent the law. My personal feelings is I dont have a problem with it and if it were legal would at least test my own dogs. However it is not so I do what I can with what I have within the law. Im a weight puller, I still belive a APBT should be an APBT.

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

I think people who breed should pay particular attention to working drive and willingness to get a job done. IMO, too many APBT breeders and fanciers seem to think a dog is either a showdog/pet or a fightingdog. Wrong, there are a lot of different type of work an APBT can do and when breeding attention should be paid to as many types of legal work as can be done.

Weight pull, hoghunting, agility, flyball, obedience, Schutzhund, ect, ect.


In order to not cause undue controversy I'll just say that matching/gametesting has IMO become much less of a reliable test for determining an overall quality dog than in the past and not go into too much detail as to why. But in general terms, the pressure on the matching community has robbed a lot of the results of matches of some of their ability to "prove" a dog. In other words I think there are probably a lot more fake "champions" and more slight of hand involved than in the past. Its all become so much about money and the type of person who AS A RULE (I know there are exceptions) will engage in a highly illegal blood sport on which very large amounts of money are gambled aren't the most upright and reliable.

In other words I think in the past the goal was to prove the main quality of an overall, all around quality dog. I think that has become much less of a goal and in fact I'd bet more people in the game breed for a very hard mouth than gameness.

People mostly, IMO use the excuse of the magical quality of gameness of justify what is in fact blood lust. People engaged in shady stuff always come up with a spin on it to make themselves feel better about it.

In other words, which came first, the dog or the game? And which is more important, the dog or the game?

I think you can still produce an all around excellent working dog without game testing or matching. One which would, in fact if someone were to breed for gameness would be match quality dogs within a few generations. My first example would be.......LarSan dogs.

Its been my experence that people into and enamoured of dogfighting will belittle all legal forms of work in the name of gameness. If they are such purist they should start bull baiting to test dogs since THAT is in fact the true root of the breed and went on probably for a thousand years before matching dog against dog became popular.

In fact back when bull-baiting was the sport of kings dog matching was looked down on as "petty".


So, in closing I think you can have a quality working bulldog without gametesting or matching, it just takes doing other types of work and paying attention to and understanding drive. The whole focus on gameness is a word game used to justify the matching of dogs.

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

The problem is the word GAMENESS is thrown around to easily. Everybody owns a Game dog if they hunt hogs, weight pull,runs an hour on a mill,etc people believe their dog is game. The only way is ILLEGAL to know if the dog is game.

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

Very concise and insightful and confirms some suspicions I've had for a long time...

Dreamer

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

BUNCHA NUTJOBS ALLOFYAS.


But being serious, dont try and put all dogmen/handlers/spectators in the same little bullshit psycho babble box. They come from every walk of life,every area and from every class. With ALL DIFFERENT MENTAL STATES.

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

I think that drive, heart, willingness and intensity are things that can be tested with hog hunting and weight pull. They can test gameness but to a very small degree. People say that putting a dog on a large hog can test gameness, but it is a very dangerous and innaccurate way of testing. Most folks I know who hog hunt with dogs don't let a dog go in alone and don't let the dogs get to the point of near death. Most go in for the live catch once the dogs have it cornered or brought down. I think weightpull tests stamina, heart, drive and intensity but not so much gameness.

The real tests of course are illegal. Then again, I think folks get matching dogs and box events mixed up with testing. People can test in their own yard or in a remote area if they have the right dogs or know someone with a tested dog. Winning in the ring does not always test. In fact, real testing was done outside the ring. Sometimes with 2 or more or letting one dog go at it, and once that is through put a fresh one in. This is all pre 76' though.

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

Blah blah blah. I guess I'm just caught up in the right way of doing things....even if its wrong. Nuff said.

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

penn, with all due respect, I must disagree.

Firstly, not all folks who admire gameness are bloodthirsty monsters just in it for the gore. For example, I highly admire gameness, but I am not blood thirsty in the least. To me it's just an unfortunate by-product of the process.

Secondly, we could never go back to bull baiting b/c our dogs were not created for it. Our dogs' ancestor the BULLdog was, but our dogs are BULL TERRIERS, that is a bull & terrier cross, created when bull baiting became illegal.

I know some folks like to believe that the APBT is the original bull baiting bulldog, but IMO they are not. Too many historical accounts of the breed contradict that thought, as well as the breed's name!

But to answer the OP's question, IMO the only LEGAL way to game test would be some type of animal baiting, in our country hog hunting. But as you have seen, many die-hards refuse to accept anything but dog-on-dog as a game test, even though dog-on-livestock (hogs, bulls etc.) was actually used for game testing LONG before dog-on-dog combat was even thought of. Go figure. lol.

But as previous posters have said, there will always be those who flaunt the law & will engage in matching covertly. But as we are seeing with our very eyes, the law will eradicate them & their dogs one by one, slowly but surely. It is happening now - Tant, Boudreax, DSK, Patrick & the list will go on. The sad, bad fact of the matter is here in the U.S. we & our dogs must adapt or die.

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

Or move......

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

True dat! Too bad I can't talk my husband into moving to Mexico! lol.

And I have to ask Bully - you mentioned about being caught up in the "right way" of doing things. What makes dog-on-dog right? Dog matches were not even on the map as game tests until AFTER large animal baiting - what was then considered a true test of gameness - was outlawed. The original game test was dog vs. large ferocious animal, not dog vs. dog.

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

No, I don't think we need to adapt or die. I think that people need to either give up the box matches and events and keep the testing behind closed doors.

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

The desire and love of work is bred into a dog, and into the Pit Bull has been bred an intense desire to accept any challenge, and to succeed at any task. This is what makes the sport of weight pulling such a great test for this breed: it requires strength,tenacity and drive. There is one point in favor of weight pulling as a modern test of the Pit Bull. While a dog may become a pit champion by defeating three mediocre dogs, and be himself a mediocre dog of questionable gameness, in the sport of weight pulling the dog will always come up against an opponent (the weight) that is of unvarying quality.The weight will always demand that the dog give his best effort to win, for if he does not, it is very apparent for all to see.

Louis B. Colby


Take from that what you will, obviously he sees some form of redeeming quality to the sport of pulling and how gameness has its role in it.

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

Lethal: Giving up box matches is adapting. And you can test privately all you want, but I'll bet you my bottom dollar there will always be a rat in the wood pile somewhere & doggers will continue to get taken down as long as they break the law, not to mention the bounties on their heads.

ColbyDogs: That is a very interesting post, esp. coming from a dog man like him. I have seen pull dogs give their all, even standing on their toe nails to pull a cart & never quitting even though the weight had them beat. But I don't think I'd put it in the same category as battling an animal. Still, LC must know something we don't or he would not have said what he did.

 

Re: "Gameness" A dying trait?

I think my point was that "matching" has become so shady, with no central reporting authority that the use of matching and gametesting is
OVERALL reduced as "proving". What I mean is you can have now "fake" champions since things are so fragmented. A dog that has beaten unworthy competition hasn't proven anything. But as fragmented as things are that is likely all too common. And add to that we talk about gameness, but again I'd bet that mouth is the main thing being bred for now.

I just don't see it as the end all be all for producing great dogs. What I mean is that "gamebred" isn't the same as it used to be, even when speaking of "proven" dogs. Except in rare cases where you are dealing with people who have real integrity. I view the process as it stands now as so corrupted that folks with real integrity, although they do exist are a rarity. And I suspect the overall quality of the gamebred dog is reduced, except as regards mouth.

But thats just conjecture, no way to know for sure, unless you've been around forever.