Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

What a sh!tty title for this post, I apologize about that. This is a hard subject to formulate questions about and to write about.

I read this site more than I read any of the other APBT-related websites out there because frankly, pound for pound, this site has as much information about true American Pit Bull Terriers than the Library of Congress does about everything.

Now, I don't, not now, not ever, want to breed APBTs. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to, but, like I always say, when it comes to breeding dogs, I think I can, but I know I can't.

However... I would eventually like to own a game-bred, true APBT of solid parentage. I have no idea if my current, (assumably) scatter-bred pittie is (game-bred) or not. I treat her, handle her and am mindful of her "as if she is" though, because as many of you know I prefer hyper-vigilance when it comes to these dogs: I don't want to do something stupid and f**k it up for everybody else. I keep repeating that, it ought to be the mantra for every responsible pit bull owner LOL

Anyway, eventually I'd like to be able to take home a dog from Gary Hammond's yard (if he let me) or Sorrels, but I have some questions about the breeding in-general, and with them come lots more questions and a lot of confusion.

I look at the bloodline discussions and pedigree discussions on this board and it's fascinating. What I'm wondering, though, is how much consideration most of the dog men and dog women in "the fraternity" who are breeding these dogs give to things like the correction of faults.

When the topic of breeding APBTs comes up, the focus, a lot of the time, is the gameness. And not without good reason, as, this quality is what makes these dogs, well, these dogs. And from what I understand, and please, correct me if I'm wrong, it also plays a part in making these animals so affable and lovable with people.

But how much emphasis is placed on other things, like, for instance, correcting hip dysplasia? Or problems with the elbows? Things like that?

For instance (and this is PURELY hypothetical) ... I hear a lot about Jeep X Red Boy. That seems to be popular. However, I don't hear a whole lot about, say, Alligator X Honeybunch (just as an example)...

Now, here's more what-if's ... Suppose a breeder had a Bitch that was Jeep on top and Red Boy on the bottom and she was a good dog, a great dog, but her hips were a little weak (I'm not saying dogs from these lines are, it's just a hypothetical) and she found a stud, from a line with comparable gameness, and with excellent hips. Both animals have solid hearts with no congenital defects, good elbows, good conformation, the sire's working ability is better because his hips are rock solid, and the dam has good wind... The individuals, at least in terms of the traits that they're phenotypical (showing) for work out, so why not do the cross?

In a case like that, I reckon it'd be necessary to look at the sire and dam of each individual as well, wouldn't it?

In a breeding like that, perhaps (hopefully) one or two pups would be born with the sire's great hips, while also getting the defect-free heart, and the good elbows too, as, both the sire and dam have those. But then there's the gameness... that, from what I understand, is a toss up; neither animal may have the level that the breeder is looking for. Or both could, who knows?

Sh!t. I'm rambling again like I always do. I guess what I mean to say is, right now I'm learning how to be a responsible Pit Bull owner. I'd also like to learn how to be a responsible Pit Bull buyer. If you look at, say, cancer in dogs, you'll find that Golden Retrievers have a high incidence of cancer. Now, in terms of the APBT, are things like that (cancer, genetic deficiencies) given as much attention, when it comes to breeding, as gameness? And if so, in a lot of these common breedings and outcrosses, are these kind of corrections being made, or is it that certain lines just seem to produce healthier dogs with a good probability of there being lots of gameness? And of course, how the Hell do you boil all this down into a "what to look for in a breeding" type of way?

Any information is, as always, much appreciated.

Thanks!

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

long story short- people breeding "performance" dogs arent doing the ~standard~ health testing ( by and large anyway) just breeding "best to best" and letting the chips fall as they may.

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

RR is right,I don't know any APBT breeders that check hips and are doing the normal health testing.I don't believe our breed is really bothered by alot of the health problems like hip dysplasia,not saying there's never been an APBT with it but I ain't seen them.It's a pretty healthy breed overall.

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

Thanks for your guy's input so quickly. It is, and has always been, widely purported that these dogs are quite a bit sturdier than most, that's definitely true...

Now, regarding "best-to-best performance" breeding... I'm reasonably sure of what you guys are referring to.

It comes back to "There's only one way to test gameness, and it's illegal." ... How else is the breeder going to know which one is the best? That's dark waters right there, and I don't want anybody to get into trouble so I'll leave it there and won't push with any more questions about that. Let's just say that there have been folks in the past who fairly matched dogs in order to find the best, and who never, ever tortured them; and leave it at that.

Too many damned gray areas...

You know something though... I've met a lot of healthy Pit Bulls, healthy, sweet-dispositioned APBTs. I guess that goes with the "pit dog" territory, you'd need a sturdy, healthy dog of good physical constitution. Heh, in a way, the old dog men inadvertantly created the ultimate pet dog, friendly, sound body, good health... When I think about that, my gut reaction is "I don't want these dogs to go away or die out. Game dogs are great dogs!" ... and then, well, then I have moral discussions with myself that I'm still working on reconciling.

So, let's take this in another direction, instead. Since it's illegal, to test which animals are the best, we can, for the sake of this thread assume that such things aren't going on as frequently as they were pre-70's, and as such, a lot of APBT's are being bred based on different criteria. Now, that being said, is it safe to say that the APBTs being produced today from the old-tyme, game dog lines, like your Carver, Jeep, Red Boy, Colby etc. will still have, to one degree or another, the gameness that makes these dogs so great? Are all true APBT's possessing gameness, and just in varying degrees? Or do some have it while others, even from the same litter, might not? Will it die out?

If you don't want to answer these questions for personal reasons or whatever, I understand completely. I'm not writing a book or a cop or anything, and I don't roll dogs, and I'm not looking to breed. I'm just curious is all.

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

i mean game dogs are just that.... thats what they a bred for.
if you wanna breed for standards i think you should deal with staffs
thats just my opinion, everyone wants to fix something about the game dogs
what we need is more people tryin to preserve what the greats started
i just wish more people would learn about the history and respect it
i dont really want to "improve" the dogs
if we change something it starts with BSL and how people view the apbt

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't believe that the APBT needs to be "fixed", and as a matter of fact, I don't believe that they need to change, either. I think that game dogs have a place in our society, and it needs to stay that way. I'll be the first to say, anybody who tries to breed-out dog-on-dog aggression is an idiot, I'll take dog aggression in a dog who's intelligent and people friendly every time.

And I don't much care for standards as such, outside of those that describe a sturdy, functional, healthy dog, which the APBT definitely is. I was thinking more along the lines of genetic deficiencies, from more of a scientific perspective. But it seems like the more I read, and the more I talk to folks and look at dogs, it becomes increasingly apparent that folks back in the day somehow bred a really healthy, mentally stable type of dog, by simply breeding for gameness. I find that rather amazing, and that reason alone pretty-much sums up why I'll never give a penny to the Humane Society; but that's a topic for another thread.

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

Didn't Gary Heinzel make a name for himself breeding some of the gamest, healthiest pits, just out of curiosity?

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

Unless you are well versed in the dog & bitch ,the dogs & dogmen backing them, its gonna be a crap shoot. Lots of bullshit out there about supposed 'gamedogs'. One mans gamecheck, is another mans roll.

Do your homework and be prepared to shell out some $$$$$$$$$.

jmo.

edit- or just be happy w/ what you have. get a rescue chances are high you will be just as pleased.

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

They're still dogs, and with any animal, tight breeding can accentuate the unwanted traits as well as perpetuate the desired traits. There are certainly game-bred adult dogs that come off the chain to lead more active lives as pet/house/competition dogs, that promptly blow out a knee (or two!) and need TPLO surgery to the tune of several thousand bucks and weeks/months of rest and confinement-- for a drivey dog, this is not good. For rescues dealing with bust dogs, this could obviously mean life or death for the dog, because most rescues don't have $5-$9K to spend on one animal's vet bills. A dog's zest for life can certainly help him hide the common APBT health problems. Even a savvy breeder won't know about a genetic heart murmur unless the dog is echo'd by a cardiologist, or just drops dead one day and they happen to do a necropsy.

I'm not sure why people are so against health testing as a concept-- there is really nothing to lose, and only information to be gained that in turn, could benefit a breeder (as far as improving their lines even more, or even for pricing/marketing of their pups) and benefit the dogs. Nobody is saying that people would be prohibited from breeding dogs with poorly-tested knees or bad hips or heart murmurs. Having more information about your stock (and their useful life expectancy once they leave your yard) doesn't seem so offensive to me. Obviously, it's not the end-all, be-all, but that's the same with everything in dog breeding--the total package doesn't happen by only focusing on one trait. We tell this to "blue dog" and American Bully and non-working show-dog people all the time.

Plus we all know that just because the parents are one way, there's no guarantee the pups will be the same. It's a crap shoot. So why not have more information to try and turn the odds in a breeder's favor and in the dogs' favor? As far as people wanting to "improve" the dogs, isn't that what most people want from their breedings? If you want the same thing as what you already have, then why would you spend time researching peds and going to weight pulls and conformation shows and carefully selecting the out cross or even just the stud? Why would people separate from their mentors, instead of just doing exactly what he/she does? Etc.

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

As for the OP, one thing that is pretty sad:

The German Shepherd is a breed that is infamous for extremely high rates of hip dysplasia. However, their breeders have been working to create healthier animals, while preserving the other desirable traits of that breed.

And thus, our breed-- the APBT-- has a higher incidence of hip dysplasia now than German Shepherds. Over 22% of the APBTs listed with the OFA were dysplastic. I read somewhere that of over 100 dog breeds, APBTs are 27th for hip dysplasia and 15th for elbow dysplasia. Yikes. So it seems that as far as *structural* health, there are many breeds with far fewer orthopedic issues, we aren't even at the middle, 50-50.

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

We hopefully all want to breed better dogs than what we currently have,I'm always looking for better.But when I do a breeding,the goal I'm striving for is a bulldog.I've never looked at a dog and said to myself,that dog's got great hips.I've never personally had a APBT that had any health issues that are commonly tested for.But it's like everything else,if it makes you feel better to health test your dogs,then by all means do it.But I don't know anybody that does it.

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

22% is a ridiculiously high number,are you sure bullies aren't being counted in that percentage?

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

Only registered APBTs.

ASTs are listed separately. Their % of dysplasia, as listed with OFA, has dropped in the past ten years. The APBT % of dysplasia has increased in that same time.

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

Touchy subject. Being in denial about problems/issues running through the dogs isn't going to help the breed long term. There are lots of "performance lines" in other breeds that are going extinct because they reached their tipping points. Say what you want, but the heart of a lion doesn't mean squat if the dog's got legs like a lamb.

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

ADBA I'm afraid registers a bunch of dogs that have about as much right being called an APBT as a German Shepard does.All the short,stocky dogs are totally different than an athletic gamebred dog.It's like comparing apples and oranges.I think the increase in blue dog and bullies and stuff similar to them(whatever the owner chooses to name them) being registered with ADBA is enough to sway the statistics.I have never seen nearly 1 out of 4 gamebred dogs with health problems like that.That's a amazingly high number.

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

I think it might also be because you *can't* see it. I had the pleasure of living with a huge, drivey, crazy American Bulldog that never showed a reaction to pain. He was... erm, intense. We ran about in the morning, I played fetch with him and with a flirt pole or tug every afternoon for about 40 minutes and then a mile or two brisk walk at night before bed; in addition to training classes and other outings, and he was still batsh!t and ready for more.

He had his knee x-rayed and while he was there they did his hips, and what do you know-- he wasn't even 3 years old and the vet showed me how bad his hips looked. I would NEVER have known if I hadn't seen an x-ray. No way. His gusto (one might call it piss and vinegar) certainly covered up any discomfort he was feeling.

I guess it's the same with heart murmurs-- unless it's severe when the dog is young, people probably don't notice it, and attribute the dog's lack of fitness when older to being, well, older. But an 8 year old dog isn't old, these guys should hopefully be healthy enough to stay put together until they're like 12 or 13, since they aren't a large breed. At least I hope mine lives comfortably 'til then.

Either way, I guess, nobody would know, unless the dog gets x-rayed or echo'd.... I just don't understand why some people, not in this thread but just in general in this breed, are so vehemently and vocally "ANTI;" it's just information, y'know?

I strongly doubt that many AmBully breeders are health testing their stock. Most of these breeders I've seen or met at least locally, can't spell their breed's name or accurately identify their dog's coloring, and I have never met a single one that knew what CERF or OFA or PennHIP was. Bad breeders are obviously NOT limited to AmBullies, but that's where most of the ignoramuses are focusing their attention right now (to the detriment of the animals).

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

Most of the great lines we talk about were developed/founded in a time before matching dogs became illegal. In a time when dogs were publicly matched fifteen, twenty, twenty-five times it was perhaps a lot more likely that fluttering hearts, quirky elbows, and weak hips would show themselves. When we consider the actual working life of a more modern game dog, with the three, maybe five-then out to stud; a lot of things can and do get missed. Things aren't the way they used to be, and can never be again. So, we can choose to look out and say it's the purple/show/whatever dogs skewing the numbers, or look in and realize that there are some modern tools out there that can aid us as we strive to breed better dogs. Depending on the size of the population, every breed reaches a tipping point where accumulated problems, defects become too obvious to ignore or deny. Especially in situations where keeping ones business to oneself is paramount, people may not have the opportunity to get together and compare notes about prolems, as it were. But, just because problems are not discussed, does not mean they do not exist.

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

It shouldn't matter.. Inferior animals should be culled.

 

Re: Bloodlines, Breeding, Genetics... "What they breed for, and how"

every one I ever got dogs from have their old timers out there still and they look healthy one of them passed at 17...was blind towards the end but hay thats like 120 in human yrs lol.