black angel dogs

I knew didnt "work out" where Tom first sent him, I didnt know if things had changed or not when he made his way out west.

 

I know how you do bro I'd never ask you to post one.. I think I got a clue which one, well it's one of 2 either I think would have been great..

 

One of the first things I believed when I got into dogs was, "the tighter the blood, the better the dog." That belief cost me alot of money, and time before I realized the truth. Funny thing looking back on it. some of the "supposed" legends in the dog world had no problem letting me believe that crap, and a few even profited very well.
I understand that now days, more than ever, the new doggers are almost tripping over themselves in their rush to throw absurd sums of money to buy a pup that is quadruple bred on a dogs that did produce years ago. And in that statement lies the quandary. If those quadruple bred dogs are winning, how is that? I'll let that cat out of the bag for you newer doggers, some breeders are selling pups out of proven stock and slapping the fake quadruple bred pedigree on the pups, just so they can sell them. Whats the worse that can happen to the breeder, as long as the puppies with the bullshit pedigree shows good, no one really complains because the buyer got what they wanted. So, is it wrong to sell good pups with hung papers, or to sell the real quadruple bred pups that most likely not be worth a rats ass in the box, if it starts at all?

 

Bro just because a dog isn't crossed up a million times don't mean the dog isnt better.. A lot of inbred dogs been whipping tail for years.. It's about who bred the dog and why.. Junk comes inbred or crossed it.. I more so lean to who us breeding it more than how its bred.. Two guys could start out with kittermatez then be totally different in 2 generations.. Best crossed dogs I seen were off 2 inbred dogs..

 

Chivo truly went against the rule of "super tight bred dogs cant compete." There are exceptions to every rule, but I would caution the new doggers to not try and copy that breeding tactic and expect to get legit winners. If you have a big yard, and LOTS of time, try to apply breeding philosophy and see for yourself.

 

Never said it had to be crossed up a million times, but when you see father, son, father, son, father, son father,son as the only males for four generations AND the females are down from the same father, its probably either not going to compete, have 3 eyes, or 5 paws. If it has perfect confirmation and is a world beater something is WRONG!
My favorite bitch that I owned was 164 times Blind Billy in 10 generations LINE BRED though, not in bred. Some of the better known dogs have been from crossed tight bred lines.

 

I have no proof just my opinion, but I do not believe chivo and midnight cowboy are as closely related as the paper says. Chivo looks alot like the Stu Fowler dog in my eyes. Sure enough I could be wrong, but the change in pedigrees would explain why the r-gang inbreeding worked. Eli crossed with Ed C's stuff the recipe!!! Take a look at Stu's pic and tell me he isn't the sire of Chivo. I will then tell you that you are too blind to see.

 

When you come to realize that the legendary dogman that you believe has been helping you and showing you the way not only as a mentor, but also as a friend, is really a piece of crap, it sucks.

 

I gave up on the boards 10 years ago, because everyone was an "expert", but in reality the boards back then were nothing but arguing and bashing. Seems like the boards have calmed down some these days. So benthere, if you understand what I'm saying about breeding so tight, and even spoken against it too, I would hazard to say that you're handle is correct! I'm going to hang out on this board for a little while, or until I get banned for telling the truth lol.

 

What about something bred like this, the dog in the pedigree is not in question but how the pedigree is lined up. I have noticed these types of breedings to have some success while still having enough genetic variability to sustain. A father X daughter breeding on the bottom side bred into a half bro sis breeding, would this be too tight in your opinions?

 

I would do a brother to sister or a father to daughter or son to mother to get a certain trate or in order to preserve the line. When looking at a line ready to fade away it's kind hard not to , if they proven worthy why not? I understand that at you got to bread to improve but when something is that good why not I'll run that into another line and improve it again

 

Iceoick I agree 100% I don't like full bro x Sis breedings either.. I prefer half siblings over father son.. People tend to believe if they breed that junk bitch back to her good father they will have litter of good ones because it's inbred.. I'm not one of those, I personally believe a good breeding program starts with a good bitch first.. People think more times they see a dog more chances is the dog will become that legendary dog.. Was taught king time ago not to chase dead things you will never catch it and you will realize that when you are dead lol.. I think breeding should be left to breeders as well.. Most can't raise a dog to adulthood but feel like they no recipe to be the next carver..

 

Sorry here is the ped I meant to attach to the comment....http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=169

 

Finkle no that is not too tight in my opinion and it proved it wasn't look at what was produced..

 

I think I said it in this thread before, brother x half sister breedings have proven to work, and fairly well in my opinion. My problem in this thread is if you took 2 littermates off that brother x half sister breeding that you posted, and bred them, thats to tight for the box, confirmation, or anything other than possibly breeding that super tight pup to a completely unrelated line.. The tighter you breed, all the crap that is in all dogs genetics starts showing up more often.
I'll give you an example. I had a very good dog that was off a brother x half sister breeding (we will call him Z to make this easy to follow.) Z's grand-mother was the same on both sides bred to different males that created Z's parents. Z's grand-mother was triple bred on a well known, but hard to find Carver dog. I bred Z to a good tight bred honeybunch dog, took the best daughter out of that and bred it back to Z. The main reason I did that was because Z' grand-mothers blood is hard to find, and I believed there was enough out to make the breeding. The result; a litter of 5 pups and something that resembled a sack full of bone and soft tissue. Of the 5 pups, 1 female matured into a small female (35-40 cw) with the head of a 50 pound male. If that wasnt enough for her, when you looked in her eyes you could tell she wasnt right in the head. In short, she literally looked retarded and if there was an IQ test for dogs, she would have tested in the "well below average" range, and she was cold. One male did have above average ability, but lacked what I was wanting to preserve, the mouth.
So, when I see a super tight pedigree, my first thought is WOW that looks great! Then after I think for a second or two, the reality of the dogs pedigree hits me. poor dog, it wasnt his fault he was bred so tight.

 

Couldnt have said it better! When I first got into dogs I thought if one great dog (say Zebo) littered my pups pedigree, my pup should grow up and be the next Zebo! Sad to say, it isnt so...

 

How true is it that Ickis was brought back from the dead twice? I have heard outlandish stories of the dog, and was always curious as to what became of him.
j

 

I agree with most on here about brother X sister breeding...I have a thread on here about this that I made last year...but their are exceptions!!..I feel it can be done but from seasoned dogmen that kno about breeding!!....I do believe u will less box dogs when inbreeding full bro X sis