stompanato

Limey, you are a stand up guy for telling the truth about Mr, Hammonds and I for one can second your admiration for the man and his ability and dedication to producing 1st class dogs. I have also used this line for thirty years and can say that the dogs I got from him by far are the best I have ever owned. I still use the blood I got from him years ago as well and have found that nothing else compares or suits me as well as the dogs down from those dogs.

Again I must also second your last statement regarding the Pepsi generation. I can remember as a you man traveling across the country and identify dogs on other dogmen's yard simply by the way they looked. It was easy back then as the dogs were all family bred. I have even identified dogs by their appearance better that the owners understood them to be bred. Nowadays the the US is full of a bunch of scatterbred dogs bred by folks who don't have a clue breeding. They seem to not even understand the concept or value of keeping a line clean. It IS a damn shame, I agree....

 

Guys thanks you for understanding my posts...
it meens you yourself are a step ahead of the Pepsi cola generation. so there is stil hope for this breed when famelies of dogs are manintianed the right way.
As for boudraux dogs they are toughf hard dogs BUT like ANY other famely you got to learn to know them first.
famelies have a sirtin way they need to be raisend bred schooled and lookt at ,to be able to perform in the varius ways in witch they can be used. wherether they are used in showing, catsh dogs ore performance dogs...
often rookies ore the modern pepsi boys ore just plain stupid people, buy dogs and aprotch them the wrong way.
its needless to say they dont work out for them.
you see alot of these people shift from one famely of dogs to another witchs in itself is no problem as you need to have a stroke of luck as wel.
BUT often people whant to have instand sucses!! . and dont feel like investing in the build up.
this is where the diferense is between a good dogman and a great dogman ore sombody who should go and find another thing to do fool around with..

its obvius that a sirtin caracter of a man wil sute a sirtin type of dog from a particulair famely .
Seleting the right famely of dogs that sutes you is the first importend step to do.
I for instens have NEVER jumpt on the populair band wagon!! when a sirtin famely had its era of fame, thats not how the cooky crumbles in my book ore the road to sucses .
I would in these days and era never toutch ore get a Gardner frisco dog, just like i would never toutch ore get a Jeep dog in the mid to late 80,s. ore a Mayday dog in the 90,s cause every swimming dick in the field had them.(HENSH the rezen we are not in the selling bisenis).
I would take a chanse on a Carl mims bred moses ore grch gabe bred dog from his hands to use it as a aczample, those 3 way croses have been formed to a outstanding famely of dogs.Ii like the fact that some of the most gamest individuals of dogs known for producing ecstreem game individuals like red boy snooty king solomon who where used to set this line up, one of these dogs is almost forgotten and i cant find his name being mentiond on forums to often. This dog was "" Ulsetons King Solomon"" some of the older dog man umongst us remember him as a dog that was known as one of the gamest that ever lived.. There are a desend amound of good small famelies around if you take the time to look for them!!!!!! this is where its at . dogs from people who bred for there own and sell a couple from time to time.
my advice dont buy from people wo have 4 to 5 diferend names in a 3 /4 /5 generation pedegree. Dont buy from breeders who are cashing in today!!!!!!! spreading a blue zillion of the same.
and defenatlt dont buy dogs from people who rant on trying to be all big and bad and try to have verbal internet discussions with some of the better known namess out there to boost up there own ego and dont know what the hell they are on about.....

 

ps forgot to put Bolio umongst them in the build up of the mims line

 

limey, i have respected your views and old school traditions since the 90s when i was in high school! (wish i could have gotten one of your 90s dogs! i rooted for you guys like you were my favorite football team lol.) your unique outlook on breeding has opened my eyes.. breeding for performance and physical traits to keep and tighten a line rather than how many times a dogs name shows up in the ped??? GENIUS! your black dogs of today, that i have seen on the net, look like clones of your dogs of 10+ years ago! keep up the good work

 

C_note its not genius but comon sense!!!!..
If we breed for a sirtin dog ,Then its ignorense to belive that if we stick enougf times the name of A particulair dog in a pedegree that we automaticly get this dogs gene pool!!. NOTHING COUL BE FUERTHER FROM THE TRUTH.. its a practis being done bij the ignorend people.
we used to call it pedegree staking, ore breeding the pure trap!!!.
people dont seem to realize that with this way of breeding you are actualy breeding and purefing the dogs prior to the dog you breed for!!. and ore alouw other gene pools to come forward...
Hensh you NEED to select on the type color of dog your breeding for.

If you practis this kind of breeding then you often dont need as mutch names of that particulair individual in your pedegree to get a Purebred dog.

Genes dont know anything about pedegrees nor can they think!!!!! they are just there and show up . Its up to the breeder to be able to isolate them.
Its the person who fools around with these genes who can stear the outcome to some ecstend.
therfor Its up to that person to be ABLE to hold ore lock on to that type and carasteristics ore gene pool he is breeding for. .

The biggest aczample of failier are the Mayfield dogs they talk about diferend types and gene pools inside the purest staked pure trap breedings ever known to man.
Its based on the Nigger dog BUT there is no NIGGER TROWBACK in ANY of them.
infact they bred NIGGER compleatly out of that famely of dogs!!!!!!!! YET he is the most comon dog in there pedegrees.

These people litterly FELL in the PURE TRAP. and live in a world of there own.. This is the most ecstream aczample i know where it compleatly whent the wrong way. but you see it hapening with many people breeding dogs of varius bloodlines from diferend famelies of dogs today. .
Lots of these people actualy belive that a pedegree detirmins a the dogs make up. witch ofcours insend the case UNLESS your able to produce a dog that REPREZENTS that pedegree. this thussend only means performance ore stijl alone BUT type and coloration as wel.. to be able to get as close as you can get for the dog your breeding for..

 

@ Limey, As I remember, both you and Mr. Hammonds are running the Aligator family of dogs. Now this is down from Mr Mayfield's dogs. Or should I say from Earl Tudor's dogs. Can you tell me what influence the Henry dogs have on the Earl dogs and to what extend will you cross Jocko and Termite dogs into your dogs? Also, what are the Henry dogs known for. It is said that Mr. Tudor used Henry dogs to cross into his stock, but never really listed them as such. It is said that most of the old Tudor dogs were redish buckskin and the sudden change in colour to black dogs, was due to the inluence of the Henry line. Seeing that the Aligator line is mostly black, do you consider them Tudor or Henry dogs? Do you think Redboy makes Mayfield dogs better, or do you prefer to cross the Patrick line if you consider crossing your line? We all know know the outcomes when Jeep/Redboy and Jocko were crossed and also accepted it as a line all together, so if crossed back to Aligator what would the expectations for such dogs be according to style and ability? I am asking these questions for a certain reason. I have recently done a mating that includes Aligator/Bolio/Redboy/Jeep/Jocko and Termite. I have my expectations and would just like to hear what you would expect from such a cross. That is if you can call it a cross, because all these lines have been working together for a long time now, with the exception of Aligator being added.

 

Ok Kelbone. first of about 11 years ago i put out a articel called the pelican brief. it was based on thinking out loud, no proof and no facts just coinsedenses that can make a man wonder and ore think in a sirtin direction. about the black stuff. Danny burton said and claimed that the Henry dogs where big headed black dogs witch red eyes that where crazy to fight!, and NOBODY knew where they came from.
We also know that Earl tudor had henry dogs way in the past dogs like black jack and sutch. its my belive these are not the dogs Burton refears to as black jack was a dark dog with i belive white and iven brindle!!.
a very long time ago in the eurly 80,s of the previus century. Scotty Nelson was living at my then mentors place for 3 months in the UK . ofcours this man,s brain was pickt very wel . he said that Earl Tudor imported Black dogs from the UK uptil the late 40,s!!! early 50,s!!... we all know SBT and AM stafs where oficialy reconised as a breed in the late 30,s around 1935. this thussend mean that they lost there quality overnight they where both still pit bulls.and many a breeder including corvino advertized his dogs as am stafs and pitbulls at the same time and many a breder had a dual register on them.

Tudor also told Burton when young That The first thing he needed to learn as a dogman is HOW TO CHEAT!!!!. Burton also stated that this was not how he was ,but it gose to mention how Tudor and other breeders of the day tought!!!.
going tru history books of the past you dont come across a lot of black dogs!!. and around the late 50/60s they start to pop up with a ecsplosion of black super dogs in a time span of wat 15/20 years( i belive Nigger was the first one that came of tudors yard..) they where bred out of Red dibo dogs who have there back ground to mainly white fawn brindle blood mainly Colby dogs. blind billy was what a red buckskin!!??. al of a sudden Eli cam along. ecetera ecetera. anyway the story is known. I consider these dogs tudor Dibo/henry dogs but labeld as Tudor dibo dogs. the truth wil never come out the suspition is with what we are left with....

the world is full of suspition and rumours just like the rumour that popt up back in the late 80,s eurly 90,s that Pat Patrick used Red boy dogs in his Bolio tombstone breeding program................(witchs he ecsperimented with,( read stifel stijl topic static)............ as lots of them lookt alike and when crossed could show eather way.
its been said that that Red boy blood is stil very mutch presend in his blood...
In those days some breeders used what workt and sometimes dogs who themselfs quit produced a very high nr of real deep game dogs it was all to ez to make a breeding and change the ped and pretend it never happend....CH Termite is one of them!! i used to have a magazine with a articel, that said he was a compleatly diferend trowback to what his ped made out .later it was claimed that he was a cross with Eli blood!!...


we just got a our first Red boy type of cross tru Burns stumpy blood . made bij a very good frind of mine. these dogs look ecseptional talented from a very eurly age. BUT there trow back is very od to sai the least and NOT representitif to our dogs!! nor the redboy stumpy side!!!!.
A very good frind of mine made that cross with our blood with a tightbred burns stumpy bitch with some termite blood http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=204967 to our male http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=326352 altho heavy inbred on alligator and nelis rom and ch spike, he got what we call a Fox trowback tru Tug Rom. yet he caries the type and strenght and way we normaly get in the black stuf...
but get this. the litter was very big i belive 9.
3 where reds.
6 of them where brindle!!???? where the hell did that came from!!. sure there mother is a red with a very light brindle.
But these 6 are totaly A tipicel and behave like a bunsh of crazy inbreds!!. some of them are slightly undershot. we do have a desend amound of hammonds rufus blood"" way"" back in the pedegree from who we know was a dark brindle, some of The Hammonds rufus dogs and later ofspring came and comes in the same type of lighter brindle. what ever it is ore where it comes from it seems to work.. but its new to us and we are a bit puzzeld about it.. here are a couple of those stinkers when they where young
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for your question if Red Boy blood would make Nigger blood beter . wel i belive every wel bred game bred famely improves mayfield Nigger blood, but at the same time i consider it a weakening of the blood that is used to improve the mayfield blood!!!. my question is why would you try to upgrade and elevate the mayfield nigger blood from the grave, for nostalgic rezens??. i would stay away of it as far as posible if you can. your gonna spend and invest a lot fo time blood swet and tears in a lost cause...

As for the alligator crosses ,I havend seen a REAL Red Boy x Alligator cross yet, but it should be intresting. I kinda have a feeling you could end up with some real dept in them. IF they are from hard core REAL stok. and not just from a flim flam runn of the mill pair of dogs with 50 x alligator ore red boy..

I resendly have educated myself a bit in the red boy type of blood and from what im hearing it seems that the crosses always seem to be the beter dogs. the purer ones you can compear with the tightness of the mayfield dog and they do seem to lent themselfs to be bred awfull tight without loosing to mutch virtility and stuctual frame work and ore confermation. there is however one major diference and that is that they are game bred!!!!!. and the mayfield nigger dogs are not!!!.
Planning on uesing 4 diferend bloodlines is very difeculd sure you end up with a shit load of hybrid viger, but there wil be no uniform type of dog in there and ore litters wil show up varius trowbacks to the famelies involved. i would use 2 famelys and take it from there.

 

Planning on uesing 4 diferend bloodlines is very difeculd sure you end up with a shit load of hybrid viger, but there wil be no uniform type of dog in there and ore litters wil show up varius trowbacks to the famelies involved. i would use 2 famelys and take it from there.

I agree with you, but unfortunately in South Africa we do not have many clean bred dogs. The cleanest are the Frisco and recently imported Stonewall dogs. The so called Yellow dogs are crossed with Bullyson and Saloon. We have one clean bred Aligator dog and then a cross of Aligator/Redboy/Jeep/Termite. The Bolio is crossed with Eli through Miss Shorty and then there is also Bolio crossed with Redboy/Jocko/Termite. No clean streams of blood, because all the breeders in SA has always been what you call the Pespi generation. The new craze is hybrid crosses. I guess I can also be labled as one of those Pepsi generation.

It so hard. People in the dogs and also the dog game as a whole is just not what it was in the past.

 

Kelbone i can only confirm what your last lines in your posts say..
I do know i have send a Magic X ch Candy male over there called Bob around 8 ore 10 years ago. He was as pure as Alligator as you can get. i belive. and i do know that some supurb bred carver dogs of the past where send over to SA in the 1970,s.
. i dont know what i left of these dogs.
IF you problem is wat you discibed then i sirguest you try to import some blood stock!! and go from there..
ore you start off by seperating the individual type of trowback dogs in the litters you breed witch are build up out of these varius bloodlines and consider them ""non"" familier. make sure you get as mutch info on the dogs in these pedegrees the way they look act color type sorting intelegens ecetera ecetera.
put types together in the yard, if thats posible. and breed type on type reguardless of pedegree, and selected the right way. this way you are able to reduce genetic variation and are able to kinda purifying the dogs to a sirtin direction.. ore varius directions splitting the genes if you like.. your future pedergee will be steeled and hardend in the{} at the same time your creating a famely(s) on in its own . however This can and wil can take lots of generations and lots of years of input......

 

Thanks Limey. Yes I know Bob. A few interesting breedings was made with him.

You know, one is never to old to learn. Thank you for your input. I wish there were more old time dogmen like you that are willing to learn.

 

You know, one is never to old to learn. Thank you for your input. I wish there were more old time dogmen like you that are willing to learn.

Sorry, I meant to say. Many old time dogmen like you that is willing to teach. Sorry about that, I typed abit to fast and did not read brfore I posted.

 

Thats ok lol aprisiate it.
. i like to apologize to the topic starter we wanderd of and kinda highjackt the topic!!!...

 

Good looking dogs Limey, would you happened to have the full article on the " pelican brief " story, I read a short version that I found in cyberspace.

 

wel it was on my old pc witch crashed.. But im sure it floats around in sybers space somewhere......

 

gabe and gabe jr. were ch's not grch's . yes they got papered like that but . when you count rolls as matches you can be anything .

 

http://www.game-dog.com/showthread.php?t=38835&highlight=pelican+brief

 

And someone should seriously help you write that book Limey!

 

Hi Limey, I was on holiday and is back behind my pc now. I would like to post a question with you using only the black dogs to get the traits of the original stud/producer of your line of dogs. Here's my question: "What was your thinking when using dogs like Limey's Fox & Red Bull in your breeding programme?"

NB: It's 1:03 am in SA so I might be reading your response only tomorrow (later today), but looking forward with much anticipation to your response.

 

The Saint: (read pelican brief) Back then,, we have always maintained 25% of the red Fox trow backs in our blood for the simple rezen that it was the Tug rom blood(fox) that gave us so mutch in our blood. we lost a little mouth and strenght on averitch at first, but but we gained so mutch abilety stamina and brains back for it not to mention a 75% producing rate!!!! witch ment that at least 7 out of 10 dogs made the grade.
Tug produced something like 23 pups when bred to Nelis rom twice and ones to ch Spike .19 ore 20 where shown!!!..
the pure 75% alligator x25% bully/eli blood prior to Tug where very roughf hard dogs game as wel but they never knew how to pace themselfs and lackt a bit of stile they where kinda static dogs but they where very good at what they could do... they would never work around a problem but always tried to go straight tru the problem..
Fire fox was probely the most intelegend animal we have ever seen, this bitch could plan ahead! and afther al these years she still gives me goose bumbs, iven today . she was a world class chess player. she was ofendsife and defendsif at the same time!!!! she simply KNEW what the other animal was going to do!! in advands.
i hounestly belive there wassend a animal in the world that could top her.. she proved that bij meeting a animal 3 lbs bigger and this animal done away with GRCH candy(the one bred to grch buster brouwn) in 11 min!! and later beat the late Samart and FWK,s Peticoat.. needless to say Fire Fox never got a nother show afther her display.. she was bred to the gamest dog we ever had her brother Terror to produce Red Bull... Fire fox and her littermate sister Bad bully ( a black) where a cut above the rest. dogs from a later repeat breedings as wel.bad bully had the same stile but she was like the old stuf she whent tru things!! both Fire fox and bad bully when bred To Terror produced dogs like Magic and Red Bull who are defenatly super producers and outstanding dogs Magic was considerd the best ever from this famely (my opinion) Red bull is the only one alive at 11 ore 12 years old and he is stil producing and hopfully we(my frinds and pardners at serius kennels who carry the flag pole today) get a litter of off him soon.(non for sale no offers no deals)
Having said al this dogs like Magic and Red Bull where considerd the end of the Line as they where the best, but inbred difisiendsy was showing tru a bit as a warning signal.
Red Bull had one testicel witch was COMON umongst the eurly tight bred ch spike ofspring who proved to be dogs that could not produce for very long and ore bitches that only gave birth at a younger age..
Magic altho considerd the best ever, died age 7 due to foot pad canser witchs produced a cronicel open wounds witch made us diside to put him to sleep .
these signs where there to tell us to cross out with these individuals. dogs like CH Candy(Tonka x redbaron heavy alligator tru Susan Renee Alligators sister) and grch midnight blood and nigerino blood and resendly burns stumpy blood was used.
ofcours these crosses gave us dogs with diferend trowbacks. The candy dogs where the beter ones and closest to our own. the midnight cross is a good second. the Nigerino croses played out altho they did produce some good ones this bitch was probely the best one we send her upstate usa http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=266264 . the verdict on the Burns stumpy red boy Jocko dogs is still out. the very hard task in reducing genetic variation and get back to the type,s and coloration needed to keep ore get back identety is now and the main goal. witch wil take some generations to acomplishe.. so plenty of playground for my frinds to fool around with for another 10/20 years.

 

South Africa!

Aren´t these dogs straight down from what Bensch imported back then?