black angel dogs

Plain and simple...if you start losing those traits you need to compete then it's probably too tight. Bro/sis can be done and has been done with success. I would only do it if one of the parents were not accessible. Take a "SOLID" bitch to as many solid producing (not neccesarily performing) studs as possible from similar and crossed lines. Then run them together culling hard to get the consistency you're looking for.

 

Ickis had great care and was thought to be dead but they worked him back to life..

 

My best friend Had a son of bullet, that Mf couldn't box a lick!
But He honestly thought he was always winning
But defiantly was always losing!!! That screaming Mf go bullet!!!!

 

I thought by inbreeding you can clean a gene pool of undesirable traits, of course, first you need a dog that is the complete package and doesnt need anything to be added. But this means you'll get many dogs with undesirable traits as well, so by being very selective the few that make the cut, are the essence of that family with no faults and worth his weight in gold!

In my opinion, i rather get good dogs with faults hidden, than many mediocre dogs and few perfect dogs. Just because i dont have the room or time to deal with all the culls. So linebreed seems to be the best option for this, with outcross the variablity in gene pool might go up and you end the same % culls in few generations as if you did inbreeding.

 

I believe so, but hidden traits are so, hidden, so if you breed to dogs with same traits, but that have different no-viewable (sp) traits, the variability is wider. But as i said, i would rather linebreed... with dogs that are known for this traits, and their family are known too for this than inbreed in a individual.

Lets say, you and me have the same standard or pretty much the same. You breed eli dogs for generations and i do the same, we both know what is good, and what is not good and we have succed in our respective breeding programs. If we merge, that would in theory, result in some badass eli dogs eventho you have used different dogs than mine but with the same background.

Sorry if my english is not clear, hard to explain in this case for me hehe.

 

I dont think that is a fair statement. The advantage to having a good bitch is that you have the option to breed her to different great dogs, but thats about the only one. I dont believe Floyd B.'s yard was based on a bitch I believe his foundation was Blind Billy for example, Eli's sire Scrub was double bred Blind Billy, and Eli's dam was off Blind Billy with the female being an out, not only making Blind Billy Eli's double grandfather, but also off a half brother x sister breeding.. James Crenshaw's yard was pretty much based of Finley's Bo, who produced when bred to just about any bitch, or Jeep himself who also produced when bred to just about anything. I know honeybunch will come up, but all I have to say is while she did produce, she should have looking at what she was stuck too, and then there was the Zebo x Honeybunch fail of a breeding. One good bitch that is never mentioned is Spook, but there again, she goes back to Blind Billy. If you have a small yard, or limited access to good dogs, start with a good female because you have more options when it comes to breeding as opposed to one or two good males. The big draw back to a female is she is limited by mother nature as to how many times she can produce.

 

JC yard wasn't pretty much Bo, his yard was of HB, as he bred her then the offspring off her, only one from Bo breeding was Jeep and he hot bred to his littermate sister but that's not how JC kept his blood.. He favored the rascal/HB dogs and the dogs he used were of "jeep/rascal with some Redboy influence.. He built his yard around HB and she produced great.. The Zebo x HB litter died young and that wasn't JC breeding so can't say what they would have done in his hands.. HB was bred to a GrCh a 1x, and 3 quitters and Ch Hurt which never produced pups.. What did them dogs produce when not bred to HB?

Nobody mention spook bc she was a bitch who ended up quitting and her fame was Bullyson, Eli Jr brendy and being grand mom to GrCh Angus.. Black
Widow, HB, Miss Spike, Missy, maloney dolly, red baby are considered some of best female producers...

 

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printablePedigree&dog_id=406350

This is my young male with 1/4 of Little Gator blood, crossed with Frisco and pure Snooty dogs.

 

I never claimed to be a Crenshaw expert, but HB's best litter was off Bo. Crenshaws Ch Charlie, Ch. Jeep, Ch. Missy and Ch. Holly. Remind me, who was HB's grand mother? How many times is Spook in Rascal's pedigree? Spook produced three of the most prolific dogs in the game, in one breeding! Oh yeah, how many times did Crenshaw breed a son back to HB? He did breed Jeep to daughters though. Now, if you pull out great dogs pedigrees, you will see HB alot, but everytime you do, theres Bullyson and Spook. On the other hand, look at how many dogs that dont have HB, but have the three you mentioned off Spook, and two of the three are males! Who was Crenshaws best producing male? At best, you can say it was the combination of Bo and HB.
But this post really isnt about which bitch produced better, its whats more important, a great male or great female. If you have a small yard, get a really good female and breed to great males. You may get one litter a year, then you have to wait 2 years to look at the offspring to see how it works. Applying that theory, 1 litter a year from age 3 to 10 would equal 35 offspring to raise, then cull, and thats barring variables such as the bitch being a puppy eater, bad mother, complications with pregnancy (which could end her breeding career), or nothing worth a crap within a reasonable distance to stick her too. Apply that same breeding theory to having one Great male on your yard, and say 10 good (I mean tested) females,) and you have increased your odds of getting another great dog 10 fold.
Long story short, there are reasons most of the lines are referred to by a male dogs name (Eli, Redboy, Yellow, Jeep, Virgil, Zebo, and on and on and on.) HB is about the only bitch you see referred to as a line, and how is her top side bred again? There is one prolific breeder still selling pups these days that seem to compete, and when people go there they are usually looking for something off Chinaman, not his dam.
Wait a minute, did I read it right where you said "Only one off Bo breeding was Jeep?" You know better than that. The greatest dog to come off Crenshaws yard IMO was Gr Ch Black Jack, whose top side was Jeep 3 times in 4 generations.

 

Oh yeah, I'll be damned. if you get a Chinaman dog, theres that damn worthless Spook in her pedigree (without HB)

 

One last thing with your Rascal dogs. best thing he produced was Gr Ch Pedro 9xw. Pull that pedigree up, damn it theres that worthless Spook again. Four times in the bottom side alone. Honeybunch, once.

 

I didn't say you claimed to be an expert, but what you did do was say
what JC bred around and said it was Bo, which I just was letting you
know that it wasn't.. I spoke to JC several times back in the day and I
know he didn't breed around Ch Bo by no means.. You believe that was her
best litter and that's fair to say, some might say her very first litter
was the best, some might say the litter off Rascal is the best it all
depends on your flavor. I think they all were good litters and did a job
well done.. Charlie quit and so did Missy.. Jeep & Holly were bonafide..
Also JC didn't breed Jeep to his daughters because, He did not own Jeep.
Jeep was Garrett's dog and he is the one who did the breeding. JC C&H
Jeep.. So Garret was the one responsible for breeding Jeep and he bred
him to his daughters as well as his littermate sisters as well as half
sisters. When I asked JG did they ever think of breeding Jeep back to
HB, he said it may have crossed their mind but it was never a plan and
it wasn't something they had practiced previous to Jeep and history
shows they didn't after Jeep or HB.. Who was JC's best producing dog I
believe Blackjack was his greatest producing dog, simply because he
didn't own Jeep.  

What I find interesting is how 2 pages ago you talked about inbreeding
and how it was this and that and wasn't successful and don't like seeing
how many times a dog is in a ped but you mentioned spook being rascal
and the next dog's ped 4x or whatever amount. So either you don't agree
with tight breeding or you do.. And before you give all of HB credit to
Spook being her grand mom please don't forget that HB mother was Double
Granddaughter of Black Widow, a bitch people believe is greatest
producing bitch of all time. And she is behind more than just Jeep and a
few other dogs..

The reason people assign names to lines behind the males is easy, it's
normally the male that is in there multiple times.. Funny tho, I still
here older folks call Boomerang dogs "Pistol x Miss Spike" I still here
people call dogs that jeep x half sisters "Honeybunch bred dogs" think
bout it most people still call them Jeep x Honeybunch.. What people call
dogs and who is the oil behind the machine is two different worlds..
Think this for one second, people will always stud out their best dog or
best producing stud, but they will never let you get a pup off their
best female will they? Nope they will not.. So that to me shows how
important the female is.. Maloney Dolly, Art's Missy, Miss Spike, Red
Baby, Black Widow, Molly, Hworth Dolly, Marlowe's Fanny are dogs if you
could you would want something off of, Chinaman was bred and produced
300 offspring and 5-7 made Ch, while HB produced like 60 offspring and
about 12+ made Ch.. Hmm, Black Widow is behind almost as many good dogs
as any dog around.. But like I said, any man might open up his best
producing dog to the public for stud or for a price but no price could
get a pup or a litter off his best producing gyp..

Please tell me where I said only one off Bo x HB was Jeep? Maybe I said
good producer was off them two was Jeep.. I know a lot about those HB
hounds and so on.. You say the greatest dog off his yard was Blackjack
and that's a good pick but many folks have seen him and think otherwise,
I don't deny he was a great dog but I don't think he was anywhere close
to as great as Jeep.. Jeep beat 3 Ch's and a 2x and never was accused of
ducking or beating a dog that already quit.. He went into some of the
best at that weight class during his time and only show that wasn't done
was GrCh Angus and it wasn't because of Jeep the show didn't happen

 

Oh yeah, heres where I got the statement about Jeep

Re: black angel dogs
JC yard wasn't pretty much Bo, his yard was of HB, as he bred her then the offspring off her, only one from Bo breeding was Jeep and he hot bred to his littermate sister but that's not how JC kept his blood..

That was copied and pasted, I figured I mis-read it, but you know what they say about assuming!

 

Yea I was referring to Jeep producing as being the only one from that litter not saying he was only Ch.. My apologies for not being clear..

 

i comprehend you bro, not the smartest but i dont believe im the dumbest
either hahaha.. but to be honest i dont put much trust in men and there
are only a handful of men that i trust a bit to be honest about anything
let alone about their source of income... Competition isnt what it used
to be and where are these hounds winning at? When a bush league beats a
backyarder with half bred mutts i dont give it much thought or allow it
to hold much water. to be honest a person who is selling false peds to
me is a thief so therefore he is doing harm. If you are selling me $500
wine but then i find out you are really just switching the label with
$20 wine i was robbed of my money. A thief is a theif in my book.
Someone lying about Pedigrees is a thief to me.. if they want it tight
tell them go find it tight or pay your fee for what you have to offer..
if the breeder doesnt want his recipe for success out so that people can
breed their own good dogs then he shouldnt selll to the public. It
doesnt matter how many times you teach a person how to breed its more
than just simple breed this to that. Some have an actual gift to pick
breedings just as some have an eye for a good bulldog. if you are
selling good dogs they will always return to you so there is no reason
for you to lie and steal their money...

I give spook the credit she deserves for producing possibly the most
game changing litter of all time.. i do not knock her or discredit
her... It's not unknown knowledge that she quit, so did Bullyson, Ch Bo,
Rascal, Oso Negro and so on and so on.. She isnt the first dog that quit
and wont be the last. The best of any line is linebred, that's why it is
still that line. But Midnight Cowboy was one of the most prolific
producers of recent and they linebred his offspring and now that line is
75% junk.. I will always have an Eli dog around because that is what I
was raised up around these hounds with but I like to keep it real..

HB x Bo litter did produce 4 Chs but the reason that litter is known so
well is because not only of Jeep fame with his shows but what he
produced.There have been several litters that produced multiple Ch's,
there are litters that have 2 GrChs in same litter. Rascal x HB produced
5 chs which is 1 more than Bo x HB litter but Bo litter is known more
because of Jeep. I dont believed Bo made ROM with fewest breedings, he
was bred several times as he was sold and bred to that yard when he left
Finley.. Oz Ch Homer made ROM in 2 breedings. Bo was one of top studs of
his day and still at top of people's fav stud list. Some say the best
dog he produced was GrCh Outlaw, when bred to daughter of HB, and they
say take Jeep and give him great mouth and that is what Outlaw was.

Jeep in some opinions is one of greatest producers ever, i have argued
that he may be the Greatest dog of All Time, when you consider what he
did producing and performance wise. He beat 3 Ch's and produced 15+ Ch's
as well as 8 dogs that became ROM themselves, there is no other dog that
compares to that. People will say he was bred a bunch but so were other
dogs like Mayday, Buck, Frisco, so on and so on. he was bred40-50 times
as said by his breeder who logged Jeep's breedings. Rascal was used in a
different magnitude and was one of JC's favorites.

Annie, proved her worth, she may not have been the best combat dog to
grace the earth but she was or is better than millions of dogs that have
crossed thru collars. She won 2 shows and nobody can take away what she
produced. Little Gator was cold and she was the winner, so before we
give all of Black Angel credit to LG lets not forget she proved her
worth and was only bred to LG & Cuervo i believe and with Cuervo she
produced a CH that a lot say was even better than Black Angel and that
is Ch Surollo.

 

I love this thread....

 

It's a good one!

 

It is a good one lol

 

Well spoken, and thoughtful. My information on Bo and the ROM list was told to me by a person many believe was a dogman, but was more of a historian (truth be known,) who wrote a good book. I took him at his word and had to do with Bo making the ROM list in the fewest breedings (I dont mean total breedings, I'm referring to say third or fourth breeding?) whats funny about this is, I really dont care for Jeep blood! And, to get to the point, I'm sure you are aware (because you do seem to know a little about the dogs,) that carver was ki nd of known for selling you the cake, but not the recipe. So , HB's pedigree is in itself a question in my opinion. Whats not a question though, is she was a champion, and a producer. Thats what matters to me, the dog, not the pedigree.
When I post something on boards, I usually post it in the hopes that it will help shed some light for the new dogger that's reading the forums. Wish the forums were around to help me when I first got into dogs, but hell, that was before home PC were even around lol. I always post the truth though, no matter how unpopular the truth may be. Is breeding easy, no. Its complicated, if i t was easy so meone would have figured it out by now, and every serious dogger would just copy the perfect breeding philosophy. Different breeding philosophies, different opinions on what dogs are good/suck, and that dogman ego, are what made the dog game great. If someone has what they think is great, put it in the box with what other people consider to be great and find out the truth! When its over, split a few beers, and talk about whats next .

 

I will say this, I believe the Bo x Honeybunch breeding was the best HB, not just because of jeep, but the quality of opponents the four beat.