Breeding to a well bred cur?

gringo you stick to your guns buddy and i love that i dont disagree with you i just dont totally agree but i will say you do make some great points

 

Me too I understand what he is saying , but it is funny to me that everyone takes that shit to hart, LOL like it fucking matters what bullyson did or benny bob I sure as hell aint shooting any thing I got with them in them, hell they are the good ones lol. And Gringo Bullyson was culled after the match. Hell I heard he was done with in mins of the match and also I heard it was not from the match is why he died but that is another point and Im not ging there on a public fourm, see gringo i knew people there also Not just mayfield. so I dont give two shits what any one thinks about them. I know some of the gamest dogs to ever live were full of bullyson and to be honest I have only had a few dogs in my life where I felt 100% in my bones he would never stop and guess what they were That s right Pure midnight cowboy, so yall dont fall in that fucking trap that this dog was from a dog that stoped by Who knows what 30 years ago so that shit is currs. What ever, and it shouldnt matter what did what 30 years ago yall need to think about 30 days ago,

 

And another thing yall dont lie, If I could dig up bones and dna bully and Reproduce him Yall talking shit would line up to breed his ass just like they did back then. So hate all you want but knowing what you know now Every one of yall would stick your best bitch to him. lol

 

would you?Cause id rather have the boxer that never quits.He either gets KO'ed TKO'ed or his corner throws in the towel.There have been plenty and thats the way it should be.

 

Trip man if you dug up bullyson and recreated him I wouldn't breed shit to him. Why you may ask? Number one there are plenty of rough dogs out there who did not sit. Number two if it was possible to recreate dead dogs bully would be way, way down on the list of dogs I would recreate. All that ability ain't worth a used condom standing in the corner. Give me a staggering, crawling, lunging, pushing out the corner type all day long before one that sat out the count. Different strokes for different folks. Bullyson was not even the best of his bloodline, let alone the best stud out there. Just my opinion and that is worth maybe a stick of used chewing gum.

 

and that's when you pick him up . you guys thinking is very different than most people that wanted to win . and mag , damn there would'nt be many ch's and gr's if you wanted to say well he got beat up this time so let stop before he quits or loses . real dog are'nt made that way .

 

While my doctor example may not have been the best, it was the only thing I could think of to answer why a game dog has to show game every time and a cur only has to show it once. Truth is that I don't know why life is the way it is, I only know it's that way.

Also J, if I showed you a dog that was Bullyson but didn't tell you who it was and you didn't know, are you telling me that just based on the dogs record and what it did you would breed to it knowing it had quit in his last one? I don't think you would if you took that "Bullyson" name out of the equation and were left with only the facts (won 2 easy matches then quit and produced curs). There are a few things in the dogs that can get you in trouble, one is a runaway imagination, another is ego and the one that causes the most harm is impatience. And probably the biggest mistake a person can make is to judge a whole family of dogs by one or two of that family. And just for the record, I know of some very heavy bred Bullyson dogs south of your border that have been competing successfully since Morfin brought the family down over 70 years ago and they are some of the gamest dogs around. The same can be said about the Snooty dogs, the Little Gator dogs...etc. Hell J, I can show you a cur in MY dogs just 2 generations away and boy she was a real Bullyson type of cur only that she went into top competition and destroyed 2 of the best dogs in the country at her weight just like Bully did before she stood the line. Man, she even got awarded BIS by Cardenas!
She was the dam to my bitch and if you ask me if I am happy about her quitting of course not. Would I breed to her today, no definately not. But at the time she had taken the BIS against the best in the country so I am not ashamed about the decision to breed her because no one can know the future and based on the facts, it was an honest breeding. And let me tell you that in the one and only litter from her that includes my bitch, there were some traits that could have used improvement and some that were missing but gameness is not one of them and I count myself soooooooo lucky I still can't believe it.

J put it this way,, you visit Carver's yard with your best bitch and Bully wasn't culled he is right there on chain. You give the dogs a look over,, you see that Colby Rusty dog there that belonged to Gaboon, you see some young dogs out of Spike x Black Widow there, you see the brothers out of Dibo; Lasso, Cracker and Outlaw, you see that dead game living dog named Trahan's Rascal there,,, you telling me you would pick the only cur on the yard to breed to? really????? for some reason I just find that hard to believe lol.
*Cracker later went on to quit too. You had Williams, Fitzwater, Corvino, Ed Crenshaw, Heinzl and the Arizona dogs,,, all just a few hours away as well so let that sink in for a bit too.

 

Does anyone know if Bully son was ever looked at again or matched again after he supposedly quit? To make sure there was nothing wrong with him? I just have a hard time justifying a dog who has already proven game and shown great heart before stops once and now he's a cur and worthless POS dog all of the sudden.

 

He died after the match. How he died is one those stories that has six different versions.

 

If he was a cur the last time he was a cur the time before. He jus didn't reach his breaking point....

 

Oh ok thanks Mag ..

 

Yeah but Dream again every dog has a breaking point I truly believe that they all have limits people act like these dogs are god or something they feel pain, they bleed, they breathe, and they live and die just like people do. I just don't see these dogs as perfect robots like some of you do. If that means I am making excuses than so be it I just can't justify calling a good dog like Bully son a cur because he had a bad match when his track record prior had been very good. They are still just dogs at the end of the day they are not indestructible. To me that way of thinking is illogical and flawed. Man bred these dogs for gameness but nothing man does is perfect therefore he can't expect the dogs to be either.

 

"left with only the facts" like the fact the O'l cur dog produced midnightcowboy. the best producer of match dogs to ever look through the a collar.

 

Mag the reason there are 6 stories is because it was a 6-shooter lol.

Sadie, Bullyson was a cur, he wasn't a POS and he wasn't a complete dog. He was a rough and hard barnstormer the likes of which were never seen before, it was the beginning of the "fast lane" type of dogs. He drew more attention to himself (due to Carver) than any other dog had done up till that time attracting the young kids like a magnet. Bullyson was responsible for all the change in the game, he left his mark in the history of the breed like few others have done. He wasn't a piece of shit, he was just a cur.
We have dogs that don't make the cut and I don't consider them a POS. In fact I consider it my fault the dog doesn't possess what it takes since it was me who decided to create the dog in the first place. All our dogs give all they have for us and though some may not have what we require, they are not pieces of shit just curs and its no fault of theirs.

Ben first of all you will never really know if Midnight Cowboy is off of Bullyson, but let's assume he is. How many Midnight Cowboy's did Bullyson produce? I stated before that the ones down from Baby seemed to fare better, do you have a bitch the likes of Baby to breed to?
Ben, why would you breed to a dog that produced curs when you have dogs like Midnight Cowboy that like you said is, "the best producer of match dogs..." Also did Midnight Cowboy quit?
It doesn't make any sense to me to breed to a dog that was a cur and did not produce consistently based on the fact that in one breeding he produced one outstanding dog. The odds are that you would get dogs like Bully Jr. and Benny Bob more often than you are likely to get a Midnight Cowboy. Wouldn't it make more sense to breed to Midnight Cowboy and at least be assured that you have good odds of getting some competitive dogs from "the best producer of match dogs to ever look through a collar"? Wouldn't it make more sense to breed to the dog that wasn't a cur and produced more consistently?

If we take away the names of the dogs and the names of the breeders, take away all our blind love of some family based on our vivid imaginations and only go by a dogs record I think you would be surprised to see what dog you would pick to breed to if that choice was made based only on performance and production.

 

And thats the only reason I would even give a shit I would cull 100 dogs to get one Like I used to have from him so Yall say what you want I had them and I have seen very few that can even be looked at next to them.

 

If we take away the names of the dogs and the names of the breeders, take away all our blind love of some family based on our vivid imaginations and only go by a dogs record I think you would be surprised to see what dog you would pick to breed to if that choice was made based only on performance and production.[/QUOTE]

If that was the case gringo,(and for the record, I see the valid point you are making) there would be a lot more Yellow fans. To me personally, I think that family (when bred by honest breeders) is ahead of other families in terms of producing competitive, game dogs that produce the same consistently. I have said it before and will say it again, Travis was the best producing dog in the last 10 years if you go off percents. His numbers are off the charts. But back to bully son, I have him countless times in 2 dogs I own, and I am convinced that they are best when out crossed. Bully is so far back in the peds today, that it would be more accurate to call them reno dogs or t-bud dogs than bully son dogs. Hey gringo, how was the female bred that Cardenas gave the BIS?

 

And lets not forget about old Ch arty, OMG that FUQER he would paint the roof and stayed game when tested and gave the south (deep south) some of the best matches seen Win loose or draw, I guess I just respect match dog and I understand they can all be beat, So I love a good game hard hittin dog. And that is what they are Yall talk about dead game dogs truthfully the bullyson line and crosses to me have been some of the gamest. So Say what you may, But the dogs are winning and still strong so hate on , LOL. and yes Knowing what I KNOW I WOULD BREED BULLY OVER ANY OTHER! To MISSY LOL

 

A game dogs breaking point should be when they physically cannot, a cur is a dog who will not. When you say these dogs are machines the point is they can go into shock, or have broken limb and not be able to make it across. It has nothing to do with being in pain or knowing when they are outclassed.

 

Dream , Man I dont think alot of people know what shok is bro Likeglazed over grey still standing but nobody home lol so its a curr

 

You know TJ, I've been thinking the same thing. If the dog is not home and is clearly in shock, how can someone say the hound is a cur. I've read some of the stories, but have not spoken to anyone who was there that had a reason to be biased, but if the stories are true that Bullyson has a reduced blood count, he would from the get go be at a major disadvantage and should not have been matched.

Here is some info regarding Bullyson that is widely available. Did Don and his followers have it out for the Bullyson? I don't know and no one can verify one way or the other. Hell it was so long ago, people memories get clouded just after a year, let alone this time frame we are trying to understand/ and discuss.

If any person that says Bullyson was a cur and he/she wasn't there then they are speaking/writing on heresay. If any hound is clearly in shock, and he couldn't move does that make him a cur? If someone believes that the dog must scratch when it is in shock then they should do what ever they can to experience shock for themselves and then come back and say that the dog should have scratched.

Supposedly from Floyd:
Could you tell us the full story on the Eli dog?
I will tell you the full story on the Old Eli Dog, how he was bred, his parents, his pups and so on? I will tell you the true story as it is, and I have witnesses that that can tell you this is the truth. If this not right I’m the brother of Martin Luther King. It makes me mad that they got the story of him and his sons Bullyson and Eli Jr. turned around. Not for myself, I know better. I lived; but the future generation that is coming behind us doesn’t know anything about the truth and have to rely on what they are reading. That’s why I am so glad I can do this interview in the Times. It takes a small man to to lie and change a story, I am telling the truth about how them dogs are bred just like I always told before. Eli was a pretty good individual and after his match against Jack Smith in Cleveland I brought him home. We doctored him up and then a sheriff from Mississippi tried to buy him, but I wouldn’t sell him. Then, the next day, Raymond Holt of Texas and his wife Sharon came by to buy him, but I gave Eli to my friend Jr. Bush from Alabama. He loaned Eli to John Cotton from Chattanooga, Tennessee; they were friends at the time and that’s where somebody stole Eli. I gave Eli to Jr. because he is a real high class dogman, a good example for a lot of other so called Dogmen. When Eli got stolen, Cotton gave Jr. $1,000 and told him to go and buy another dog. He said that if there was a dog he liked that cost more, he would make up the difference. There are a lot of stories about what happened after this, when Eli got stolen from Chattanooga. I think he went from Chattanooga to Memphis, and from there on, I just don’t know for sure; but I feel that some of that bunch in Memphis had something to do with it. I just don’t know what happened with Eli but I feel very strong about this. And I wouldn’t’ say it if I didn’t believe it myself. I truly believe that Eli was the sire of that Grand Champion Zebo dog. They were too much alike not to be true. At one time I gave a nice red puppy to Jerry Clemmons; he is a friend of mine a I still think a lot of the man. He took the pup, kept him for six weeks and then sold the pups. He came here and I gave him another pup that I had here in the Blacksmith shop, I called that pup Spook. She was out a litter that killed each other when they were still very young. He kept her for about two months at the most, when she came in season for the first time he brought her back and I bred her to Eli. They had four pups; three black and one brindle, two males and two females. One of the males was Bullyson, the other was Eli Jr, and the bridle was Brendy. She bit the hardest of them all and she was the biggest; she could break a dog down in less than 3 minutes. Brendy was awesome, a Bulldog! As bad as a man has ever seen. She beat a dog one time like she was having breakfast; I’ve never seen anything like her again. The other female in the litter out of Spook and Eli was a black bitch named Lady. She was my kind of dog and I think the best in the litter. Both Bullyson and his brother Eli Jr. , was a much better producer. He was just not bred to good selected bitches, but he was definitely a better dog than Bullyson. He didn’t care if he was getting bit because he was going to bite you. Red Wallings was the owner of Bullyson when hew was matched into his son, Benny Bob. Maurice conditioned him, but he was not fit ot fight, this is wahat happened; Maurice had Bullyson and bred him to a bitch named Beth at his place. A few weeks after that, Bullyson got bit by a rattlesnake and his head was as big as a Texas hat. Also, there was this big old dog at Maurice’s place that got off the chain, and Bullyson, who was in a kennel, was fighting with this dog through the fence and messed up his teeth and gums. Just before the fight with Benny Bo b we checked his blood count and it was down to 33. Benny Bob was a bridle dog and Bullyson a black dog, the match was at 52 lbs. but Bullyson was only a 48 or 49 lb dog. The fight was reported in Pete Sparks’ Magazine and also in the book that Mayfield put out at the time; but it was not until Mayfield wrote that little book called “Rednecks” that he came out with all that nonsense about a black dog against a white dog. I think he was confused by another match between Danny Burton who had a black 54lb dog and Raymond Holt, who had a white dog called Lightening IV, who was owned by a black man named Chris. Eli Jr. was sold to Douglas Nirider when he was 17 months old for $400; he won his first match on a broken leg in Oklahoma. If Bullyson would have been in good shape against Benny Bob I think that would have been a hell of a fight. One time, I had a dog called Napoleon and I rolled him with Bullyson when he was at my place. Bullyson was an 18 lb bigger dog but Napoleon held his own for a little while. It didn’t go very long because Bullyson was coming on hard. Later I won with Napoleon in the same show when Bullyson won over that Sir dog that was handled by Bert Clouse. I remember one incident with Bullyson when he was at my place; Jerry Clemmons brought the dog to me to be tested and one day while I was cleaning up around his chain, he tried to bite me. Before he could put his mouth on me I hit him hard with a shovel and knocked him out. After this happened, he never, at my place, tried to bite anyone again; If a dog is a man biting dog, I don’t like them and if they try to bite me or my family, it’s a dead dog. Jerry had Bullyson when he was a young dog and he was sort of hyper.

More Info on Bullyson:

Bullyson was whelped sometime in the late 1960′s. He was just one of the many well thought of pups from the breeding of Eli to Spook.

At one time Floyd Boudreaux gave a nice red puppy to Jerry Clemmons. He took the pup, kept it for 6 weeks and then sold the pup. He came here and I gave him another pup I had here in the blacksmith shop. I called that pup Spook. She was out of a litter that had killed each other when they were very young. He kept her two months at most and then she came in her first season. He brought her back and I bred her to Eli. They had 4 pups, 3 black and one brindle, two males and two females. One of the black males was Bully, the other was Eli, Jr., and the brindle female was Brendy. She bit the hardest of all of them and she was the biggest. She could break a dog down in less then three minutes. Brendy was awesome, a bad bulldog; as bad as any man had ever seen. She beat a dog one time like she was eating breakfast. I’ve never seen anything like her again. The other female in the litter out of Eli and Spook was a black named Lady. She was my kind of dog and I think the best from that litter. Both Bully and his brother Eli, Jr. were exceptional Bulldogs. They were the cream of the crop, top-notch Bulldogs and went into some tough competition to make history.

When this litter was being raised on Jerry’s yard he took a special interest in Bully. Jerry walked him three miles a day and ran him 15 minutes each day on the mill. Also, while he was schooling him he had taught the dog to go where he was pointed in combat and also trained him to work with a ball. One day Bully was rolled with Boudreaux’ Napoleon and Boudreaux’ Paco, a son of Blind Billy, he smoked both of them quickly and was then bred to one of Floyd’s bitches; all this in one hour in the noon July sun. The bitch later had 13 puppies.

When Bobby Hall owned Bully he was attacked, when he walked his run. Bobby had a large mouth shovel in his hand and he went upside Bully’s head and put Bully on his backside, then was just able to get out of Bully’s run before he came to his feet and came for him again. This occurred numerous times until the last when Bobby put the shovel in one hand and held it beside him and said “Come here Son.” “Bully son come to me” and Bully then walked over to Bobby’s feet and waged his tail. Bobby said he stuck out his hand to him and he licked his hand, then Bobby walked over and shoveled up his dung. From that day Bobby changed his name from Bully to Bullyson.

When Bobby Hall matched the dog- Maurice Carver refereed, and Bullyson went into a dog owned by Bert Clouse & Becker. At weigh in Bert’s dog weighed in at 46 3/4 lbs. and Bullyson weighed in at 49 1/2 lbs. When Bobby came over the pit wall with Bullyson you knew something different was going on. This dog acted like a crazy dog or a maniac of the devil in disguise. When they turned them loose all Hell came with it. Everybody there was at attention. Clouse’s Red dog was out of it in five minutes as Bobby sent Bullyson to the scrotum of Clouse’s charge and that was the cue for the fat lady and she sang. At 10 minutes, the final scratch, Bobby could hardly contain the Bullyson in the corner. Bobby was scared the crazy son of gun was going to bite him. Bullyson was the worst kind of man-eater when conditions are normal, and they sure weren’t normal then.

Sometime later Bobby sold Bullyson to Red Walling. Mr. Walling decided that Maurice Carver was his man with his dog. Again, this dog was known to go off his rocker on several occasions when someone was moving him in a car. Despite these problems, they often hauled him loose, I think because it was too hard to put him in a sky crate. On the move from Hall’s in Houston to Carver’s place in San Antonio, Mr. Raymond Holt was elected to carry the dog. As usual Bullyson was carried loose in the car. Raymond said the only way he could keep Bullyson from jumping on him during the trip was by playing with his testicles. That’s a Helluva a deal!!! Anyway, Maurice got the dog. He was scared to death of him all the time he had him. At the time Maurice would move his wife in the other room and bring the dog in the house with him, watch TV with him and such and just become the very best of friends when a dog is in a keep. Maurice had a feeling that if he was going to the pit with a dog he wanted to be his friend. He said often, “If I am going to get down on my knees and ask a dog to take a killing for me, I want him to be a friend of mine.”

Eventually, Bullyson was matched into Ed Weaver’s Sir. Again it was the same old story; Sir was helpless in five minutes as Bullyson defeated him with the same barnstorming type style used against the Red dog. Don Mayfield made a comment right after the match that Ed Weaver should be commended for even going into Bullyson, as most people were already spooked of him.

Bullyson vs. Benny Bob was the big match of the day as there were people from all over the US, Canada and Mexico to see this event. The convention took place in Fort Worth and it was a big show. They had bleachers up around the pit and a canvas over the whole thing. It was wonderful until the bleachers collapsed and the canvas cover came crashing down during the Bullyson match. Carver conditioned and handled Bullyson and Rick Haliburton did the conditioning & handling for Benny Bob with help from Don Mayfield. Benny Bob was out of Bullyson bred to a bitch out of Boudreaux’ Boze bred to Clemmons’ Brendy. The dam of Benny Bob was known as Clemmons’ Jesse and her name was later changed to Wikerson’s Tina. The breeding of Bullyson and Jesse was done while Bullyson was still on the yard of Jerry Clemmons.

At the match, Carver made a deal to enter the pit last as he didn’t want to stay in his corner for an extended time with Bullyson. When he entered, Rick was ready, as well as the ref, who was Floyd Boudreaux. Maurice didn’t even set Bullyson all the way down he dropped him 3 inches above the floor and the match was on. Don Mayfield reported it was pretty obvious quickly that if Bullyson was going to get there today, it was not going to be a blowout. After a while, Bullyson turned. He scratched well. Then Benny Bob scratched well. After this Benny Bob started getting faster and Bullyson slower. Everything Bullyson did, Benny Bob came back and did it better. At the end, their stifles looked like you had shot them with buckshot. At forty minutes into the match Bullyson’s ass end collapsed completely and Carver offered Haliburton a scratch to win, Haliburton would not take the offer as it was not his turn to scratch. Finally, at forty-eight minutes, it was Bullyson’s turn to go. Maurice faces him. When released, Bullyson turned his head a little to the right. His tongue is out, he doesn’t move! At the end of 6, Maurice stepped over the dog and threw in the towel. He then asked Floyd to see if he could get him to go since Floyd had a part in raising him. The reason Maurice did this, I suppose was that everyone was in shock that this dog stood the line. Floyd took him, straightened his head, shook him and released him. The results were the same. His head tilted a little to the right and he stood there. After this Floyd picked up Bullyson and handed him over the pit wall to Maurice, who turned and walked off with the dog. Jerry Clemmons, who was working as a lab technician, did the blood work the day before the match said Bullyson’s blood count was at 33 when it should have been at 50. In addition, Carver bred the dog to practically every bitch he could in the Southwest.

They took Bullyson out to the field and anyone that tried to touch his ass end had him trying to bite them. He was given medical treatment, but it was to no avail. He lost control of his body and died shortly there after. This 48 minute match with his son had brought an end to Bullyson’s life.

Benny Bob went back to Willie Brown’s yard and was later matched into Ralph Greenwood’s Jimmy Boots. This was said to have been the most vicious match ever seen. Rick Haliburton and Willie Brown did the conditioning on Benny Bob and Greenwood the same for Jimmy Boots. It was said the match was like watching two grown men with icepicks and you knew it just couldn’t go any further, but that five minutes would pass and then you knew for sure it was impossible to go another five minutes. The whole match was like that because no two dogs could take that kind of punishment. After the match you could have bet that it didn’t last longer than 20 minutes, that’s how exciting it was, but it lasted nearly 2 hours with Jimmy Boots being the winner.