Breeding to a well bred cur?

I guess if that so called cur dog had made your house payments for you for several years,this same cur(name and blood) goes on to put food on your table for a decade or so and helped educate, and clothe your children plus all the fun well then maybe you would cut it a bit of slack(or maybe not)seems to have paid off for those that thought of holding on to him-old timers wanted everyone to believe in the myth of "only game dogs live or get bred",a no cur mentality-that insured you coming back for more pups/dogs(who has a ped of any dog without a cur/cold dog or questioned dog in his/her background?)enough said, these men were trying to make money. -Bullyson was a great dog, and a great name, and maybe the first of the commercialized dogs/lines-and one of the most controversial and popular(coincidence?)he/his name, has sure produced lots and lots of money for many people(not to mention many a good bulldog)-and all he gets is called a cur POS, LMAO

 

gringo these oldtimers say a lot of things like dont breed a cur but they all did and a shit ton of them also bred bitches that were never touched that was common practice by many oldtimers so think how many curs might have got bred, they all did it tudor carver, heinzl colby all of them and it certainly hurt them to much so they must have known some things that we dont.

 

there is only one acount that says bully quit and about three that say he went out game. so if none of us were there we can not say game or cur either way but if yopu want to go by the history more lean towards him being in shock then a quitter so there is your debate

 

I was told he passed as well.

 

some stories say bully quit others dont well i am more inclined to beleive mayfield first story than the second and scotty nelson is the most racist mother fucker ever so his op dont mean much

 

Show me a dog that has nothing but tested and proven dogs in its pedigree. If anyone does have one, they bought someones lie lol. Every great dog that I'm aware of has cold/cur/untested dogs somewhere in its pedigree.
Everyone can preach this "dont breed a cur" shit, but just look at your own dogs pedigree for a dose of reality.

 

Here's something for y'all to mull over: Finley's CH BO curred. Crenshaw's CH OTIS curred. Crenshaw's CH RASCAL curred. If these had not been bred to CH HONEYBUNCH, you may have never heard of them. As a matter of fact, the 1 solid game bulldog HONEYBUNCH was bred to never produced anything worth crap with her.

 

Excellent post!

This too!

 

Yes sir!! I am really getting fucking sick an tried of reading these posts some of you have no respect for these dogs and what the fuck they were bred to do you expect them to be fucking robots and if they don't perform to your liking on any given day you off them like trash and call them curs they are then worthless to you fuck the fact that they won 2-3 matches prior to everything else .... I have an overwhelming amount of respect for these dogs and what they are capable of and there is no way I could put one of mine through all that watch them get hurt and possibly die and than turn around and off them because they quit after they proved to me time and time again they were game and had what it took and produced well enough. I would do everything I could to figure out why he quit and even look at him again and if I couldn't find a medical or logical answer to him quitting or if I matched him again and he quit a second time for no reason I would retire him to the yard and let him live out the rest of his life on my yard. There is no damn way in hell I would kill an animal like bully-son. From everything I read he was a great dog and he at least deserved to live out the rest of his life on someone's yard as a stud dog. It was even advised by the vet that they not match him according to the story Ice Pick posted so that was just bad judgement on his handlers behalf he clearly was not in any condition to be matched that day and yet he was so if he quit I don't fucking blame him lol.

 

Oh yeah and like Ice Pick said go through your peds and you will see plenty of untested/cold/cur dogs rules were made and rules were certainly broken the history of these dogs have proven that time and time again. There were plenty of dogs that quit that were still bred. There were also plenty of game dogs bred to untested bitches! I have seen that several times.

 

first of all im a man i go to work in put food on my own table dont no dog does that for me i dont sale my pups i keep them this shit is just a hobby not a profession.

 

hachiman this the one i was talkin bout online ped [ 355103] killerbees brownie

 

Good logic. I go with this one!
And I am not a big fan of Bullyson, mostly because of how human aggressive he was reported to be.

 

so u tellin me that u would keep that dog that quit not once but twice on the same yard as to if u had a 7 time winner that aint never made a bad sign, never hesitated when it was his turn to go u could actually pet that cur on the head and say good boy and heres one of my best bitches to mate wit? to me that dog wouldnt deserve to get feed the same dog food as my 7 time winner let alone be on the same yard.

 

Who quit twice??? And any dog can be a 7xw like the dog you have, but we are talking fast lane here Real 7xw's in the fast lane are rare contrary to what feds on line states.

 

LOL I am done with this thread breed and cull whatever the hell if I care ... I just think these discussions are way too funny I could never base such a strong opinion about a dog I never even laid hands on none of you know what really happened so please stop throwing out numbers based on fictional stories you read online. There is plenty of reason to believe that Bullyson didn't quit based on the first match report given to us yet people still want to pop shit like they were there and saw the dog quit not once but now 2 times LOL so whatever who gives a shit it's pointless to try and debate with one track mind know it alls. I will leave it at this If I had a chance to own such a fine animal I would jump at the chance to do so and the rest of you would too so quit lying to yourselves. And most of you will never feed such a fine animal in this lifetime let's just be real that cur as you call it would put shame to most of the dogs being fed today. So peace love and happiness everyone I'm out!

 

J.D. Elliot's account
Well, it's hard because I have so many memories mixed I'm there with what people have told me and what people have said. But Bullyson sat down and did not complete his scratch. They swapped rear ends and when Bullyson was called to scratch, his rear end just went out from under him. Kind of like you see a old mule- just collapsed. He didn't go all the way down, he was holding himself up with his front legs, but he sat out the count right there.

Bennett Clayton's account
Did Maurice shoot Bullyson?
Clayton: Oh, no, that's absolutely incorrect. The dog died of the damage he took during the match.
As you remember it, how did the match end?
Clayton: The fight went 50 mins to a hour. They set him up to scratch, and his back legs went out from under him. I think I've seen dogs injured worse scratch, but I don't think he was right that day. I believe all things being equal, he could have beat Benny Bob.
*excerpts from interviews from The Truth*
When I find Nelsons take I will type it up just for you Boze.

 

I think we are getting side tracked and starting to defend "our favorite dog from history" rather than discuss what this post is about which is the breeding of a cur due to its papers. We are not talking about traveling back in time and breeding to dogs we know produced but also showed to be curs, we are dealing with the dogs today and what is available for anyone. This isn't about bloodlines or specific dogs, it's about a philosophy and understanding about the breed and how to maintain it. The problem with these dogs is that they are man-made and therefore require man in order to be maintained in its present and competitive form. Once man stops doing that by not performing a selection, the breed cannot be maintained and although it will be much like the original in looks, it will loose all that made it different than the rest of the breeds. It will loose its essence and then there will be no more gamedogs only pitbulls.
Breeding to a known cur goes against everything that made this breed and it's just plain wrong. Can a cur produce? sure it can I have seen it. Can another breed be crossed to this one and produce winners? sure it can I've seen it as well. But are these the "right" things to do for the breed and its future? no, not in my opinion they aren't. I believe that this breed was created by those that bred the game dog.
So when I post my opinion I am not defending any dog or bloodline, I am defending a philosophy about this breed and how to maintain it. I am talking about what "you and I" should do -today- in order to maintain and if we are lucky enough, to improve the dogs that have been passed down to us. No matter what your dogs name is or what bloodline he's from, the conditions are the same for all and one of them is that you just do not, ever never, breed to a known cur, period.

Ok now having said that,, I again want to stress the fact that MY dogs have curs in their pedigree and MY dogs have Bullyson in their pedigree. I didn't cull any of them that didn't give a good reason to be culled so please stop with the cull them all cuz it was a cur crap. Be reasonable, no one is going to cull anything here unless it deserves it, and it has happened that a dog was bred before it showed to be a cur and none of those offspring were culled unless they deserved it either. So let's act as if we were reasonable men/women and not monsters or loonies. In that light, we here will not ever breed to a known cur on our yard no matter what it has done. Nor will we continue to feed one. Our objective is to breed the game dog in order to have gamedogs.

Now we are human and privy to circumstance and whim so we have to accept that fact. It's very easy to get caught up in the hype and some good marketing but experience and age will help to mute some of that and allow you to see a bit more of the "truth". Most of the time this is not a pleasant experience and most don't see it through to the end, but those who do I think end up with something better than they had before. It is a painful process much like having to go to the doctor or dentist but afterwards you feel better and think it was worth it. The hardest part is taking that first step, the rest come easier. And once you do that that step, you will never look back, I promise you that.


Ok, now on to the fun stuff lol. First off I don't think anyone here is a fool or anything like that. I'm also sure yall have some good dogs sitting in your yard that anyone would be proud to feed. We all just have varying opinions on subjects and to me that is a beautiful thing, othewise there would only be one post on this board that we would all read day after day forever since we would all be the same and agree on everything lol. It's these differences in opinion that make life worth living and allow us to learn and grow by sharing them.

As far as the Bullyson match, you folks are going by what 2 oposing sides said, and even that is not accurate. I also read and listened to what the two oposing sides said but I understood that each had a very subjective view of the facts and with dogmen, if you ask 3 a question you will get 5 different answers so I managed to get my most valuable information from other sources that had nothing to do with either opponent. One of my main sources was a man who was there and saw the match. He sat high in the bleachers and had a dog named Cole's Ike named after him. The other source is one of the most honest people I have had the priveledge to have met, and he rode in the station wagon with Carver.
Now both these men told me many years ago that Bully not only quit, he tried to jump the wall Both of these men had dogs with Bullyson in their pedigree as well and they went on to breed some of the gamest dogs around. Neither of them would ever have bred to a known cur, I am absolutely positive of that.

Ok now I read Clemmon's story and it is very entertaining, I see some of Carver rubbed off on him lol. The first thing I felt was funny was the comment, "Maurice would call me and ask if I though one more breeding him would hurt him." .... so this old timer known in all the dog game and who has been matching and breeding dogs for like,, 40 years, now is calling this young kid Jerry who is fairly new to the dogs, to ask if he thinks it would be "ok" to breed him just one more time,,, a week out lmmfao!!!!!! okeydoke.....
No wait,,, it gets even better.... look at this! ,,, "He even bred him the day before the match" ,,, c'mon man,,, really?????? lmao!!!
And here comes the clincher guys.... "A week before the show, maurice bought Bullyson to the hospital that I worked at, as a labratory technition, and I did a blood count on him. His hematocrit was 33% and him lips had stitches holding them ti his gums where he had chewed out of a chain link fence" .....so this dog that was in such bad shape was being bred? and the bitches stuck??? right, sure, ok lol.
So what did Jerry finally tell ol' Red? ...."Red Walling said he wasnt going to pay forfit as I suggested and would take him to the match in an ambulance if he had to" .... Of course!!!!!!!!!! anyone in their right mind would prefer to lose twice the money, thiers and the dogs reputation and their dog as well right? lmao!!!! ,,,, dogmen.......

Finally, Sadie for someone who doesn't care you sure seem to have a strong opinion lol. That's ok though, what's not so ok is that you call a cur a "good dog" because it isn't one, it's just a good fighter and there is a difference that has to do with a breed standard and the main standard for this breed is gameness which a cur does not possess. I can understand your feelings toward a dog that has fought hard and given all it has for you and just didn't pan out, it's not the dogs fault and it's fine if you would continue to feed such an animal, just don't ever breed to it after it shows to be a cur is all I am saying. I don't have the luxury of being able to do that so I would have to cull such a dog but there is nothing wrong in not culling him if you want to keep on feeding him, just neuter the dog and make it a pet or something, whatever. But you can't say that it's a "good gamedog" because it's not. And even if you put 1000 game ones on him and he killed each and every one, they still would be more gamedog than the cur is because they did what no cur would ever do, they gave their lives showing they had the one most important trait in the breed, gameness.

It's true that many dogmen would not ever even look at a bitch much less test them. Heinzl used to say, "it was my daddy who taught me to fight, not my mom" and that was a very common attitude back then. But times changed, people changed. We have evolved our knowledge and thinking to where we now understand the importance of selecting every dog that is bred, wether it be male or female. This has shown to be an improvement and it would not be logical to go back to not testing the bitches. It is also no excuse for breeding to a known cur.

Let me paint this little scenario for you that is based on the facts. You and a couple of friend arrive at the red river to see this much talked about black dog that is taking everything by storm. You watch as this dog not only loses but depending on your view of the pit, he either quits or is picked up. Then a couple of matches later you see this big ol' brown dog in the pit. He and his opponent are going at it in an all out war and fighting more like smaller dogs than you would expect. This turns out to be a long hard battle and ends with one of the dogs making a dead game scratch, while the other one lives long enough to make it out of the pit but not enough to see the sun again. Both dogs showed deep, deep gameness in that match, both showed to be hard and powerful dogs. You find out that one, the one that won the match, was an older dog of about 7 and he had won 3 other hard matches before. The opponent was a 2 time winning dog as well. You ask around and someone mentions that the dogs names were Butcherboy and Sampson, they were the last match in that show where Bullyson lost to Benny.
But hey,, Bullyson was a great dog right?


Show me a rough cur that won a few and I'll show you a game one that did the same. There is absolutely no excuse to be breeding to a known cur guys.

 

Gringo you are one of the few people on the this thread whose opinion I can respect and actually make sense of even if we don't agree on all points. I know you are a good guy I know of you off this forum and I have always had respect for you and all you do with the dogs. I have seen how actively involved you are and how you treat your dogs like family and your beautiful daughter and how involved she is that to me is important the dogs deserve that. Even though we are on different sides of the fence I think we both have a mutual love and respect for the dogs in general. I agree with you about not breeding a known cur I understand the principals and you are right if we make excuses for one than we make excuses for all. My position in this whole argument is I am reading many different conflicting stories about this dog and what actually happened and I unlike you don't know any of those men or anyone around at that time. So I have a hard time forming an opinion about the dog in general since I really don't know what kind of dog he was I can only go on what I have read and what I have seen based on his pedigree and what he produced. I don't even own any dogs with this dog in my dogs pedigree with the exception of my jeep/redboy dog and he's so far back in the pedigree that it wouldn't even matter anyway. I have no reason to be biased about this dog either way as I don't own eli bred dogs or anything heavily based around bully-son. I guess where I stand is on my own feelings of treating the dogs right if they give it there all and don't make the grade than you owe it to them to at least give them the same respect. Like I said I have seen what those dogs can do and what they go through and I have so much respect for them that I feel strongly about taking care of the ones that take care of you. I have a strong enough bond with all my dogs that I just couldn't not at least cull them to a family dog or to another yard for them to live out the rest of their life in peace. I have no problem altering a working dog that has proven not to be the best example of the breed IMO that is an important part of keeping solid dogs around for years to come.So we agree on a lot of things I hope you can understand that I personally do not feel like I have enough inside resources or information about bully-son to call him a good or bad dog or even to say he was a cur. Like I said had I been the dogs owner and he did quit I would take him back out again and look at him again before I made a choice to cull or alter him just to make sure there was nothing else going on because he had already proven 2 times before he was game. It seems like there is just so many different issues going on that surrounded this dog he was HA from my understanding, than he sounded like he had some medical issues, so it's hard for me to say what was going on with that dog. What I can see is that he was important enough to at least write about and talk about today and I see he played an important role in breeding as some of his offspring have also made a huge impact on other family of dogs today. So this is what I am looking at .... He seems to be a very controversial dog so I will just go on the record of saying this I do not agree with breeding known curs if you know a dog has quit and there was no medical cause for the dog to quit meaning it wanted to go but couldn't than the dog should be a cull. I hope that clears everything up as to where I stand on this subject.

 

sadieblues

good post