Pit Bull Owners Defend Breed After Dog Fighting Bust

i raised my bitch aroun other dogs and never encouraged her to be agressive. and believe me sh would tear into a dog if she got the chance. she like only three dogs and those are the ones she grew up with. so do not tell me it is how you raise them. it is in there nature.

 

NO DOUBT! I think that's the best thing I've read in YEARS!

 

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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=bbcode-rounded-author>Originally Posted by kensloft </TD></TR><TR><TD class=bbcode-rounded-content>It is how a dog is raised that makes it what it becomes. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class="bbcode-rounded bbcode-rounded-quote" cellSpacing=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=bbcode-rounded-header>
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=bbcode-rounded-author>Originally Posted by kensloft </TD></TR><TR><TD class=bbcode-rounded-content>It is how a dog is raised that makes it what it becomes. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


I'm sorry Kensloft, but that is NOT true at all.

To start out with a premise that is not true and trying to make it seem to be true is no way to go about getting your idea accepted. Perhaps, it did not work out for you but that doesn't mean that that is the way it is. It seems to be a common thread in the ideals of people that like fighting dogs whereby they try to make all dogs the same in the sense that a particular breed can only be such a way.

Who knows why your dog turned out the way it did? I wasn't there. I didn't witness its upbringing but I don't doubt that what you say happened. There always has been and always will be dogs of different characters. How your dog got to be where it is, to me, is an unknown. Were there other dogs around?

There is no doubt you are a good person but to suggest that all animals are the same is the height of ridiculousness. No offense. Just using words.

How's the popcorn holding out.:dogkiss:

 

ive been watching this for a while but ima gonna have my little crack now.

first of all ken i have a couple of questions for you.

what is a "british staffordshire" as far as i know there is no such thing so im sure you could have never seen any papers?

and what was the other one you said? an american staffordshire pit?

i have one major problem with what you have written, you have openly stated, that your dog, or dogs have "several" incidents a year involving other dogs starting fights with them.

what the hell are you doing calling yourself an advocate , when you are putting your dogs in a position where they will be involved in a fight? it is truly il informed people like yourself who obviously watch way too much cesar milan, who do the damage to this breed.

you may change your mind with a few people who see a well mannered petbull, but they are not going to tell anyone about the lovely dog they met without it coming up in conversation, with realy = minimal positive exposure.

every single person who walks their dog and you have one of your "several" incidents is going to tell every single dog owner, neighbour,council ranger,person they walk by after it happened, about this "pitbull" that beat the crap out of their dog while they were walkig it.now you may see your dog as a calm dog who doesnt take it too far but let me tell you those people do not.this=maximum negative exposure.

those people are now forever against the breed and are the sort of people who you have helped contribute to the hatred that we suffer today.
and i wonder if you truly have ever looked at it from this perspective.

dude you are sugarcoating your dogs and making them out to be something they are not. its time you were honest about what they are. i have never "trained" my dogs to fight they dont need any training from me they have been doing it on their own from pups without my help.

and for starters , you making claims about "training it out" of them are about the funniest things ive ever heard. i have gone thru to very well renowned trainers in my country to train on of my dogs, and she is still as da as ever, no dogs around she is probly more obedient than any dog youve owned.
get another dog in front of her and the shit will hit the fan quicker , than you can say over a latte "oh she will be fine".

i dont put my animals in a situation where i can be blamed for giving them a bad image, there are enough of you out there.

you and i could play fetch and run agility with her all day long and have a ball, but the moment you drop her in a dog park full of dogs , we could leave her for an hour, and when we came back she would be wagging her tail saying "look at me dad" and it would possibly be the best day shes ever had.and the dogs would all be dead.
i am not ignorant to what she is bred for or where she has came from.

your obviously the man when it comes to dogs , so how about we go get a fila from a pup and you can show us how you are going to "train out" the dog being protective of its family.
i would bet you 10k you wouldnt have a chance.

and please if i am offending you i am sorry i realy am but i tend to get a little fired up when i see someone fooling themselves.
why is it that every single one of us here who are pretty much all for keeping the breed the way they are all fully disagree with you?

the petbull owners are as much to blame these days as anyone because they are the ones prancing their little muffins around with a ribbon on in a cafe telling everyone "oh its the way you bring them up my dog wouldnt hurt a fly" then they go home and keep their dogs seperate in crates "just incase" they decide to fight.

Who is fooling who here?????

 

and ken, i am sorry as i have said , but when you point fingers, you get them pointed back.

instead of putting it straight into you high and mighty apraoch and easing into a decent debate of opinions, you have in your first three posts made some very serious claims, wheather you know it or no which im pretty sure you do.

you have pretty much said that because of our attitudes in OUR chosen breeds nature, that we are all in it for monetary reasons or dog fighting.

that lumps a very big% of us here as dog fighters then?

you have lumped all of us into a very negative pile of owners because we have different opinions to you.
youve automaticaly lumped yourself into the worst pile of owners in our opinion by doing this.

and let me make this clear, you ken own staffs

I own Bulldogs, maybee that is why you seem so deluded.

 

To think that I did not expect the response that I have gotten from the posters that have lined up to take a swipe at someone that doesn't approve or their penchant for vicarious violence would be an asinine assumption.

In reading the reponses it was decided that rather than face-off post by post with each individual is a waste of time because I am not even sure that what is being written is being read? It seems that what is written is being scanned looking for words or phrases that can be tossed back at me which should befuddle me. Sorry that I can't oblige.

If there is one thing that is realized it is that all dogs are descended from wolves. Wolves have big teeth that rip and shred for a morsel of meat. They are carnivores. If they are fed and cared for, which is what these thousands of years of development towards the human/canine relationship has evolved into, they will have no cause to shred. Not only that but putting a Pit Bull next to a wolf will show how different they are.

Sampson1. One of the reasons that he wouldn't go after the other dog was because he was attached to his human. It had happened often enough for him to kow that he wasn't going anywhere because I was too heavy to drag. The story of your dog adds up but then there comes the matter of who is top dog. Just because dogs live together doesn't mean that they are satisfied with the status quo. There is, as you know, the alpha dog. Pound for pound they are bad-ass, powerfully strong canines.

When I let my dog cavort and frolic with other dogs I would always be listening for a growl. When I heard a growl, I would get my dog and leash him. It did not matter which dog growled. I knew that my dog would patiently wait for the growler to approach him and growl. When that happened the growler was quickly led to find out that it was picking on the wrong dog.

My dog was busy having fun and he would wait until he was aggressed upon to respond. The willy-nilly attacks against any and every dog wasn't in his nature. He, like a true Pit Bull, became game when game was called for and needed. Game-ness occurred against the dog that was looking for the fight and not the others that happened to be around at the time.

Suggesting that my dog wouldn't fight or was't a fighter is about as smart as suggesting that wolves are vegans. As a rule he was kept on a leash when outdoors. It wasn't for fear that he would be hurt but because he would do damage to his opponent and being a Pit Bull meant that it was his fault. He never had to wear a muzzle nor did people ask that he be muzzled. He was, after all, a dog and dogs do fight. It is up to the owner to maintain control. If you can't control the dog then you are the Omega in the pack.

 

but ken , what you have done is lumped us into a pile of people who you say "have a penchant for violence". you have told us how wrong we are and how superior your values are compared to our simply because we have a different opinion to yours.

my dogs have never "growled" or given a sign of what is about to happen, they just do it. if there are any signs at all it is a wagging tail , which my dog does every minute of every day.

you have in your posts lumped someone like, zoe, into the same bag as a dog fighter because her opinion is different to your own. and i am only using Zoe as an example, but in my opinion she is as good a reperesentative as the best and because you dont think her ideas are not up to your standard its not worthy of a comparison.
maybee you could go and spend a few days with her and her dogs and kids and you will realise haw wrong you are.

a point of all dog being from wolves yes you are right but if you think that after all this time they can even be lumped into the same sentence its shows how green you are.

i dont think you have ever owned a dog that could be classed as "game" let alone seen one.

so please dont think you can come into a place full of people with a different perspective as you make unfair claims and expect not to get shot down in flames.
you obviously have been a member of this forum for long enough to know what you were going to be dealing with when you decided to label us the way you have

i think you know exactly what you were in for and came looking for it.
the sister site to this will praise your words and more than likely agree to a certain extent but your not going to get the same treatment here.

i think i have spouted enough for now and will leave it at that.

i for one do not want to be around you when the day comes where you come across the dog that couldnt care less wheather you are on the end of the lead or not, and you better be holding tight or you are going to be frightened and very very suprised when you find yourself in a situation you have told yourself you could "train out".

all the best to you and your dogs.

 

Junkyard. Thanks for your input. Let's remember that what was said was that my dog was usually attcked by dogs that were off the leash but in voice control of their owners. I'm sure you get the humour.

Twice a day, 365 days a year my dog took his constitutional. There was no take a poop'n'whiz and come back into the house. He is a working dog and he loves to pull. He loved his exercise. In the course of his going out he would run into other dogs. Dogs on the leash were no problem. They could be restrained if need be. They'd meet, sniff, wag their tails and be on their separate ways. I, nor he, had any control over the idiots that allowed their dogs off-leash. These were the problem.

Out of four thousand days there are, perhaps, 40 incidents like this. Not bad by any measure. Seeing an off-leash dog approach always filled me with trepidation and caution.

Sorry to lump you into one place but it is like accusing me of having lattes. I drink Americanos. I didn't leave my dog outside, alone for longer than it took to get my coffee, because you could never tell when some dog would come sauntering by to discover my dog tied up. Leaving my dog in this indefensible position was out of the question. Before entering to get my coffee I would check the area for dogs. Up the street, across the street. I would check. With coffee in hand I would be out there with him, lickety-split. He could rest, relax, have a drink of water and, while I kept guard, wait for me to finish my coffee.

All Amstaffs are descended from the British Staffordshire. And yes, they do/did have papers.

Are you saying that you have a Bulldog and not a Pit Bull? Or is this just semantics at work.

Vilifying my dog by calling him a cur or less than your dogs shows only that you are insecure about yours.

Didn't answer all your questions but if we're lucky it'll get done.

I appreciate your candour.

 

kensloft, good to see you scratching back with bs.1) the alpha dog isnt the bad ass, its the beta dog, the beta dog is the work horse, the soldier, the protector and defender, subbordonate to the alpha.the alpha dog considers him self to important to do any work, and relise heavily on the beta dog to maintain his position. and that applies to and any animal including humans. 2) the amstaff isnt a descendent of the staffordshire he is a descendant of the game bred pit bull.the staffordshire bull terrier is also a descendant of the game bred pitbull,it was created in 1935 one year before the amstaff, and is heavily based on the cradley heath pitbull from which its standard is made .

 

Junkyard?

You are so wrong if you think that I came in looking for it.

The last thing in the world that I would want to do would be to insult Zoe.

It's later where you are but it's getting later here... ya-a-a-w-wn.

 

Touche. I ain't perfect. Hallelujah!

 

Ken all im gonna say is when the fight is for dominance it ends when one dog submits...when a gamedog is involved its not over til he or the other dog is no longer breathing...my first dog didnt care about dominance he wanted to fight because his blood pumped with hundreds of years of fighting dogs...and think he was only half Game pit and i can confidently say from your posts he was more game then any dog you've ever laid your eyes on..lets just hope you dont ever run into a true game dog running of his leash..because believe me he's not gonna tuck tail and run when your dog fights back..then you'll have a chance to see how "Game" your dog really is..

 

Ken - I really have to take exception to you saying "a dog is a dog is a dog". To say this is basically to call the entire science and study of genetics and breeding a big pile of BS. Are you really trying to tell me that you do not understand realistically how breeding for certain traits and characteristics over time will create young that naturally possess the traits that have been selectively bred for?

I also really take exception to the fact that you are calling dogs that do not play with other dogs abused or neglected. You act like "game dogs" are the only dogs that show dog aggression and in order to show it they have to be raised to be fighting and matching dogs. Since you seem so wrapped up in your "trained fighting dog" view point so lets talk about another dog aggressive breed and switch it up. My house dog, who is a lovely old Akita bitch (my other breed of choice) has certainly not seen a day of abuse or neglect in her life, nor is she a "game dog" (how could she be she is not a pit bull).

She wants to bond with me, not with strange dogs in the park. Much like the American Pit Bull Terrier, the Akita is known for a genetic predisposition to dog aggression. I did not train my dog to be dog aggressive, it appeared naturally as she matured. Her level of dog aggression is appropriate for her breed and is right in line with years of historical literature on the breed. If she had it her way she would paint the town with the blood of every other bitch she could get her teeth on, as is expected with the breed she will tolerate a select few male dogs so long as they know try to be pushy with her.

I just do not understand how you can so adamantly claim that the want to fight is something that must be trained in, and that if it shows up in a dog it is some failure on the owner's part.....

Honestly, if you want to get into it from a rescue and animal advocate view point - why do the largest and most successful pit bull rescues out there today totally, publicly, and extremely vocally disagree with your view that pit bulls need to be "trained" to fight?

 

I don't think you quite understand what it means for a dog to "be game". :eek:

Zeus never in his life was in a situation which would determine if he was game or not.

In the most concise, shortest manner I can say it....

To show gameness a dog must meet death head on, be punished and injured gravely, and then be given the opportunity to save himself and run away - the game dog will never consider taking the opportunity of self preservation, and instead will head back into the face of certain death thinking himself to be the winner, no matter how bad off he is in reality.

 

Actually, ya. That is the ONLY area she is confident in. What an ass backward dog. :rolleyes: So far she is a cold dog, or hasn't turned on yet. Even when resident dogs have shown aggression to her, she slinks away. Doesn't mean I'm going to put her in risky situations with other dogs though as the thing is, she might be fine today, with these particular dogs, but I have enough experience to know that that can change in an instant. Look at my male. He was VERY socialized as a pup with tons of dogs. He's is the most submissive dog I know with my resident dogs as he loves those bitches, but he is hell on wheels with strange dogs. The first incident he was involved in was while he was playing with some other dogs. He was about eight months, a new dog approached that was not aggressive in any way and WHAM he got ahold of him quicker than a flash and would NOT let go dispite multiple people trying to pry him off. No one taught him this. No one encouraged it. I used to dog sit him and he played with my dogs like a pup, until he started to matured and turned on. That is actually why he came to me. After going through two owners, the last one who managed to get a kill order on him as he refused to accept that his level of dog aggression wasn't something to dismiss. Last episode he was involved in included numerous grown men beating him with gold clubs while he wiped the road with a rotti. Wasn't even phased by the golf clubs. He was a headline in the making because his owners refused to manage him properly. Yes, I agree that all dogs are different, even within this breed/type. I've had dogs here that could be pretty well dubbed dog friendly and ones that had ZERO tolerance for other dogs and everything in between. The point being, is that when a breed is selectively bred for a purpose, you always have to be on the ball that they might actually display the drives they were bred for and MANY times the change comes with little warning so putting them to the test in public is not something I'm willing to do. What happens within the walls of my home is my business. What happens outside of them becomes all our concern. I love the breed too much to risk a scuffle occuring in public. The vast majority of the dogs that have remained with me have so because other people rufused to believe/accept what they were. The thing is, when you've only handled a few ''bull and terrier'' type dogs, it's easy to judge the whole on those few and not get it. Handle a couple hundred and take the ''average'' from there and see what you get. Since I no longer foster, I spend many, many hours online counselling people who have issues with their bull and terrier type dogs and want to know the most common problem people come to me with? Sudden, and unexpected animal aggression, and it's always followed by ''He's never done this before."

It scares me that you are in my area, taking risks with your dog in public, because if he winds up a headline, your screwing my dogs as well. It just takes ONCE. I have enough respect for other owners of the breed to keep my dogs off the radar. I know plenty ''pet bulls'' that are dog friendly, as I've had quite a few here myself, but I allow them to interact under VERY controlled situations, in the privacy of my own home, not in the public eye where if things went wrong, people have a front seat ticket to the event. The difference is that if ANY other breed got in a scuffle in public, well, that's just dogs being dogs, but when it's this breed, well... if you don't know how it goes, you haven't been paying attention. Do you remember that attack on the girl Shenica White? Where the ''pit bulls'' escaped their yard and mangled the crap out of the poor kid? Everyone was screaming for a ban and the death of those blood thirsty pit bulls until it was determined that they were in fact NOT pit bulls but bull mastiff mixes then the whole public tune changed and it was about how those poor dogs were neglected and abused yard dogs and then the public was calling for a ban on yard dogs to protect poor innocent dogs like them. See what we are dealing with?

 

This just shows you haven't REALLY done deep studying on this breed. Yes, all three breeds, AST, SBT and APBT do go back to the same TYPE of bull and terrier dogs BUT the American Staffordshire Terrier is a DIRECT decendant of the American Pit Bull Terrier. The American Pit Bull Terrier was a registered breed with the UKC in 1898 and the ADBA 1909 in and 1936 the AKC accepted the breed as the Staffordshire Terrier later in the 70's adding the ''American''. The SBT became an official breed in 1935 with the UK .

So if you were going to do a breakdown, it's be more like...

bull and terriers type dogs that were imported to Canada and the states became APBT and some later went on to become the AST

The ones that stayed behind became the SBT

 

Ken, no other animal including humans are as diverse as the dog. Size, build, temperament can all be changed in a short amount of time. In a few generations, you can change a whole line of dogs temperament and the way its brain is wired, the way impulses tell dogs how to react. Tandum repeats in the dogs DNA allow this to be changed as many times as we like and in a short time period. This is the reason why our pitbulls are how they are, this is also the reason why you can also have a passive pitbull that is well natured towards other animals. Because even though hundreds of years are invested in our dogs temperament, it only takes a few breedings to screw it all up. This is a testament to the diversity of the dog, really canids in general. While wolves and dogs are incredibily similiar, almost being idenical. They are nearly 20,000 years removed from eachother... and we've been breeding dogs for perfection for over 5,000 years ourselves. So a dogs behavior is not just that of a dog but is selective to the breed, they do not act the same and that 0.2 genetic difference goes a long way. We would like to preserve our breed and keep it the way it was originally intended. Like i said, it only takes a few generations for it to all slip away. I, as much as the next guy can appreciate a dog that is well natured and all around a gentle being. But thats the not kind of dog most of us on here fell in love with. There are other breeds which have been selectively bred for those traits and it would be a great deed to those breeds to try to keep those kind of behaviors and genes present.. but what is good for one breed can be destruction to another.

 

EXACLTY Venom. You pretty well typed what I was about too! lol Look at that study done on the foxes in Russia where in just 50 years not only were there EXTREME behavioral changes but PHYSICAL changes as well and this is with WILD animals, not domestic ones and this is in breeding selectively for just ONE trait. Pretty damn interesting if you ask me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

 

I love this quote...

"Because behavior is rooted in biology, selecting for tameness and against aggression means selecting for physiological changes in the systems that govern the body's hormones and neurochemicals."

So much for it's all how you raise them.

 

I will try to find the study - I swear I posted it on these boards way back. Basically scientists have discovered not only is there "nature" (ie genetically inherited traits) and "nurture" (ie the concept of teaching traits) but now scientists have discovered a third trait. It is inherited from the parents, while the offspring is still in the womb, but does not exactly fall under the rules of a DNA based trait, yet it still comes from the parents and shapes the pups.

I found it fascinating..... I will try to find it today..... but to make a long story short, this discovery proved that "nurture" has even less effect than previously thought because now another factor has come into play in shaping personality and traits....