What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing?

I think this is a good question... to me i guess it depends on what your trying to accomplish... i think if your doing it for performance and performance only then you would want to only make battle crosses so it wouldnt matter which because you would take the two best looking dogs that you had and mated them... but i do understand the importance of "breeding" i.e. when you're a real breeder you're breeding a certain line for a particular reason (as far as traits) so when you're line or inbreeding you're trying to hone in on those traits but its always a crap shot...so is the only reason battle crosses or straight outcrosses isnt preferred is because you really have NO idea what they're going to produce as opposed to when its a particular family of dogs that you're breeding you have an idea of what the dogs should produce... but then that goes back to a battle cross or an outcross because it would seem to me that you would have more success creating winners.... any opinions?

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

breed best to best.

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

Go out & breed the 2 best dogs on your yard,then go look at the papers & see what you did!

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

depends on what your breeding for and wat traits you want.

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

Depends what ped you are working with. some need outcrossing as its too tight, others need line/inbreeding to tighten it back up? it all depends.

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

Here is a good article I saved, That talks about this stuff. I can't rememebr where I got it from but it's a good read.


So many times I see people get on this board and ask, “how does this breeding look?” and “opinions on this breeding I just made” etc. There are also numerous posts regarding “what crosses best?” and “what’s the best bloodline?” “Is this breeding too tight?” And the list goes on and on. I hope that anyone who has ever asked one of these questions reads this.

First of all you have to ask yourself, “What’s the goal of this breeding?” If the answer is anything less than create dogs that compete and win at the highest level then you should not make the breeding! If you make a breeding based solely on: looks, mouth, air, ability, to preserve a “bloodline,” or even gameness, you should not make the breeding. If your brood stock has any of the above mentioned traits but does not have the ability to win, then don’t breed the dog. Why? Because our dogs were created to compete and win and anything less is a deviation from the breed standard. While some people may like certain “styles” or “traits” over others, the goal should be the same . . .to take home the blue ribbon!!!

If your “brood stock” has not shown the ability to WIN, then why breed? Why try to create more of what could not win in the first place? This is not to overlook the most valued trait we love about bulldogs, gameness. However, I have seen all to often people that make breedings with not a single win between the sire, dam, and grandparents (first 2 generations) or even worst, 3 or 4 generations only to claim that they were all “game.” What a load of bull. If they were just honest with themselves they’d admit that they would have been much better off breeding to ANY Champion then breeding to more winless dogs, regardless of bloodline.

Here is where many will want to jump in and say, “What about so-and-so, he or she was a cur/cold/untested dog and they still produced?!” We all have heard about the exceptions, but do you really want to base your time, money, and effort hoping to have the exception to the rule? Hoping to have yet another subpar dog out producing him or herself is a complete waste of time and resources 99% of the time, yet people will point to the 1% and use that as a reason to breed to something that not even the best dogman in the world could win with. When you really think about it, it’s completely STUPID!

So why is it so important to breed to winners? First of all you know breeding to a Gr. Ch. is not just breeding to the best dog on one person’s yard but he has proven him or herself to be the best over many competitors. He has accomplished the most important task of the breed, which is to compete and win over the competition. Secondly, history has shown us that most of the best producing dogs were first winners. That’s right, pick up an old book/magazine and see for yourself. Let’s take a look at the old SDJ’s R.O.M. list to drive this point home. The top 5 producing dogs on the R.O.M. list (regardless of what dog you really believe is #1) is: Ch. Jeep, Frisco, Gr. Ch. Mayday, Gr. Ch. Yellow and Gr. Ch. Buck. That means that 4 out of the 5 top producing males were not only winners but were titled dogs!

This is a good place to address another one of the BIGGEST myths in the dog game that says "inbred dogs produce better than outcrossed dogs." This is another load of BULL! Just look at the pedigrees of the above mentioned dogs

Ch. Jeep: a 50/50 cross at best. This is a dog that is a combination of a few different bloodlines, but we'll be nice and say 50/50 cross.

Frisco: Inbred, yes! Out of a father to daughter breeding but still 1/4 outcross via Bolio blood.

Gr. Ch. Mayday: A dog that was a 4-way cross between Redboy/Jocko/Bolio/Tombstone. Thats right, one of the greatest producers ever is not comprised of more than 25% of any one bloodline in only 2 damn generations!!!

Gr. Ch. Yellow: Another 50/50 cross!

Gr. Ch. Buck: A lot of controversy as to how he is really bred, but still at least a 50/50 combination.

What have we learned from this list? We learned that ALL of the top 5 producing dogs had at least 25% outcross and that most of them were at least 50% or more outcrossed!!! But what do these dogs all have in common? You guessed it, they're MOSTLY winners, coming down from mostly WINNERS! So what is more important, breeding to a bloodline or breeding to a GOOD dog? I believe history tells us that yes, there are exceptions, but the cream always rises to the top and if you want to produce winners, you better go breed to winning dogs!!!

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

Great post Wardog!

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

yeah great post wardog... That basically sums it up... thats the way i would look at it...im not doing breeding just looking for other ppls opinions... you can learn something from a baby so i like to get other ppls point of views (even though im stuck in my ways to a certain extent) because you never know when you may be able to use the information

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

to each there own..what works best for you.

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

Just dont do anything fro does and you will be straight lmmfao

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

A breeder of any type of hound should be breeding for overall better dogs, not specific traits. Some breeders do have certain type of breeding methods they perfer. I like half brother half sister breedings, and uncle to neice breedings as well. Some say dogs that were bred for hybrid vigor can't produce, I thinks its how they match that stud up with the bitch, then again some dogs just don't produce.

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

I can't remember where I got this from. I think it was posted on Pedsonline. I copy and saved it. It really tells people like it is. Whenever I post it, I make sure not to have anyone assume I wrote it cause it is just to damn good of a read to take credit for it. I wish I could give credit where credit is due on that one. It should be on it's own and as a sticky thread in the breeder discussion forum. This explains that the best producers weren't line bred and the good producers were good dogs in their own right.

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

i hear that lmao

and thats what i think it boils down to for the most part some dogs can produce and others cant... that my be the hardest thing for anyone to understand (even the most experienced dogman) that just because a particular dog is awesome doesnt mean they're going to have awesome pups...ever! i think that might be the hardest thing to deal with your champ not being able to produce champs &i guess thats why some ppl breed cold/cur dogs... (and ive come to learn that dogs are like life...you're going to do what you want no matter what anyone else thinks be it wrong be it right...) its always a crap shoot... sometimes its snake eyes others its a yo 11 *laughing* i guess that questioned cant really be answered until you've done the breeding and see what works best for you too

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

Start with good dogs and cross them together....from there linebreeding best to best from those crosses...father X daughter and mother X son or cousins and uncles.
Outcross when you need too after a few generations...very important to know and realize what traits you line has and foundation is throwing!
Breed towards a goal or specific traits you want or need!!

YIS

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

i will say i am no super dogman breedings i have made a few breedings with my dogs only and i can count them on one hand anyway there are different strokes for different floks u do not for sure need to breed to a winner to get good % although it is good to follow a good breeding program and try to use the best producers u can get stuck now im not sure if frisco or jeep were 1 on on rom list they were both good as producer's you could ever ask 1 never matched a cross heavy chinaman to the bolio the other was jeep a 3 way cross a 4 timer with a good producing track to follow i think good crosses with dogs that can produce to a poodle like the ol timmers used to say

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

yea i think thats one of the most important things too... as well as knowing which dog added what traits to the foundation right? and once again im not breeding or even thinking about breeding just saw that particular statement in an article and wanted to get some opinions

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

I never have figured out why anyone thinks they must inbreed on a certain individual in order to maintain something. If you have a great Jeep/Redboy male that has the traits you love and have to have you do not have to breed to inbreed on him to attempt to geneticly lock in his genes. You can just breed to a bitch that also has the traits your male has reguardless of the pedigree. Meaning you could complete outcross every time you breed and never loose anything as long as you breed like to like. If you love wind, I promise you that if you breed a male that has wind to a female with wind and so on and so forth generations down the line you will in the end have animals with wind. The pedigree doesn't contain the secret, the individual is where the goods are. Intense inbreeding didn't become popular until the commercial period in dogs surfaced. Think of Crenshaw's breedings, they were basicly Bo/Otis/Honeybunch/Rascal dogs and each of those dogs are atleast 50/50 crosses yet by combining 4 outcrossed dogs yielding for lack of a better term 8 way crosses still produced champion after champion. Inbreeding is not needed. Look at the champion, grand champion and ROM lists and see how many dogs aren't tightly bred, you may be shocked. Some say Jeep was the best producing male ever. Jeep was a Colby/Bullyson/Carver triple cross. Others say Frisco is the top male, again a Eli/Snooty/Bolio dog. Honeybunch was the best producing female and also was a crossed dog. it goes on and on. Not saying there aren't any tight bred animals that were stellar but its less than 1 out of every 50 champs at best.

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

Great post Wardog.In my breeding program I use all 3.Imo too produce good dogs all 3 of them must be used.

 

Re: What do you think works better Inbreeding, Line Breeding or complete out crossing

"Breeding Selection" within a solid family of dogs is the key!.Breeders 100+yrs ago never tried to produce better dogs than the previous generation,as the important breeding pattern, was just to maintain! the gameness.Theres a saying? "are modern dogs,better than the old time dogs".I say no! as only conditioning & nutrition have made todays dogs rougher & the matches shorter.take the science away from todays 3-4 way crosses & what do you have left on the average,nothing!.if i was going to start breeding,i would begin with established blood,eg.boudreaux,hargrove,clemmons,the good crenshaw stuff,tant.etc etc.& stick with it!