Are we all a bunch of hypocrits?

The American Pit Bullterrier is probably the most versatile breed I know of.
Not only because of its all arround skills but yet also the different ways / purposes he is bred for today.

We do have

Game bred dogs from fighting stock

Working type dogs from performance stock bred for hunting etc.

Showtype dogs

The cartoon version of our breed the American Bully that rightfully couldn´t be considered as a true and purebred American Pit Bullterrier but the general public does.

All of these mentioned "varieties" have their pro and contra.

what almost all fanciers bragging about, including myself, is their trustworthiness around people.

But let´s have a deeper look at it........

From this point it might get annoying sometimes but I do love to discuss on a controversal base.........

Especially Stratton (and others) emphasized in his books and writings that first and foremost pit dog people didn´t like people mean dogs at all and culled them out of their breeding programs.

So there arises one question.......

How about some world wide known dogmen and breeders that did kept, fed and bred dogs that have seriously attacking them, a family member or a visitor at one or more occassion?

Thinking about the stories told by the Mountain Man, Adam´s Earl Tudor and Joe Corvino, also thinking about dogs like Zebo, Chinaman aswell (if I remember correctly) Bullyson and many more that did maul or attack people seriously?

Why didn´t Adam´s burry Zebo right aways as he mauled his son?
Why did the Mountain man kept as far as I know two dogs that have been attacking him and some others?

If you don´t believe me check the story about Earl Tudor that Don Mayfield wrote, aswell as the interview with Mountain Man.

Why the hell did they breed to these dogs and even linebred on them if a honest dogman accordingly to all known authors and even almost every serious American Pit Bullterrier fancier?

So does that mean as long as a dog is winning and producing and therefore earning some bucks gives us the right to throw our ethics away?

I know these dogs are the exception and not the rule but if some recognized and famous breeders and dogmen easily ignoring what should be our gospel how about Joe Average then?

Wouldn´t these written down facts weaken our statements in defending the breed?

And this is just one point we did lie to ourselves!

Also the so bragged about health........

Well this point is automatically excluding the American Bully as I don´t think that soundness and health are major concerns within this "breed".

But how many American Pit Bullterriers even of working lines suffer by orthopedical issues, allergies, kidney failure or cancer?

So this seriously doesn´t only concern the show stock, also the game stock and working stock is concerned as many orthopedical deseases are lately detected if they reach an older age or if checked for in time but never the less are transmitted genetically.

Also allergies or cancer is pretty common!

So how many breeders do test their stock for genetically transmitted deseases?

One example Davor´s Ria the dam of the famous Davor´s VILI suffered by luxating patellas due to heavy, heavy inbreeding some dogs bred tight from that line still have issues, for example did South Kennels have two littermate dogs whose hind legs have been almost completely disabled!

Another issue are shy dogs like Frisco or some Peterbuilt dogs.
Does it fit the image of the canine warrior to piss his pants if put in strange sourroundings for example simply walking down a crowded street?

I know many pit dogmen don´t care at all as their dogs are chained or kenneled until it´s time to put them into a keep but honestly I do think if a dog is shy it lowers your winning chances drastically if you have to travel to a match and face him to strange surroundings as these dogs might not handle it perfectly.......

They almost also don´t mind if a dog is overly hypered as long as it doesn´t get too noisy and disturbing for themselves.

To me a dog with weak nerves is a cripple and should be culled out of any serious breeding program as this ain´t a fitting trait for a serious working dog!

As far as it´s always propagated not to breed to cold dogs, quitters or untested dogs, how many examples of hand do you know that non - worthy dogs have been used as a stud or (the more common) brood?
I could tell of plenty off hand and these dogs produced champions etc.

So this seem to me like preaching water and drinking wine within the same second!

Last but not least how many are bragging about the breeds athletics and promoting (only verbaly) the working and competitive aspects of our breed while they are hog fat themselves and don´t do shit with the dogs they keep and feed?

This doesn´t mean you have to roll or match your dog as it is illegal but these are working dogs that have to be satisfied physically and mentally aswell as they do have social needs too!

A dog that is only chained or kenneled is physically and mentally let alone socialy frustrared if you don´t work and interact with him on a daily base!

You easily could compete with your dog in legal activities like hunting, weight pulling, obedience, tracking schutzhund and so on.......

But that means to move your lazy ass and do something!

No don´t jump on that Schutzhund topic as this is just a sidenote mentioning legal activities.

But most of the people that abhorr it off hand stating this would turn our American Pit Bullterrier into a people mean monster are wrong and don´t speak from first hand experience as they never have been involved in this sport.
Just let me tell you, all my Bullterriers, American Pit Bullterriers and Rottweilers are and have been Schutzhund titled and have been absolutely perfect with people!

All the other activities are far to often belittled as these would be no tasks for a fighting dog.

They are!!!!! All you are doing with your dog will make him benefit from it, mentally, physically and support his need for social interaction with you!

But oh, I forgot it asks constantly work from you, planing and interacting with your dog and some aren´t willing to invest that amount of time in their dog / dogs.

A dogs brain doesn´t benefit from running stupidly on a mill or latching onto a pole.
It´s also no social interaction involved if he pulls you from on side of the road to the other during a rare walk!

I´ve seen all this and much more far too often and these are things that simply have to be said!

Most of the discussion on here is about pedigrees, bite, stile, game or cur, percentages and so on but there´s little conversation about how to keep your dog in proper shape, how to bound up perfectly with him or activities that your dog would benefit from!

 

Not really, or would you explain what?????

This is not learning about gamedogs this is opening eyes on some shit they are trying to tell newbies or set it as strict rules that each of us are violating day by day in one way or another!!!!!!!

And truth hurts, that´s the way it is as all abhor manbiters but have breeding to some, if I would have been Adams I´d burry that dog that bit my son imeddiately and if necessary alive! LOL!

Thing is there are many grey shades to all those humble principles and I just simplyfied it!!!!!!

So what did exactly hurt you?????

 

I just think you made the norm in some expections.

For example, you mentioned some legendary dogs that did show aggro at some point. Do you believe this was caused by genetics, or just learnt behaviour? In the following dogs and their strains: Chinaman, Zebo, Bolio, Bullyson and after +30 years of breeding descendents... was it a common trait?

I dont like aggresive dogs at all, i think there is no excuse but sometimes you have to dig to know if the problem is enviorement or is something in his genetics, and that means not only those dogs but if his ancestry and close family are known to.

About diseases and etc, you are right. When you inbreed you might get the undesirable traits surface and inbreeding depression, in both cases the breeder should cull those and just keep the ones that do not show those.

If for some reason this breeder decides a dog carry a defect, but has other desirable traits... he'll have to deal with that in the future generations and cull harder.

Genetics are not 2+2, we just see the phenotype and as you breed dogs you can discover whats deep in his genes, so the final product of a breeding program might take a lifetime.

If you are lucky enough to start your program using someone's else hard work you'll be a step ahead, but you'll need to keep breeding using same quality dogs or you'll end with dogs that are worse than the ones you started with.

It's not that easy, no one has the magic recipe or everyone out there would be a succesful breeder.

 

Oh and how about the never breed to cold dog preachers????
Never breed to quitters preachers??????

Face the truth it happend all the time troughout the history of gameodgs????? Lack of understanding?????
Or did these guys just take a gamble????? So why do so many sing this song if many just don´t give shit about these written in stone rules??????

I´m provocating and just feel free to write what has been lost!

 

Not too bad an answer!!!!

Environmental or genetically, no one could tell that wasn´t involved, like another topic passing judgement on......

Keep coming as I didn´t hear anything about what kind of handling your dogs recieve to fulfill their needs!!!!!

I know the topic sound like an asshole on warpath but see it like a Thinkpool for a controversal discussion so honesty first!!!!

Basically good post Pirbul!

 

I dont agree Benthere, but if that's true. Then those people breed them right because most APBT's are human friendly. I guess back in the day was hard to keep, train or handle a dog in a match that would bite your hand . (And im not talking about excite biters)

 

So that´s your wrong way of thinking!!!!!!
First of all dog against dog is the name of the game and if you are pitting dogs you have to be able to handle them without taken the risk of get bitten! Period!
We ask them to fight OTHER dogs and not to be human agressive otherwise we could match any kind of cur if it doens´t count!
For example a hunting dog is useless if it protects the hunted down prey against its master, he was created to serve.
A gamedog was created to fight other dogs and earn some bucks for his owner to simplify it.......!

So considering that chainsetups could fail and a dog gets loose there´s no way that gives us the right too risk human health by an out of control dog! Period!
And if a dog would try to bite my kids he is a dead dog within the very same second! Period!
I don´t expect them to be poodles or Labradors but I do expect to be of use for me as they are working dogs so a dog that would hit me is not of use to me and therefore culled! Period!

What about the other points?

Genetically transmitted diseases?????

This lowers my percentages of good stock if I consequently have culls because of bad health!
An unhealthy dog is not worth a piece of shit concerning performance standards and therefore culled!

But do you really want to cull over and over and just treating the symptomes and not the source?

 

And why it has been and it´s a must!!!!!!!

Check the history of our dogs especially back in england and ireland! There was more than often no room to chain or kennel them outside and these dogs had to be trustworthy arround people as a matter of circumstances!

So this had to be a must!!!!!

Think it over!!!!!

A decent pit dog earned money but if I couldn´t give him proper aftercare because he would bite me because of pain or excitement he´d probably get lost! So it saved future money and provided comfort for its master!!!!!!

So I honestly think it was also part of the selection process!!!!!!

And how about the other mentioned points??????

Love it!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!

 

I believe it goes hand in hand!!!!!
One is not to have without the other and benthere even manbiters have their share of quitters and cold dogs!

So letting the game aspect aside, there´s more to the package like health!

Let´s consider the mentioned patella issue of Davor´s Ria and some of the Vili blood.......

Just take as given that you raise a litter of five dogs, may there are quitters and some decent dogs, so you pick the dogs that you´d keep for yourself and raise them a couple of months just to finally end up with a dog that has bad knees and therefore can´t compete....... wouldn´t that be a waste of time and money? Let alone is there any way of knowing if your breeding produced a decent game dog? No feet, no dog, no match, as simple as that and in consequence never know if you got a game one or would you test a cripple also?

 

As a side note you said temparament is a side note of gameness.
Would you consider a french bulldog to be game, an English Bullterrier, a Labrador Retriever or a Rottweiler, German Boxer and so on????? They all disply good temperament but no way they are game dogs!!!!!!!


We also have to clarify what exactly does good temparament means!

I do believe that a overly shy dog put in strange places maybe have to handle the travelling stress to the place the match will take place will be more likely to fail than a dog that just doesn´t give a fuck an is fully focused on his job!

If we agree that Victor Aycard is someone who knows about gamedogs didn´t he state that travelling to a match is ok if your dog could handle the travelling stress and strange places properly and if not you´d better match him in his own backyard?

Guess there´s a reason why!

 

What is next reading a bedtime story to your dog so he stays mentaly stimulated? These dogs are amazing at what they can come up with to amuse themselves. They thrive on attention and can live without it. They are not children. It funny the way people come up crazy stuff. Working dogs of all breeds have been raised without constant human interaction. It is the nature of the beast. They are not on the chain thinking about goals, careers or how the world is going shit. Mine whine in the morning. Why? Are they whining because they can't fulfill dreams of biting a sleeve, going for car rides to the beach or the female next to him won't give him her phone number? Nope. They just want to be fed. It doesn't matter if I spend a hour with them or just enough time to shovel shit and change the water out as long as I feed them. Bulldogs and other working breeds are a class unto themselves. In the not so distant pass dogs were kept who brought something to the table. Now people want to project needs and wants on them that are not there. Got to go know. I'm going outside to read mine The Cat in the Hat and maybe start teaching them moral lessons also.

 

I almost spit my drink all over my computer screen.

 

I agree with this 100%

LMFAO That is awesome!

 

Dogs were kept to bring something to the table! Good point!!!!!
Do you really think these dogs would do shit all out of themselves?????
No, they have to be trained / schooled!!!!
Training / schooling means interaction and communication or do you think the nature of the beast includes the desire to hunt your food or herd your stock????? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

Even getting your dog get used to the equipment you use during a keep means interaction, also the bound between you and your dog could be a issue during a match as you can send him in or calm him a little, do you know that Lester Hughes almost talking its dogs ears bloody............ hhhhmmmmmm, why did he?????? Do you know?????


Comparing dogs that haven´t been MENTALY trained and just abandoned outside are just like a caspar hauser (if you don´t know this story just google it)!
They don´t know shit and they aren´t that mentaly versatile as a dog that has stimulation for its brain!

It´s not about trying to treat them as human or children but doing everything that benefit their working capabilities!

Don´t know what I´m talking about?????? Ok, here we go..........

If I do expect a high physical performance who do you think would do better.......

The one that is completely out of training the whole year and then have to manage a certain period of a keep to reach its peak or the one that has the chance to work out on a regular base just to keep all of his systems cardio, muscular, lungs etc in good shape??????

For example I´m a amateur boxer and I do have three days in the gym per week, I do physical workouts every day and on top of that walking my dogs at least 2,5 hours in the morning and 1 hour in the evening.

Considering you don´t do much and don´t do a workout and time in the gym and we have to stage a fight within the next 8 weeks who do you think would have the better expectations physically???????

So keep talking the situations of your dogs to your needs but there´s one saying every days little makes a big difference in the outcome, plain and simple!!!!!!!

Talking about psychological needs within dogs do you know at least the tiniest bit of canine behavior and methods to manipulate it fitting to your needs?????

Do you know at least a bit of mentaly conditioning????

See if we stay at the fighting aspect and you have to travel with your dog, do you consider it a good idea to throw him into the car and drive to the matchplace if ain´t used to it before?????

Guess would be a bad idea or do you think different?????????

 

It does not take all that much to get a dog use to these activities. It is sort of programmed into them after all these years of being bred for it. Seen one who never saw a treadmill in his life jump on one by himself and run it flat out. Got dogs who never been for ride in a car get in and ride like they had been in there forty times. Had another who was raised on a large yard for about three years and didn't receive much attention. That dog to to the flirt pole like a man possessed. I feel this is a result to selective breeding. Not that it was bred for directly, but dogs who took to work, travel or being handled while hurt did well and had a better chance of success and later being bred. Before it was a felony in all fifty people had large yards and couldn't spend much time with one unless it was for a purpose. Once they were deemed match worthy then the time was put in. The same with most other working breeds. Now to backtrack and talk about temperament. Shyness and HA are easy to breed out. A whole lot easier than breeding in desirable traits. Look at the examples you stated. Chinaman you called a manbiter, I don't think he was one, but I will run with it. Then you have his son, Frisco, who was shy. Temperament went from one end to the other in one generation. The few sons of frisco I have been around were neither. As a matter of fact they had ideal temperaments in my opinion. Happy, friendly dogs couldn't get them to stop jumping on me to get and give attention.

 

What I´m talking about in building a strong bond with your dog has the following reason, unless most of the Americans that appear more like dog collectors over here in europe we use to keep a much smaller amount of dogs, mostly due the fact of limited space..........
So if we ain´t lazy as shit assholes naturally we could put more time into each dog and this is a major plus!!!!!!!

See giving more attention to a dog that managed (might not the correct phrase) to show worthy somehow we could take advantage right away from the start........

This means starting by building up a relationship with your dog, effect is building up confidence.
Therefore we can start to get him used to a variety of training methods and figure out which suits him best, the advantage of having less trouble to bring him to peak is clear as springwater.......

Next we can make him used to handle him, what gives you an advantage during the aftercare.......

Then we could make him used to strange surroundings, like cars, crowded places, noises indoor situations etc.......
what also could be an advantage..........

If we spend some time with him on a daily base we could eventually figure out if he is mentally ready for the tasks we ask out of him and gain an overall "feeling" for the individual what also could be a big asset...........

Walking him on a daily base or just exercise him keeps a good all arround shape and we don´t have to start from nothing during a keep and we might get an idea of it´s weaks and strongs and could therefore plan a better keep for him........

Health testing would avoid problems during a keep or a working task, especially orthopedical diseases or cardio matters, also dogs that are suffering by allergies aren´t on their peak and I do concern them to be genetically transmitted.......

There´s also absolutely nothing wrong in brain train your dog as it is a known fact that if you don´t train your brain its more likely to fail and may you´ll have an advantage, who knows??????

See most people expect top results out of nothing and the point is that we all tend to be lazy bastards that want the whole cake without bringing the ingredients.........

Also check the behavior and training session especially the manbiter question, didn´t they all tell this guy to put the dogs down? And so for a good reason!!!!!!!

See often this topic is discussed black and white and some facts are kept in the clossett, you know?????

People yelling never breed to cold dogs!!!!!!! But there are plenty of examples that even quitters produced champions and even rom dogs!!!!!!

Get my point!!!!?????

Honestly I have seen quite a few yards people spending more time with their own bussiness and wasting time than put this wasted time into their dogs!

I talked to many people that would advertise all other people only to breed to proven dogs and yet bred their untested bitch to a dog of only average quality.

I even know of more than a few cases people knew that their dogs had drastic health issues but breed them anyways!

See dogs ain´t a matter of black or white it´s a grey zone and sometimes a gamble or a matter of green thumb and also the result of what you put into your dogs but there´s one point that I sure as hell would not drop into the grey zone and these are manbiters!

So for real if Zebo would have bitten my son may no one would have even heard of the name Zebo today!