Old Family Red

I believe that brindle bitch is not fly of panama, i think R Stratton has caused this common mistake...the correct photo of Fly of Panama was printed in one of the issues of the Sporting dog journal...the photo showed a buckskin bitch ... i think i still have the issue and will post it here later...

 

I am stating that there ARE red/liver nose amstaffs, plese re-read my post properly thanks

 

I did read it again and it sounded to me like both of you and Joe Bingo are trying to dispute the red nose dogs being around at the time colby, corvino, tudor, were breeding as if all the dogs they had were black nose dogs and red nosed dogs weren't seen until much later ... If that dog I posted was not Fly of Panama who was she? Because she def looks like a red nose brindle and where did she come from? ....

 

where do I dispute that red noses were around at that time ?

I put a question to Joe as to why would Corvino, etc... would keep this strain and continue with it if they did not believe that OFR dogs were a seperate strain that originated in Ireland,

I fail to see where I state or elude to the fact that red nose dogs were not around at the time

Let me make myself crystal clear
I know of no verifiable proof for OR against the argument that red nosed bulldogs existed in Ireland in the 1800's

I find it logical that a strain of OFR bulldogs did exist as one distinct family in Ireland in the 1800's, and that corvino and other dogmen must have believed it also to stick with this strain
I do not know if the red nose dogs first appeared in Ireland, France, Spain or America, but I think from reading the posts on this topic that most believe it was first recognised in America and given the title OFRN

I have seen red nose AST's and was curious as to where they can trace this trait to
Being on the wrong side of the pond hinders the research into this rednose trait , which does occur in AST's afaik
I was informed by someone your side of the pond that the X-Pert line was where the red nose trait came from in AST's and was advised to research the line
Posting the reference to Centipede and Billy Sunday in X-Pert blood was an attempt to say to Joe that some of the dogs in amstaff peds were of OFRN blood

 

I believe the red nosed dogs come from the Ofrn strains the Amstaffs back then were just Apbts registered under another name lol so It shouldn't be a surprise that there were and are red nosed staffs. Obviously the person who would know the most on this subject would be IM and his family as they have a very influential impact on those dogs it seems as though he has laid it all out for us but people want to argue with him and demand he show proof of what he saw there are so many peds online of these older dogs without photos and even inaccurate or incomplete peds so we can only go by what these men who were actually there tell us to argue with someone like IM is kind of pointless as most of us haven't been around the breed long enough to argue with him. And while I respect Colby and Stratton I believe those men to be fanciers of the breed I don't believe stratton ever matched dogs and according to IM neither did Colby. I apologize if I read your post incorrectly this whole thread has been all over the place and I was confused lol.

 

You had to go and get technical on me What was said was "allowed to get stock off of both brothers" As sabong said, if we could go back in time.... I had a quite a few from two of the best OFRN breeders in modern history.

 

Enough said....
Thanks C2K, for saving me the trouble of long hours of research.:vovvetliten:

@ those who still question:
If what has been said already isn't enough, I don't think anything else will do.
More important than debating over a known history and proving anything is this:
Preserving the traditional OFRN strain.
As Joe Corvino said: The test of a family is time.

 

theres nothing wrong with asking the questions that get ppl thinking , its been written that the APBT is the product of crossing the bulldog with a terrier yet nobody gets all up tight when someone disputes that , or maybe only ppl who have kept APBT for 30 yrs can question that .

@Eagle how do you think fanciers of the OFRN should go about "preserving" the strain ?

 

hmmm...okay, here's my honest opinion.
By more selective breeding, rather than mass breeding.
By closing the circle on buyers...for a good breeder chooses where the pups go; the buyer doesn't choose the breeder.
These dogs must not only be selectively bred, but selectively sold to responsible owners.
I'd wanna make sure a pup I sold is going to a home for life...
Next, for the OFRN owners to become a part of the OFRN Registry, which was created for this purpose.
This is a unique strain of A(p)BT, and the dedicated owners and breeders need to form a tight circle.
This is just a small glimpse of my opinion on this matter.
But the bottom line is this: Just as the breed as a whole is over bred, which means a loss of quality,
so too is the OFRN strain. The "color" only breeders need to be weeded out.
By that I mean, those who only sell for money and "looks."

 

I second that emotion

 

Same damn way Wallace and the rest of the oldtimers keept em true and up to standerd. Plain and simple.

 

View attachment 24736
Found a page that mentions dogs imported from Ireland....
Just thought I'd put it up...
(click to enlarge.)

 

nice find, thanks for posting

 

Good example.
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1230] :: WILLIAMS' TIM
And that's ALL red ?
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [35087] :: DUFFY'S JACK (6XW)
I know it's far far back, but it's still a Black & Tan in there. Could be just the color of this dog, Connor's Black And Tan, or maybe even the name of the breed. Who knows. But he can't be an OFR. That's what I have learned from Mike.
Was this an early cross ?

 

This debate is futile, even Wallace who had the purest of the OFRN strain had black nosed dogs in their lineage, anyone who says they have pure rednose is a fool and if you believe them I have a bridge to sell you....


NGK

 

Thank you Sadie, finally some one who can walk, chew gum and think at the same time!Yes you are right, the Fly was a red/red nose!

 

If you want to put a question about why Corvino did this or that, direct in my direct because Joe B won't know! I would.......Joe Corvino used what he could win with. It is very well known if he got beat, he would try to buy the other dog. All Corvino dogs trace back into Jerry.No the dogs didn't first get recognized here in America and was named OFRN. The naming of the strain was decades later. But the knowledge of the OFR from Ireland and their abilities were very well known for decades. If you saw OFRN AST then you saw a dog barred from AKC because they were never allowed to be single registered. It had to come the recessive gene from the Irish imports. AKC deemed this as a fault!!So much the BS story the APBT came from the English Bulldog and the White English Terrier.

 

I think this has already been address about the "Pure OFRN" remarks.BTW Bob Wallace didn't have the heaviest of the strain.

 

Oh I do! There is no such proof of the Terrier. Of all the breeds known to be used in making up the A(p)BT only 1 breed of dog has there ever been reference made to the fact there was Terrier in the dogs and that was the Staffords. Once again the cross that produced another so called fighting dog as the English Bull Terrier was again confused as the same dog and cross and to be said the Staffords were created the same way. Since the very beginning this breed was already loosely referred too as just "Bulldogs".

 

LMAO. You did too. But one of those never considered himself a breeder... If he had a choice, you know all he would like. But those days are pretty much gone.