Papers Dont Make Dogz, Dogz Make A Paper

SPF: Papers are important to me b/c I show/pull my dogs. Without papers you cannot do this in the clubs in my area.

But they are not the end-all & be-all to me. I once was going to try to either breed to or get a pup off Booney's GR.CH. Sport & he wasn't papered.

That being said, to say papers don't matter is a crock. As I said before, all someone needs to do is come on here & say they have a CKC dog or an ADR dog or whatever, & 99.9% of the ppl will bash the living tar out of them before they even find out if the dog is any good or not.

So if papers don't matter, why judge a dog on them? But folks do it every day ...

 

I think the point being made is knowing your dogs ped is important. Having the actual paperwork isnt. I see where it would be to those who show though. YIS, D.

 

WHO you get the Dog from IS THE SINGLE most important thing... ABK no self respecting Honest Honorable Breeder of High Caliber Dogs is going to go with the CKC as a registrar..... My personal Top three People That I look up to in the dog game, Hand write their peds.. no need to pay someone else to keep your own records... For some reason People need the feeling that what they are getting is authentic, thats why people want papers isn't it....? Well if you have that untrusting feeling towards the breeder then WHY ARE YOU GETTING A DOG FROM THEM???? If the people that i want a dog from tell me that This dog right here is an Honest bulldog.. then i have faith in that person... If i didn't i wouldn't be getting the dog from that person... Papers Prove nothing... NO peace of paper ever made a dog a better hunter out on the field.

Papers are good for only one thing IMO (well Two really) One is peddling pups and the other is wiping your ass... Too many people do one of them and not enough of the other....


Y.I.S.
B. Robert Dick

 

i know people say papers do not make the dog, but don't you have to start from somewhere i mean if papers did not matter a little what would be the poin of linebreeing an such, i mean if you had to scatterbred ch one female one male with no papers would you breed them. now i am no breeder and really have no idea what would make a good breeding but having a breeding a certain bloodline is done so you have some idea of how the litter will turn out. i could be totally wrong but that is how i look at it

 

It all boils down to WHO you get the dog from.... Not having papers and not knowing the breeding of said dogs are two different things... What does breeding have to do with hunting your DOG??? Nothing..... Leave the Breeding to the Breeders..... They are the only ones that should be breeding... Winnig a feild trial with a GREAT DOG and breeding dogs that will win in the feild should be done while wearing two diff. hats....

If you have the time and space to take chances on unknown and or scatter bred stock... then try your luck and do whatever flouts yer boat.... is it the best idea? NO... I would get dogs from someone with a proven family of dogs... THAT I TRUST....if i want to get into the breeding of hunting dogs.... The Best to the Best FROM THE BEST that was FROM THE BEST to get THE BEST.

 

I agree with ABK in that papers can be important for what you want to do with the dog. For some, what they do doesn't require any papers, and that's fine. I'm not out to bash anyone's program, but I need that documentation for the ring, the track, and the trials. Since those are what I use for my proving ground, in order for my dogz to make da paper, they have to have the paper to begin with.

 

Red Cocaine: You cannot say that only dishonest, dishonorable breeder use CKC. I use CKC & I am honest & honorable. CKC is very popular here in MS. I dual my litters ADBA & CKC so anyone here in MS. or the surrounding states purchases one of my pups they can compete in both ADBA & CKC events.

As for your breeding concept, with all due respect, you are way off base. Most great dogmen of the past did not use best to best & several dogmen of today who adhere to the breeding styles of old do not use best to best.

Example: Mr. Clemmons bred Brendy on her first heat. I believe she was at the age of 9 mos old. If she was that young you can't tell me she was either tested or tried. Yet that breeding begot Eli Jr., Bullyson etc.

Another was Shivar's Buster. If I recall correctly, (anyone please correct me if I am wrong) he was cold & wouldn't hit a lick, but he was bred several times, even reaching ROM status. I doubt you would consider a dog who wouldn't go one of the "best."

And he wasn't the only one. There were several bitches who were bred who wouldn't crank. Would you consider them the "best?" Probably not. But dogmen of old still bred them & got phenominal results.

And lets not get started on the dogs who would go & quit, only to be tried later & bred to.

But back to the point - dogs ARE judged by their papers, whether folks on here want to admit it or not. Just look at the thread "Papers." A fellow got a CKC reg. dog & the first shred of advice he got was "spay it." No one knows the calibre of the dog in any way, shape, or form, but he is automatically told to spay the dog b/c it is CKC reg.

So deny, deny, deny as much as you want (BTW just to clarify I'm using "you" as a general term here), but the fact of the matter is dogs ARE judged by their papers.

 

Hey if you use CKC good for you.... whatever cranks your nob..... But i stand by what i said....

I never said that every dogman bred the best to best.... ALLOT OF people didn't and STILL don't...

do i agree with that.... doesn't matter..... it's their program and if it works for them and the people they give dogs to.... Best of luck to em'.... when people do that it just keeps the %'s lower down the line.....

And the First bit of advice he got was Contact the Reg. them selfs....

Would you judge a dog that had no papers but came from ohh say Tudor him self... or Colby... Or Hemphill.... Or whoever.... and they told you the dog is a good one and gave you a hand wrote ped.... thats all one needs..... SO WHAT if people judge your dog..... ALL B.S. stops at that one line..... Good Dogs will remembered as such and GOOD Honest Men will be remembered as such.... regardless....

 

Ok lets settle this once and for all lol....There are many aspects to this breed,when you learn how to use those things in there correct place it make the breed better.There are many things that make up a dog and a piece of paper is not one of them,and there are some that need them,that can't remember and then there are some who has the ability to keep it all in their heads.But no matter what the ped says it is only a guide and does not matter to honest dogmen,until a certain point is reached .I think that it is human expectancy that does not make the dog....Now what I have said is nothing new just an opinion........

 

had this lying about thought it might add to the discussion

FROM NOVICE TO EXPERT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

21 February 2002
Here is an article I pulled from the ADBA Gazette Spring 2002 issue, which I thought was pretty interesting. The article was writen by Amy Burford, the late Hank Greenwood's daughter.
...We all start out as novices, in whatever field we choose to participate in, and there is no disgrace in being a novice. How and what we choose to learn deternines to what level of "expert" we achieve and how fast we achieve it. Some people quickly find that they do not have the determination that it takes to "pay their dues" and to learn the lessons they have learn and they quickly drop out of the picture. Then there are those that spend countless years making the same mistakes over and over never progressing past the novice stage. And lastly, there are those individuals whose knowledge and understanding of sport is awe inspiring, and can be called a true expert in the dogs.

Most fanciers in the beginning, start by being attracted to one dog. That certain dog with the right look, the determined attitude, the awe-inspiring performance that compels you to find out more about the breed. I remember, my father, Ralph Greenwood,, in those early years with the APBT. His main interest was as a conditioner and handler. He said many times that good dogs can be found in every bloodline, and it was his interest to find the best ones, whether they were in his yard or the yard of friends and bring them to compete at the proper weight and in the best condition possible. He didn't spend too much energy worrying about the dog's pedigree, or if the dog was the product of line breeding, inbreeding or an out-crossed breeding. He truusted the breeder from whom he got the dog, for the selection of the brood stock, the research into the bloodlines and the careful planning of the breedings.

As Ralph moved down the path from Novice to Expert, his understanding of the dog game deepend and his focus broadened. It was in the late 1960's when I remember the focus changing to pedigrees, and what bloodlines our current dogs came from. My borther Hank, in his drafting class at the Junior High School made up blank six generation pedigree forms. Mom amd I spent hours writing out six generation pedigrees by hand on all of our dogs and the dogs of our friends. Ralph's interest went further into the individual histories of the dogs in the pedigrees of his dogs and other good dogs that he had the opportunity to see. I remember the letters and phone calls to breeders and the treasured hand written comments scrawled on the pedigrees about a certain sire or dam, ie., "3x winner," "producer of 2 champions," "best 37lb male I ever saw," etc. We soon learned that it was the history behind the dogs that made it so fascinating.

Another excellent breeder, who may be called a try EXPERT in the dogs, was Howard Heinzl. During the 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's, he produced some of the best APBT's in the western United States. Howard was not only a breeder of the APBT, but he was also interested in thoroughbred racing horses and their breeding. The summer I turned 16, I had the opportunity to spend a few weeks with Howard and his wife at his home in Tempe, Arizona. Every day, when the mid afternoon temperatures would force us inside, we would retreat to his 'study'. It was an air-conditioned back porch, where we would look over different pedigrees. We would look over pedigrees of famous race horses to see what breeding produced this horse or that horse. Howard would tell me that dog in the pedigree that we were studying. He would also tell me about upcoming breedings that he was planning and why the breeding should produce the type of dog he was hoping. He would also laugh at the end of his story to proclaim, "and with all this careful planning, rest assured it is in the lap of the Gods." It was from Howard that I gained respect for a dog's pedigree, as his disdain was evident for anyone suspected of falsyfing the breeding of a dog or a horse. One of his famous saying was, that a man who would falsify a pedigree would "steal the gold coins off of his dead mother's eyes".

It is interesting to note that this saying refers to the death ritual in England during the Victorian era. The body of a dead relative was prepared and shrouded and displayed in the parlor of the family home for relatives and friends to visit and mourn. Gold coins were placed on top of the shroud in the eye region, to buy the dead relative's entrance into Heaven. Anyone who would steal the gold coins off of his own mothers eyes, had to be lower that low! Howard understood that breeding dog is speculative enough, even when you do all of your homework, plan your breeding carefully and select quality brood stock. For a breeder to breed a dog with an unknown pedigree, it would be like going duch hunting blinkfolded. I have known of breeders wasting ten years or more breeding a line of dogs, and coming up broke.

When I get numerous email's and calls from fanciers inquiring "how do I get papers of this wonderful dog of unknown background, so I can breed him" I remind myself that these are NOVICES and in time, with education, rational counseling and experience, they can come to understand the importance of selection of quality dogs with excellent bloodlines, for ones breeding program. Without this criteria, there is no assurance of quality dogs for the future. And when I hear someone proclaiming, "the only thing that pedigree papers are food for is cleaning up puppy poop," I smile and remember the beginning, from NOVICE TO EXPERT!

 

Red Cocaine: Thank you for your blessing sir. I will continue to do what "cranks my knob" (eh, could you be any more vulgar? And yes, the spelling is "knob," not "nob")

We only have 3 clubs who put on events in our area. UKC, CKC & ADBA. But most of the gamebred folks use ADBA/CKC & I see no harm whatsoever in dualing a litter ADBA/CKC to provide those who do something w/ their dog another avenue to compete in.

As for your question, No, I would not turn down a unpapered dog from Tudor, Colby, etc. Did you not see my previous post where I mentioned aquiring some GR.CH. Sport blood, a dog who was unpapered?

But turnabout is fair play. So let me ask you, would you turn down a well bred dog who is CKC reg.? I can bet my bottom dollar you would.

Finally, with all due respect, you have made another completely erroneous statement. In the thread "papers" the OP only got only one response & the opening to the response was (and this is a direct quote) "Keep the dog, get her spayed, and forget about any papers." Nothing whatsoever was said about contacting the registry.

cooljoe: You are right, a dog does make it's papers & performance should matter above all. I guess what go me so tee'd are these folks who out of one side of their mouth whole-heartedly agree w/ the OP, yet out of the other side of their mouth they automatically judge a dog as junk if it doesn't have ADBA papers. :rolleyes:

castle: Thanks for the post, I found it to be a great read!

 

gr ch sport was off Sir dog these dogs were from B crews the story is they found sir dog and he turned out a good lot of dogs. Now I asked B. crews face to face about this and he told me Sir was out of that good old cracker jack stuff. B. crews was a dog man and did not paper a lot of dogs till they were proven. The man he got sir dog from Died and he never could paper him. NOW does that make him a un worthey DOG ? I think not YOU HAVE TO TRUST THE PEOPLE YOU DEAL WITH. I could paper a mut and alot of people would buy un seen just for paper and thats whats wrong with the dogs now. YIS J

 

I think paper is like some direction but most people use only paper and doing everything becouse of it to make $$.

 

I agree with ABK, the organization you choose to register your dogs means nothing... if we consider only the organization we assume that any hyppos registered in ADBA are purest than any gamedog registered in CKC, and of course, the ADBA breeder is much honest than a CKC breeder... this is crap!
The honestly of a breeder cannot be impressed in a paper, this is pretty ridiculous in my oppinion as papers are papers and nothing more... how many "breeders" have false papers, with an objective (as hide the dog's real blood) or without an objective (...huum, dog sellers).

 

I agree but the question is always can you trust the papers...?
So at least you need one thing for sure and that is a hard selection....and if the dog is good A N D has good papers...Congratulations...
But never trust a dog being a good producer only because of his papers......

selection, selection and again selection is the key....Papers can help you....papers can fool you...

 

this is plain and simple no kidding if u know how your dog is breed why do u need another person to put in on paper unless u show your dogs or just like using a register to keep track for you good dogs are were u find them and that is all that needs to be said papers are a matter chioce and when ever u get this breed u should trust your breeder all the way and if they tell u how its breed u will belive it cause u trust them and there dogs :cool:

 

All I am saying is that the better the dogs in the gene pool, the better your chances are of producing more quality dogs from that breeding. Great dogs can produce some not so great dogs while on the other hand, dogs most wouldn't pay five cents for can produce exceptional dogs. The great ones just have better chances at producing quality.

~Any posts by me are for entertainment purposes only and should be viewed as fiction~

 

first things first. it's Frenchie, no y in there. secondly, "insolt" is spelled with a u. and last but not least, i do offer my apologies if you were that offended. but try to understand where i'm coming from, someone who hasn't even introduced themselves comes on here and procedes to make a post such as yours, and it will undoubtedly ruffle some feathers. however, it was a provocative post at the very least and it engaged members in civil discussion. so for that my hat's off to ya.

 

I say burn all the paper and hide your dogs.

 

Whats that old saying??

just because they sell you the soup doesn't mean they will sell the recipie!!

or You throw enough crap against the wall something is bound to stick
(isn't that right IM lol)

If breeding was as simple as best to best then we all would have a yardfull of aces,. Anyone can breed 2 dogs (well lol, almost anyone ) It's what follows that matters and not everyone can do that or has the patience to do that.

and unless you personally saw every single dog bred in your dog's pedigree, how can you be sure its true? remember, alot of "reputable" people are good salesmen! There are alot of good breeders with secret recipies and why should they share with someone else? lol

I think people are confusing PEDIGREE with "registered". registered is simply that the dog has some official looking paper with it's name and a mumber on it from some organization that keeps a record of it. (side note, a dog that has papers is basically a registered dog, ) A dog doesn';t have to be "registered" to have a "pedigree". All dogs truthfully have a pedigree, a pedgiree is nothing more than a family tree. Sometimes it's correct, sometimes is simply not known.. sometimes is so full of bs ... a pedigree does matter when it comes to breeding. THE REGISTRY DOES NOT