Should APBT's be used in protection/guard training!

Again I believe that he breed has the ability to do anything, but the question is should it. Again I have to say the timing is not right. The dog is fine it is the people who are not ready for pits ripping at the sleeve. Which people? The ones who support the ignorant law maker watching a compition video think how visious the breed must be to bite at a mans arm like that. The same politician who would think that the man willing to train a dog to be at a high level of compitition would let his dogs run the neighborhood. As earlier stated by me the problem also is the wanna be trainiers who may attempt to train dogs that may be running the streets.

 

How many of you have seen an actual Schutzhund, French Ring, AWDF, PSA or any protection work trial? How many of you have actually gone and done formal obedience on your dog? These are just questions forthe board. I am curious. I am a trainer and compete with my dogs on a national level. I am truly curious about the experience that he board has with protection work how to go about it and such. Hankdad/Shane

 

in my opinion any breed of dog can be trained in any kind of protection work. It just depends on the training method in some dogs. I do k9 officer work, personal protection, assailant take downs, and so on. As far as size goes, the smaller more compact pits could do this, the big 100lb ones might have a harder time, they would certainly move slower. I am still learning about the pit bulls in general, I think it boils down to personality and an eagerness to please.

 

I am completely against competing in schutzund with these dogs. Therea are breeds that are better suited for it, that are bred for it (not against it), and every other breed out there doesn't have a manbiting image like the pit bull. Why add to the BS hype? I understand that it is more of a sport when done properly than a dog trying to kill someone. However, the public doesn't see it that way. They see it as another pit bull attacking someone and being trained to do it.

 

NO!! NO!! NO!! NO!! did i mention N0.LOL

 

There is a specific training method in Shuntzund, I would agree that there are probably better breeds out there for this type of training. The only reason I see, is in size and body type, I can't see a little dog doing this or a great dane.
The dogs I train need to scale a 8ft wall, they need to jump through a window, they have to have a good prey drive. Even in Guard or protection training none of these dogs are on their own head, they on the trainers head, there is no emotion on the dogs part, it is all a fun game to them. all the shuntzund trained dogs are amazing, there is alot of work that goes into the correct training, it is not about making a dog mean. I can fire up a well trained dog, you would think he is going to kill you I can "aus" him (make him stop or let go) with one command and he can be touched immediatley by the very person that I just fired him up on. I would love to pitts in positve ways. everyone loves a well trained dog. It is awesome to watch.

 

I train Rollo in Schutzhund. I feel regardless what kind of dog, obedience is a must. I discourage dog aggression or animal aggression in my dog. A well trained dog is like a martial arts expert, you normally don't see them starting bar fights. It's a higher level of decipline. You're more than welcome to look at my gallery to see some of his work. But as far as arguing... I'm not stooping to that level. If anyone would like to PM me and ask questions, I'd be more than happy to answer.

 

I would whole heartedly agree!

 

i think with official and thorough training it is not a problem. this all goes back to reputation kind of like reputable breeders you want a reputable trainer.

 

We KNOW what kind of training goes into Schutzhund. And we also know that you can't "train" dog aggression out of an APBT.

I just fell that their are plenty of other breeds who were bred for this purpose to use. There's no reason to do so with a "pit bull". Unfortunately, the general public does not know what kind of training goes into the making of a true Schutzhund dog & all they see is a dog attacking someone. You never see obedience pics or handling pics...you only see bitework pics posted thereby, whether meaning to or not, giving the image that bitework (aka "attacking people" to the public) is the main even when in fact it's only a reward. The negative press the dogs receive despite one's arguing about the sport of Schutzhund, just isn't worth it. We have enough bad press on our dogs....why create more & post pics of it on the internet?.

 

while shutzhund is an amazing sport that focuses on OBEDIENCE, i personally don't believe that it is the best sport for pits. a lot of people think of shutzhund as mostly attacking, the purpose is for them to be called off. why teach your dog to bite people, if you really needed him i'm sure he would protect you.

 

"A well trained dog is like a martial arts expert"
I often use this in my training sessions. I also use the boxing analogy. It is hard to say here that you can use a APBT for this type of work however I will say this and ask the board to think about it.

Does your dog have tenacity?
Does your dog have the wilingness to learn?
Does your dog have prey drive?
Does your dog always want to please you?
Does your dog have heart?
Is your dog a thinker?
Does your dog look to you for approval?
Does your dog have the never say die attitude?
Does your dog like to play ruff?
Does your dog like to run?
Does your dog have a confidence about it?
Does your dog like to tug at stuff and take it away proud after it has it?

If you answered yes to all of these you may have a dog that could do Schutzhund or French Ring.Now I would suspect that a lot of us have all of these traits in our dogs but don't want and don't think that our dogs should bite people.That is why a lot of people I know and deal with want to use the APBT because of these traits as well as the short hair and their stigmatism within the public eye.
I say to you this. What better way to advertise that our dogs are controllable in the face of the public than do some of the hardest training on the planet and then have that same dog be under control with people and kids, that are not their own but strangers. Is that not showing the general public that they are wrong in the best possible way, not arguing but proving them absolutley wrong by showing them. A trained dog, is a Happy dog. It is a confident dog. It is a relaxed dog. Lets face it a lot of the dogs that are on TV biting people are fearful of people thru either bad breeding or lack of socilization. They get loose and feel cornered and bam it happens. The fight or flight comes out and they bite. Or, they are on chains(I have nothing against chains) and they break or get off it somehow and the prey drive that has been built up in them and the frustration that they have from being on tha chain is finally getting to be released and they see something running or moving and they bite it and bite it hard, they shake it and try to kill it. Like their natural instincts are, like a wolf in the wild would do a rabbit. It is this that occurs more than anything, the naturalness of prey in our dogs the see it, chase it, bite it, and kill it. Some dogs have it more than others but they all have it. This is the horror story of our breeds and it is not a mistake made by the dog but ourselves in not getting out and releaving that frustration. This same chain and release is used in teaching dogs to bite while in protection work but it is controlled, praised, and encouraged to be released in that particular instance.
I specialize in training Bully breeds, all bully breeds,from the Staffy Bull thru the Bull Mastiff. They are wired slightly different than the herding breeds and
it does take someone to know that to help them understandf that the game is fun but it is not done all the time. It has to be a "controlled violence." One of the first things taught is the " out or aus" and obedience. It is one of the foundation things done with Bully breeds because of their nature to bite and hold on. That was bred into them and it is something they naturally do better than the herding breeds. This "out" comand is done motivationally not with any corrections or break sticks, but just with soft voice and reward. This is just how I teach it, not the norm or the only way.

If you have not been out to see Schutzhund or French ring in person please go out and see it and see how the control is maintained in these dogs. If you have and stillfeel the same way maybe you can see a Bully breed do it and make the call then. If you still feel the same way that is cool this is America you have that right.LOL You may want to try out Iron Dog it is geared more to our Bully breeds. It is enjoyable way to get your dog out and compete in something other than just weight pull. It does have a bite but you can skip that portion I think. You will have to go thru a little obedience test to compete. Here is the website for Iron Dog: www.irondog.biz

Remember this is not the law, just my 2 cents. Keep learning, Keep Bulldoggin, keep training. Hankdad/Shane
P.S. I will try and post some vid of one of my good friends APBT that does French Ring so you can see it. "controlled violence"
BTW sorry for the looooong post.LOL

 

Thank you....Well said....I have complet control on my dog at ALL times.

 

this is something i would like to look into with my dog but i dont know of ne one in baton rouge. does ne one here know of a group in baton rouge?

 

obedience is a must..... definatly. if you dont have control at all times....you have nothing.

dameon your dog is amazing. you could tell he was taught properly.

 

There is a a guy (local state trooper) who runs a small group, but he will not accept any of the "pit bull" breeds except American Bulldogs. He doesn't discriminate because of likes, he loves the breeds, but rather because he feels they shouldn't have to learn to do something that screams against their very breeding of what NOT to do. He will work on the obedience aspects but will not engage in bitework. He says it's not fair to the breed. I will talk to him & if he oks it, then I will give you his name & number in a pm. But remember, he feels very much like I do & like 99% of the APBT population in the use of these dogs for this sport & no amount of persuasion will get him to train your dog in bitework. And God forbid you even say the term "protection training" or he will have your ass.........

 

no prob not real interested in bit work
they know how to do that when they have to
obediance and some of the search training is interesting to me. thanks mia

 

"A well trained dog is like a martial arts expert"
I often use this in my training sessions. I also use the boxing analogy.
Only thing a martial arts expert and a trained sport dog have in common is hours of training. A dog is told what/where/why to do something, unlike a martial arts expert. There is no comparison between the two other than the amount of training needed to become good at said sport.



I would suspect that a lot of us have all of these traits in our dogs but don't want and don't think that our dogs should bite people.
Just because a trainer can/could bring out the fight drive in this breed and train them for that sport doesn’t mean it should be done. Like history show’s us once people start competing in that type of sport it is always followed by breeding for it! If you look at the “look alike” APBT’s that compete in that type of sport, they are only shells of a true bulldog!



That is why a lot of people I know and deal with want to use the APBT because of these traits as well as the short hair and their stigmatism within the public eye.
A lot of people “deal” with this breed, most don’t really have bulldogs just a piece of paper claiming they are “APBT’s”! Which is where is gets confusing for many especially new people researching this breed.



What better way to advertise that our dogs are controllable in the face of the public than do some of the hardest training on the planet and then have that same dog be under control with people and kids, that are not their own but strangers.
Since when did obedience training, bite work, and running around an 80m X 100m field where everything is known prior to entering the field, except score, constitute “hardest training on the planet”? Many I’m sure could show their dogs are great with people without having to put on a show prior to it.



Is that not showing the general public that they are wrong in the best possible way, not arguing but proving them absolutley wrong by showing them.
Sounds good in theory, but the truth is most don’t know anything about Schutzund, French/Belgian Ring, KNVP, etc. let alone actually seen it in person. Being the average Joe has never seen it unless a glimpse on TV how is it “showing” them anything?



Lets face it a lot of the dogs that are on TV biting people are fearful of people thru either bad breeding or lack of socilization. They get loose and feel cornered and bam it happens. The fight or flight comes out and they bite. Or, they are on chains(I have nothing against chains) and they break or get off it somehow and the prey drive that has been built up in them and the frustration that they have from being on tha chain is finally getting to be released and they see something running or moving and they bite it and bite it hard, they shake it and try to kill it. Like their natural instincts are, like a wolf in the wild would do a rabbit. It is this that occurs more than anything, the naturalness of prey in our dogs the see it, chase it, bite it, and kill it. Some dogs have it more than others but they all have it. This is the horror story of our breeds and it is not a mistake made by the dog but ourselves in not getting out and releaving that frustration. This same chain and release is used in teaching dogs to bite while in protection work but it is controlled, praised, and encouraged to be released in that particular instance.
That is true but has nothing to do with the topic of discussion. They aren’t going to change their ways suddenly because they hear about Schutzund.



P.S. I will try and post some vid of one of my good friends APBT that does French Ring so you can see it. "controlled violence"
Looking forward to it would also like seeing it’s pedigree.

 

tex is a surgeon of the forum he can cut em up and break em down..... good points tex

 

Tex, I respect your thoughts and appreciate the Banter.
I liken the Discipline of trainnig dogs in protection work to the sports analogies because it is something that peopel can wrap their minds around. You are correct when you say that the Martial Artist has the choice to react and not react. It is that way too with a well trained dog, not half trained but well trained dog. The "human" has the choice wheter to react or not react. It is nevr the dogs decision to react on its own, unless trained for a specific exercise.
I would have to say that your opinion on wether a certain breed of dog is or is not the same dog as APBT is solid however there are plenty of APBTs working to. Your statement "shell of a real bulldog" is quite a great assumption. I know a lot of APBTs that can't handle man work and a lot of ABs or Presas that can and vice versa. This is why I prefer to go by wach indidual dog. Some dogs don't have the heart like I stated if your dog has all those traits.
I agree that the true a true APBT, Rottie, GSD, AB, and so on are few and far between desote what peoples papers say.
Nothing about the OB and bite work has to do with great dogs, however that is what they do in Schutzhund, FR, KNPV, PSA, etc... it dose show that the dog has control and is another testament to having a great dog. Like I said most dogs can't handle this stuff and fold under pressure. When I was talking about he hardest traing I was speaking mainly of French Ring and the suit disciplines not schutzhund.
I totally agree with youor state ment that the average joe has never seen or even heard about it and wouldn't know it if they saw it. They would just think that they are watching an APBT run down the field and bite a person. I woulld however think that once they saw the control that they could be under they would relaize that it can be done, however I guess that it is my turn to do the assuming.LOL
I don't see a problem with breeding your dog for a specific discipline, the herding breeders ahve been doing it for years in man work and herding ability. I am tryingto get these traits in my dogs when I breed them. The rottie people have bred dogs to do man work forever also. The old time Bulldoggers did this when bull baiting was not illegal also. If the dog couldn't do the job they where culled but if 2 particular dogs did the job well they put them together in hopes to produce better dogs. Just my humble thoughts on this.
I again am guilty of assuming that a lot of people here have either seen or been exposed to PP work. That is why I posted if you have not gone out and seen it done, go educate yourself on it and it may or may not change your mind. Not trying to push my thoughts on anyone but trying to get people to understand that it may be an option for them and to check it out.
I will get some video up tomorrow, and agian thanx for your honest opinions and I welcome them since it opens my eyes to other peoples thoughts and feelings about the APBT. Not the law just my 2 cents. Keep learning, Keep Bulldoggin, keep training. Hankdad