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Debate: Would You Consider This Animal Cruelty?

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by Vicki, May 15, 2011.

  1. bionic

    bionic Big Dog

    While I don't agree with your position on this particular matter, I must say you raise some good points. You must be one of those rare people who can argue on the internet without sounding like a prick.
     
  2. lol...that was some funny stuff
     
  3. AmericanDogMan

    AmericanDogMan Big Dog

    Thanks... I'm proud to receive this compliment!
     
  4. Vicki

    Vicki Administrator Staff Member

    We are referring to present day law. Animal cruelty is against the law in fifty states and a felony in forty four. Now who's making the human/animal analogy?

    I was referencing the ideals that expressed, not you.

    I looked up mischaracterization, just to verify the definition against the written word, and couldn't find the word represented anywhere. Perhaps you could help me with a definition. However, If you feel I misinterpreted your words, then you obviously left your words open for such. You said: "if someone wants to do it and let me watch". At no time was it indicated you were sitting in your living room watching National Geographic, or watching a HSUS bust, as you've indicated in your second post.

    Yet in your opening sentence, your very first sentence you contradict yourself by referring to slavery!

    Now, do not get me wrong, I am not an animal right's antagonist.
    I believe we should hunt, fish, and eat meat, especially bacon. Everything on this earth was put here for humanity, but that doesn't give us the right to abuse, be deliberately cruel, or cause suffering.

    Do you doubt an animal feels pain? Have you ever kicked a dog? Ever see anyone kick a dog? The dog recoils in pain. It is out of our moral theory and ethical sense that we pay a certain respect to animals. We are the humans, we are humanity. We are supposed to be the humane species.

    Perhaps the fault lies not in that we do not have a moral theory to rely upon but we have no moral to rely upon.
     
  5. AmericanDogMan

    AmericanDogMan Big Dog

    Your responses in read

    We are referring to present day law. Animal cruelty is against the law in fifty states and a felony in forty four. Now who's making the human/animal analogy?


    I am making an argument based on law. Not species characteristics! Another mischaracterization (used on purpose) and It wasnt illegal in 50 states until 2008! Laws on legal slavery have been around since the beginning of time animal rights not till recent!

    I looked up mischaracterization, just to verify the definition against the written word, and couldn't find the word represented anywhere. Perhaps you could help me with a definition. However, If you feel I misinterpreted your words, then you obviously left your words open for such. You said: "if someone wants to do it and let me watch". At no time was it indicated you were sitting in your living room watching National Geographic, or watching a HSUS bust, as you've indicated in your second post.

    Just because you can't find something on dictionary.com doesn't mean it's not in other dictionaries or in common use throughout the english language.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mischaracterization

    I can understand not appreciating my grammatical use. However, you are parsing and reinforcing my statement!
    "...If someone wants to let me watch..." I.E. Hypocrisy of furmommies?!(not found in dictionary) watching animal cops for entertainment; demonstration of hypocrisy

    Yet in your opening sentence, your very first sentence you contradict yourself by referring to slavery!

    Now, do not get me wrong, I am not an animal right's antagonist.
    I believe we should hunt, fish, and eat meat, especially bacon. Everything on this earth was put here for humanity, but that doesn't give us the right to abuse, be deliberately cruel, or cause suffering.

    Do you doubt an animal feels pain? Have you ever kicked a dog? Ever see anyone kick a dog? The dog recoils in pain. It is out of our moral theory and ethical sense that we pay a certain respect to animals. We are the humans, we are humanity. We are supposed to be the humane species.

    Perhaps the fault lies not in that we do not have a moral theory to rely upon but we have no moral to rely upon.


    Refer to this post opening statement regarding the lack of human animal correlation; refering strictly to laws! I respect you disagreeing, however I believe you're on a slippery slope; Birds are food more often than not and it is my belief outside of a child abuse charge, animal anything is grotesquely outside of reason! Even a child abuse charge is questionable!

    Your food felt pain! It is not for us to pass moral judgement on our fellow citizens. Either human has a soul and was given the earth as its keeper and as such is equal with every man and thus respects that mans sovereignty over his personal property or man should cease to exist because your moral argument has no ending! Trees feel pain yet we cut them down to play baseball or build your home when you live under them! Or make your variations of clothing, we born naked and could live that way in warmer climates. Sounds ridiculous but thats your slope track and arguments ending

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

    My principles are simple.
    Moral theory is a ridiculous premise! All men are created equal is a Biblical one!
     
  6. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    quote Do you doubt an animal feels pain? Have you ever kicked a dog? Ever see anyone kick a dog? The dog recoils in pain. It is out of our moral theory and ethical sense that we pay a certain respect to animals. We are the humans, we are humanity. We are supposed to be the humane species.

    Perhaps the fault lies not in that we do not have a moral theory to rely upon but we have no moral to rely upon.

    If we talking about morale and values, God gave man DOMAIN over all animals which means to reign over or control , to do as we please with them hence why animals have no rights because we control there fates. If the position was reversed and the animals controlled our fates then we humans would have no rights but that shit only happens in Narnia LMAO.
     
  7. AmericanDogMan

    AmericanDogMan Big Dog

    WHat he said!

    :cowboyclap::cowboyclap::read2:

    to add!!

    With multiple resources

    NIV John 8:7
    When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

    http://bibleresources.bible.com/pas...&version4=0&version5=0&Submit.x=34&Submit.y=8

    Thus this is not one of the ten commandments;

    Thou shall not be cruel to your food!

    For your reading pleasure the ten commandments http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20&version=NIV

    No but rather God said.

    Genesis 1:28
    God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
    http://bible.cc/genesis/1-28.htm

    Ten commandments however does say to respect another mans property!!:cool:

    So after the original sin, the moral conundrum begins with the multiplication of people how to respect each others sovereignty and remain good stewards of our dominion!

    I contend Jesus said follow him, and allow the father to pass judgement:
    Because judgement is the lords! (repeated to many times to give a source)
    However Matthew 7 sums it up best: http://niv.scripturetext.com/matthew/7.htm

    Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

    He also said you can't get to kingdom of heaven through good works!!

    Ephesians 2: 8, 9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

    But again in Matthew 7:21 God says Not all who say my name but who do the will of the father.

    21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    But again in Ephesians 2 he says you know not the way until Jesus reveals it. Because at one point we are apart of the world (Original sin)
    Ephesians 2
    1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

    Thus why America was founded as a Christian Nation under libertarian principles and became the greatest Nation on Earth. We begin to lose that with nonsensical laws presuming Dominion over other man and that mans property. No people have ever been or would ever be freer than under true Christian rule (Our Constitution)


    This is where Moral arguments begin and end in my and I presume our founders mind.

    in my words

    I am not God, All men are CREATED equal (it is up to life to decide how they finish) and have been given by their creator the right to dominion over their possessions, property, their own life and the earth. And with that they are to carve out their own personal relationship with their creator unimpeded by another man and that includes the collective of man, the Government.

    anything else is rooted in a desire for power over man, and is in fact in and of itself immoral! Thus wishing to be God and in direct opposition with God! (whoever that maybe or not be for you)

    Christianity is a religion that allows for that freedom for all man and the U.S. the only nation to attempt to secure that for all men. Don't throw it away because someone else does something with their belongings that disgusts you.

    Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

    Measure can be degree and degree on something you deem to be unrelated!

    Ron Paul revolution;
    E4!
     
  8. nobody

    nobody Banned

    get out of here with that religion crap
     
  9. Bronxdog

    Bronxdog Pup

    That about sums up this lush's character:rofl:...child cruelty too.
     
  10. AmericanDogMan

    AmericanDogMan Big Dog

    OK... Except for the crap part.

    Just making a parallel between moral and spiritual arguments! Read it as a guide to anyone making the moral argument for animal rights/welfare law.

    It wasn't for you. So now i'll speak to you!!

    Don't be afraid because of the religious TEXT. It makes you look ignorant!

    If someone makes a moral argument you allow it. But i doubt anyone would disagree biblical text as one the highest moral authorities and many would think it was the highest!

    So *sshole; when they take your dogs away w/ BSL or some new cruelty law about kibble. I want yo to remember when someone was defending your right to property and freedom your ridiculous dumb*ss attacked!!
     
  11. AmericanDogMan

    AmericanDogMan Big Dog

    Previous post in response to this NOBODY!!
     
  12. Vicki

    Vicki Administrator Staff Member

    Sweet Jesus, we're opening the bible, it's my lucky day! Be ready to be trounced! Let us start with Luke 12:6!

    Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?

    Our lesson:

    Not one of them is forgotten before God; a single sparrow, a bird of little value and worth, is taken notice and care of by him; it has its life from him, and is provided for with food by him, and is under his protection; nor does he ever forget it, nor can any thing be done to it, without his permission; it cannot be struck, so as to cause it to fall on the ground or be killed in any shape, without the knowledge of God: his providence reaches to the minutest creatures and things, and much more then to rational creatures, to men; and still more to his children, ministers and apostles.

    More to follow...Genesis...Jonah....Hosea...
     
  13. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua


    Trounced? LMAO I aint going into a religious debate but you did not complete the whole verse you only wrote half like you are cutting and editing it like you want it to be lol.

    “Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God. 7“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.
     
  14. Lee D

    Lee D CH Dog

    dont we have a policy on religion here, or does #17 only pertain to threads, and not posts?
     
  15. Vicki

    Vicki Administrator Staff Member

    They started it Lee, and you are correct. Sorry, I study religions, and this is where the debate would end all. Christianity, Paganism, Buddhism, Atheist and satanists, I can cover it all. Religion is my forte`.
     
  16. Vicki

    Vicki Administrator Staff Member

    Proverbs 12:10
    A righteous man regards the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.

    A righteous man regards the life of his beast - One principal characteristic of a holy man is mercy: cruelty is unknown to him; and his benevolence extends to the meanest of the brute creation. Pity rules the heart of a pious man; he can do nothing that is cruel. He considers what is best for the comfort, ease health, and life of the beast that serves him, and he knows that God himself cares for oxen: and one of the ten commandments provides a seventh part of time to be allotted for the rest of laboring beasts as well as for man.

    Exodus 23:12
    Six days you shall do your work, and on the seventh day you shall rest: that your ox and your ass may rest, and the son of your handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

    On the seventh day you rest, your animals rest. It benefits the soul, your health and your body, and your animal's too. God was not indifferent to animals.

    Jonah 4:11
    And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more then six score thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

    Learn, then, from this, that it is the incorrigibly wicked on whom my judgments must fall and against whom they are threatened. And know, that to that man will I look who is of a broken and contrite spirit, and who trembles at my word. Even the dumb beasts are objects of my compassion; I will spare them for the sake of their penitent owners; and remember with the rest, That the Lord cares for oxen.
     
  17. AmericanDogMan

    AmericanDogMan Big Dog

    To ALL:

    My point wasn't a religious one!

    TO 3MAT3
    Your making point again. Law is not based on moral judgement, especially not in a country where all men are free and free to establish there own relationship with God or No God!

    It was the new testament. Animal Cruelty law is a moral judgment and has no benefit to society!

    ADM 1 HSUS 0
     
  18. AmericanDogMan

    AmericanDogMan Big Dog

    Saving a child saves societal crime and welfare cost.

    drug laws the same

    Domestic violence same

    Make me an argument; show me the cost analysis to police someone's relationship with their dog, cat or bird. If it's not health related (rabies shot) or public nuisance (noise ordinance; leash law). Show me how this doesn't drain public resources from the elderly, the poor, the sick, the needy, or public safety. Human and financial resource wasted to impose moral judgement. (Billions, prisons, courts, lawsuits and appeals, Billions wasted)
     
  19. c_note

    c_note CH Dog

    this is my first post. after YEARS of lurking, i joined this year. that said, religion has been, in my opinion, one of the biggest dividers of men.. we based our laws on beliefs not everyone had, but ADOPTED! seems to me today lawmakers are "soft christians," bending and twisting laws as they see fit. by soft i mean not doing what is needed to better MAN, animals fall where they may.. as great of a country we are, our justice system still puts animal right over humans! people have killed PEOPLE and gotten less time than animal cruelty! WTF?! the electrocution thing sucks, no doubt, but what is going on in the SLAUGHTERHOUSES? (hell of a name for food processing) we need more laws to help people. the world/country is in shambles and parakeets are a headline????
     
  20. Tiger12490

    Tiger12490 Big Dog

    point blank who cares its a bird....
     

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