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Breeding Practices

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by vellie, Jan 6, 2021.

  1. magnoilaotis

    magnoilaotis Top Dog

    Honestly, I think this is what most of us do or similarly try to bring all those old traits forward to manifest themselves consistently in the litter. The issue is a good deal of folks don't have experience with said line(s) of dogs to accomplish this. It is more throw it against the the wall and see what sticks. Personally I like loosely linebred dogs, but I don't want to achieve the by breeding poor examples of the line. Anyway, my philosophy is leave breeding to the breeders unless you are breeding for yourself and have a clear goal of what you are trying to accomplish. It seems like there are more and more people sticking dogs together with the only goal being to make a sell and hope it turns out based solely on the pedigree. Not knocking anybody for trying to make a buck, but it should be bigger and more thought out than that.
     
  2. ben brockton

    ben brockton CH Dog

    I'm of the opinion honest dogs will produce honest dogs for the most part no matter what pedigree is. With that being said it doesn't take much to fuck up good dogs and get German shepherds. I believe that I could get usable dogs no matter what bloodlines over time. I believe pedigree only really matters when you breeding your own stock to use as a reference.
     
    Lymanara and AGK like this.
  3. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    Even then, at least speaking for myself, you should still be breeding 2 dogs that compliment each other or have what the other is lacking. I rarely look at my pedigrees. Looking at the dogs being bred will for the most part take you further than paper breeding.
     
    Cooterman likes this.
  4. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I think families/strains get better when the two being bred are the reason they are being bred, if that makes sense.

    Too many times two dogs are bred, or a stud is picked because of something that happened several generations ago, and sometimes even many years ago. This is where the slippery slop starts.

    I'm a Red Boy fan. When I was a kid and saw dogs off Red Boy and they have always been what I considered to be Red Boy dogs. Most of the Red Boy dogs I see today do not mesh/match up to the dogs I remember from way back when.

    But if a person wants to get in these dogs and sell puppies his very best option is buying two 'pure' Red Boy dogs. Regardless of origin, regardless of actual quality, a "pure" Red Boy puppy will sell when nothing else can draw pennies on the dollar.

    I just bred a male and he is splattered top and bottom with dogs that I see the Red Boy I seen as a kid. I call him a Red Boy dog. Reading his pedigree, maybe not so much, and could even be called a loose line breeding on another family altogether. But after each sets were bred and I got access or got a chance to see them I always picked what I consider Red Boy type traits. In time my Hatchet dog is what I consider a Red Boy dog.

    Not may would breed to him if they were looking for "RED BOY".

    I am most definitely not a breeder and even a lesser "reader of pedigrees".

    I roll with "I like him" and "I like her" and no need to call eHarmony for some one else's matchmaking skills.

    https://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=539946

    I am hoping he throws what I see vs what how his ped reads.

    S
     
    magnoilaotis, PlugUgly and AGK like this.
  5. Lymanara

    Lymanara Banned

    I absolutely agree with you.
     
  6. corvettedex

    corvettedex CH Dog

    Benthere, I'm not a breeder, but This is so well written and the gospel ..
     
    david63 likes this.
  7. corvettedex

    corvettedex CH Dog

    I've been around a few 24 hours and I am going to keep it simple. Certain people are Gifted when it comes to breeding Bulldog's. They all share a common theme. The selection of Foundation stock is always from the Bulldog's that have shown to be deep game, intelligent, well rounded Bulldog's. Then giving the pups a fair chance to become mature and proven as the original stock that was chosen to begin with. However, certain men such as Mr Hollingworth was stubborn, hard headed and believed all Black Bulldog's to be curs and wouldn't allow them in his breeding program. He was successful , with out looking or so much as even rolling his Bulldog's. Now Maurice Carver "The Old Master " was as gifted as a breeder as they come. J.P. Colby was the pinnacle of Gifted breeders. He also a
    Placed his pups with folks who would love them and when they turned on , ah shit J.P. would go pick up the adult and drop off another pup. There are so many people breeding these Bulldog's and could care less about the quality of the lineage. I feel that if better standards were set , lots of patience, proper placement, love , nutrition, schooling after care, ect . One would have greater significance in the World of The breed.
     
    david63 likes this.
  8. ziggy311

    ziggy311 Big Dog

    I have been around this breed for 45 + years & yes planning breeding's are a major part of breeding.

    No breeder of any worth has ever just threw mud against the wall & see what sticks.
    There pedigrees are proof of that.

    Breeding schemes, Punnet Squares, breeding based on the Paternal & Maternal side & so on are key factors.
    Real & true breeders have an understanding that you don't just throw mud against the wall & see what sticks.
    You can see common breeding schemes & patterns commonly used in most families regardless of breeding or strain.

    The same way you are supposed to read a pedigree from right-left to see the patterns used , you should also breed from right to left.
    Performance is the key to what dogs will be used but the the pattern is used to keep from breeding to tight & losing hy-bred vigor.

    Each time you get one that meets your standard & you want to put into your program ,you want to breed at least to a handful of different dogs to find the ones from that dog that will meet the standard. From this you can run based on not only on performance but but also maintaining %'s of that dog. Just about all families of dogs built around specific dogs are bred by using this dog top & bottom of each dog that is being line bred. Such as uncle/nice, 1/2 brother & sis & so on. That specific dog will be on top & bottom of each dog being bred.

    When breeding dogs you will not just breeding the same dogs over & over but use breeding schemes such as 2 in -1 out cross or 3 in -1 out cross & so on. The 2 dogs being bred may be 75% of the dominate family 25% out to another that is 50% of the dominate family & 50% out.
    The purest families pass on the dominate trait that family is known for.
    It's always best to use pure dogs over to your family mixed up in you family if you are looking for those traits.
    Most families of the past only needed 3 dogs to initially start a family with.

    You have many of combinations you can get from these initial 3 dogs.
    after you have done that its then you start to add to the family.

    If you go back about 20 years ago & more most dogs were far more pure with far more actual breeders & dogs from these breeders vs most these days commenting on breed and never claim to be breeders.
    The basic to breeding a family is simple.

    1. Establish a base
    2. use at least 3 different families to keep the from breeding yourself into a corner.
    3. Keep something from your initial pure foundation separate from the blends so if things go south it won't be a total failure.
    4. Breed based on the dogs that worked in the past of the pedigree to maintain what you have and let the dogs in the front of the pedigree show you which direction to go in the future.
    5. Use more than just 1 top & 1 bottom to keep the hybred vigor.
    example: dogs take more after there grand parents then there parents , so when you do a 1/2 brother/sister breeding it's a breeding based on the common parent. This maintains 50% of that common parent so you can keep breeding to other 1/2 siblings off that one parent to build up your foundation & pass genes even further.

    Just 2 examples of many of establishing a family from scratch & blending over 1 dozen pure families in to a single family strain.
    Not only that but about 16 generations of 1st hand experience without breeding them cold & keeping hybred vigor in the family.

    1.
    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=736487
    2.
    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=701079
     
  9. corvettedex

    corvettedex CH Dog

    Good to see ya back Ziggy
     
    david63 likes this.
  10. ziggy311

    ziggy311 Big Dog

    Thank You Sir!
     
    corvettedex likes this.
  11. Michele

    Michele CH Dog Super Moderator

    If you are not breeding to better the breed, don't breed.
     
    F.W.K., corvettedex and ben brockton like this.
  12. corvettedex

    corvettedex CH Dog

    Ziggy , you have your own family of Bulldog's. In my honest opinion it takes 7 generations of breeding to call that family your own. What are some of the most important aspects of you experience, knowledge, Trail and error?
     
  13. corvettedex

    corvettedex CH Dog

    The reason I'm asking is because as use said, in a great family of Bulldog's, the pedigree shows that one would key in on certain performers/producers. Such as
    ONLINE PEDIGREES PEDIGREE STATISTICS :: BASS TRAMP RED BOY :: [60]
    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=pedigreeStatistics&dog_id=60
     
  14. ziggy311

    ziggy311 Big Dog


    Yes Sir trial & error is the corner stone of breeding.
    It's a lot more than just organized chaos , it's creating & sticking with Punnet Squares .
    Breeding is all just a big science project.
    But based on science you can centralize key traits & maintain them.
    No matter how good of a breeding program you have at some points the peak out.
    There will still be good but still may lack in something.

    If you talk to pigeon breeders who breed Rollers you may hear them talk about breeding for the box or breeding for the sky.
    Same with dogs.
    Not everything is breed just for performance but to enhance the combination that produced the best performers.
    Example:
    If a dog down from jeep in his 2nd generation crossed with a dog down from Red Boy in his 2nd generation had a good turn out rate & produced everything you liked,
    imagine what a dog bred pure that same Jeep bred dog for 6 generations bred to a dog bred Pure that same Red Boy bred dog for 6 generations will give you?

    Too many these days look for instant gratification instead of long term productivity .

    A Great dog may never produce a good dog in it's life but a good family of dogs will always produce great dogs on many of yards for a very long time.

    You plan breeding's based on key working dogs style .

    But what's on top vs what's on bottom makes a difference, how much makes a difference & so on.

    If you like a dog you feed you may want to try several ways to build on that dog.
    It's not just breeding him to a dozen different females but breeding dogs down from him in many of different ways.

    Most of the famous families of dogs in the 20th Century were all related to Tudors Dibo.
    Different breeders line bred different ways with different cross yet had a single common dog they were all based on.

    Why not just do the same with a dog from your own yard that you like.
    Breed him or dogs down from him in different ways to get different results.
    The same way Carver dogs may work with Mayfield dogs or Patrick dogs may work with Lonzo dogs & so on , most of the families were just line bred Dibo dogs .

    Using this method of thinking I experimented with different out crosses & different breeding schemes (patterns) to see what worked best over the years.
    Another thing is you are breeding your own future out crosses.

    1 seed will not just produce on tree but it will produce many of roots & branches on that same tree.

    Some dogs you may be able to get consistent working dogs inbreeding such as a single male to females down from him such as this http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=370139 while other times the best other times it may be thru just line breeding another way http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=465276 . Both dogs have the same dog in them 3 times but they were built different and had different style.
    Other ways may be like a jugger naught where you add new blood as you go such as this increasing & changing the foundation such as this http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=672161 .

    And this http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=701079

    No matter which rout you go ,some breeding you will stick with as a base .

    No books, talks & theories can hold a candle in teach next to trial & error Sir.
    It does not matter what some one else done in the past it's what you do in the present & future that's important!
    What another man eats won't make you take a dump!
     
    corvettedex and CopperOFRN like this.
  15. ziggy311

    ziggy311 Big Dog


    The more dogs you see in a pedigree yourself the less you will guess about what dogs to breed yourself.
    The less you guess the more you get done .
     
    BloodHound and AGK like this.
  16. Some very true words
     
  17. corvettedex

    corvettedex CH Dog

    If the pedigree is True?
     
  18. corvettedex

    corvettedex CH Dog

    I agree if the pedigree is true. Maurice Carver would sell you the cake but not the recipe for his success in Bulldog's. Famous quote by Maurice Carver is, "A Bulldog' just isnt a Real Bulldog unless it's got some Colby in it" ! Now I realize that was many years ago.. However, He said it.
     
    BloodHound likes this.
  19. corvettedex

    corvettedex CH Dog

    I'm not surprised. About 95% of all our hounds , if we follow that ped back , we will end up at the Colby yard .A few of the greatest producers such as Jeep , Redboy was Colby. Folks want to argue about a pedigree 30 years plus later. Lol
    All of our Bulldog's go back to Colby, Covino, Henry, ect
     
  20. ben brockton

    ben brockton CH Dog

    He also said "a good bulldog needs some trash in the pedigree so the good stuff can rise to the top". Just kidding lol
     
    corvettedex and Michele like this.

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