same old flavor

its sad that most people really have no clue how to look at a dogs pedigree most I see a lot of people who are stuck in a repetitive cycle of paying stud fee or buying pups because they have no understanding of building a family of dogs to attain the results desired
or the fact that they really expect for a pedigree to be stacked with dogs that's been dead for so many years to the point they over look good dogs based on good dogs because of the lack of seeing certain names close up in the pedigree is this detrimental for the breed I believe it could be

How much could the breed really advance when the gene pool is actually closing in on its self how can you really tell if a strain is good if its being compared to animals of similar breeding seems as though not many people look to build a family based on crosses or dogs that hasn't been done or they seem to run to the lines that everyone is talking about

with everything being so similar in breeding how many proven dogs in reality are really proven because in my mind if two hammond's dogs are being looked at one will always be better but that doesn't mean that the lesser dog was no good and it doesn't mean the better dog is an ace

variety is needed

hope all works out for everyone

 

Nice post Franklin. I would imagine, the lack of testing or difficulty to test dogs, especially in the US, would have a detrimental effect on the gene pool and promote paper breeding and nostalgia of dogs long gone and the desire to stack them in a pedigree as mentioned above..

 

Nice post & speak well of the times .

I fell like one of the last of my kind these days were breeding your own from scratch & having your own families is less likely to happen.
Everyone is a follower these days IMO.
And most were not taught he basics of even the concept of using breeding schemes & patterns .
They don't know Punnett squares , How to make families homogenize or how to read the pedigree from right-left now the other way around.

Allot of basic fundamentals have been lost .

They will always have and breed these dogs no matter what but how to make good dogs better is fastly leaving.
Too many just sold dogs in the past with passing down how to keep families alive or how to build there own families.

I have my own & not just 16 strait hands on generations but 1st hand knowledge of dogs going back 19 generations in my families.

Most families of the past only need "3" to start a family with and create a base.
It takes more of seeing each dog in the pedigree than trying to keep up with the new flavor of the year.

I can take 1 from 3 different breeding's I do & create a whole new branch to my old family tree.

Spoken from experience not talk & concepts.
Just 1 from each litter will start a whole new family .

1.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=736487
2.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=701079
3.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=703841

Once again good topic.

 

Could you elaborate on the use of punnet squares? I’ve got a basic understanding of dominant and recessive traits. How far back in a ped can recessive traits still continue to show with a future litter? I mean, if you breed a brown eye dog to a brown eye dog, but you have a blue eyed grand parent- you can still get that recessive trait on a future litter, right? You’re just minimizing the chances? Same for other characteristics right? Isn’t that the importance of stacking the ped top, and bottom with the same dog? Keeping it real tight? Punnet squares are confusing as hell to me

 

The day one lets anything other than the dogs let you know how to breed them is the start of their downfall.

 

I think I’ve seen you say that somewhere else on here too. Seems to me there are a few different schools of thought as to work produce great dogs, or improve good dogs. Your approach seems to be- find decent dogs, work the shot out of them, and let them weeds themselves out?? (Very simply put) ziggies approach and I could be wrong is more scientific I guess you could say?? I can tell you as far as looks my 4 month old AB is a carbon copy of his grandparents on his fathers side. Other than that- I never met the rest of his ped. Lots of catch dogs. I’ll start weight pulling him at around 6 months and we’ll take it from there. I guess I’ll be using your method since I don’t have access to evaluate each dog in his ped. So, if he puts in work, and develops into a great pull dog- I’ll try and find a 2 females that would complement Clyde well, NO? Im just trying to use your method, combined with ziggies method because there is a lot of distance between me and female prospects, and Clyde may very well
Not be worth breeding. Any insight is appreciated

 

Yes have said it many times and have also posted a lot of scientific information about genetics and theories. But mother nature has the final say because just based on how genes work we don't really know much more than geno/pheno types. Think about it hundreds of years and we still don't know what a " game gene" is but we know what a game dog is. Breed 2 game dog together and you may produce a all cur litter breed two cur dogs and you may get some game dogs. There's way too many variables based on genetics to do anything other than rely on letting the individual dogs do the dictating of the direction to breed them. This is why the man behind the dog is the biggest factor. This why the guys with the best eyes and understanding can produce consistent dogs. At the end of the day the core has always been small and our dogs go back to the same common ancestors Tudor, Heinzel, corvino, Colby etc everyone is really breeding the same stuff based on different individual dogs. You will always get 49% genetics from father and 51% from mother because of mitacondra lol as to what genetic combinations the offspring get are a mystery. So if you're doing anything other than letting them tell you how to breed them is a fools errand. Get a bag of skittles dump in a bowl no two hand full will be the same but you will always get skittles. Some bags are just better then others.

 

Yea- I’ve been told this quite a few times in different ways. I guess it’s about time I just accept that there is no full proof way of guaranteeing ANYTHING- just increasing chances/outcomes. Wouldn’t you say it’s important to keep your lines tight once you have the right mix of genetics. You might have a long winded dog with a soft mouth, and a box burner with a hard mouth. Might try breeding them and working the pups to weed out the undesirables? For me personally- I’m hoping Clyde has big nostrils/deep chest/ and a hard mouth with zero quit. As of right now he runs every single day with me on the quad up to a few miles and is never gassed. I don’t push hard- he’s still young. He’s got some half sisters that will be hitting the ground in late May I’m considering. Who knows. I appreciate the quick response. I think it’s easier to find good game dog blood than AB blood. You wouldn’t believe it, but there is even more bullshit in the AB world as far as tall tales...

 

No problem Sir.

The basics of a Punnett Square is simple the 1st 4 generations effects of the initial crosses & helps with your foundation. You get dogs that look & carry genes to dogs that are from either one to downsized to fixed to a homogenized(well blended version new version of both).

The dogs on the very top of the 4 generation and very bottom of the 4 generation pedigree are your Punnet Square initial dogs. This is why the 4 generation pedigree is known as the "breeders copy".
Dogs are bred from right -left and that's the true way t also breed dogs from right -left.
This is breeding dogs based on what "you " have seen verses left to right what yo have heard or think.
You see 2 dogs work, you breed them. Now you take dogs off that that you have seen work & breed to others that work. Each time you breed based on what you see , you are breeding from right to left. If & when you outcross , you will go back to what you have seen.

If you have a key dog that stands out above the rest in your yard you will breed a pattern naturally based on outcomes. as time goes you may breed your key dog heavy eli to a redboy female & a jeep female & a colby female but you will breed his kids 1/2 brother & sister based on your foundation eli dog.
Old breeders may have bred there Key male to a large variety of females yet they brought back together based on that key male without having to go back to that male himself.

Breeding is a science that all had known & bred performance dogs, horses, & every other creature you can think of. Just like you can find the "Fibonacci sequence " naturally in everything you can also find natural breeding schemes. The Fibonacci Sequence is a "pattern" using the concept of the sum of the 1st 2 numbers + what the 3 number will be. I.E. 1+1=2, 2+1 =3 , 3+2 =5 , 5+2 =7.... 1,3, 5 , 7 .

You can know exactly what you will get before you get to it using this method.

You can find it naturally in everything from waves, clouds during hurricanes, the human body, flowers & so on.
How breeders use it is the Pattern of 2 inside the family , 1 out cross & than back into the family.
Different breeders used similar patterns to get a certain result of performers & producers.

I like to use my own dogs as examples of not just what I done but what I done it.

This is a dog from the Alligator strain in my dogs .
1.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=590658

If you look , you can see it's a 1/2 brother a sister off Lemaster's Tudor. He is a product of a 1/2 brother & sister Off Hammonds Vito, Vito is 1/2 brother & sister off Plummers alligator.
Here is the female pedigree that was bred to the line bred Alligator dog
2. http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=136518
even though it's an Uncle Niece breeding based on a Jap cross line bred down from Alligator, It's still line bred 50% off the female Kirk's Ginger who is 1/2 Alligator.

The similar line breeding method of keeping& maintaining 50% of the initial dog used in the Alligator dog " Browns Negro Tango "is used in a different family the Sorrells Ch Uncle Bud.
2.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=6836
Just like Alligator was initial in the other "Sorrell's Red Jerry was initial in Uncle Bud.
Red Jerry is bred to more females yet the same concept is used.
Uncle bud is bred 1/2 brother & sister off STP who is bred 1/2 brother & sister off Red Jerry.
3.
Bolio dogs in my bloodline are a little different yet same amount end results.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=7616
4.
The Red Boy in my dogs
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=444059
5.
Boomerang in my dogs.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=381605
and so on & so on.
So it would be natural for me to follow same steps used in so many famiilies I combined to get mine own family .

1(a) .
This is a line bred Crossfire dog bred for performance using same standard method of maintaining 50%
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=672161
even though we do this as breeders nature has always done so naturally.

A pack of lions don't have a big variety of males in it. Usually 1 male breeding to many of females.
Dominant male genes become foundation in pride. 1 male breeding to more than 1 female be it related to him or not. Another male lion comes in later when he is old or not and he breeds to the same lioness & offspring. He may be an offspring of the old male or not related at all but his offspring are out crosses for the pack yet the initial pride will still have descendants that inbreed & line breed based off the 1st male. Naturally the gene pool is small & naturally it's based on performance.

Same with all large groups of animals in nature. All large groups are related closely.

Dogs will take more after Grand Parents than parents especially when Classic breeding schemes are used such as 1/2 brother -1/2 sister , Uncle Niece & so on. This is why most all prominent breeders thew out History use it most often. Even though the litter is 50% of each Parent they are still 50% of the common Grandparent.
This is the true way of breeding performance bred dogs.
Of course you breed the ones that work with the ones that work but it's basic knowledge of all old time breeders to shorten the gene pool by line breeding & inbreeding not backwards like most these days using the shotgun or throw mud against the wall & see what sticks method.

People these days do more talk about great breeders & dogs of the past cannot recognize the patterns on how they bred there stock & just look for the famous dogs names in the pedigree.
To top it off they count how many times they see the famous dog name yet don't understand it's how it was bred & not how many times it was bred.

That's why the Punnett Square is showing how much inside the original stock is used & how much out cross.
You develop & foundation & breed around it but you don't just keep breeding away from it.

Hope this helps a little bit.

 

Definitely helps a lot, thanks. I’ll have to read it and cross reference your peds about 40x to fully understand, but I’ve got the basic idea. If you combined this method of breeding with hard testing you should know how to breed your dogs by what you see and increase your chances of consistently breeding what you want by eliminating scatter breeding without backing yourself into a corner using the 50% rule, but still breeding forward. Right? I remember Fibonacci numbers from logic and reasoning. Supposedly the whole world, universe, everything work off of Fibonacci patterns.

 

Yes Sir you got it!

 

Best of Luck CooperOFRN !

 

I'm not a breeder, I have been around a few 24 hours , I agree with BB. These dogs all go back to a basic foundation. Colby. Corvino, Tudor, Heinzel, Henry. Ect
Those men despite there differences bred Bulldog's. J.P was the Top of the pop. Ziggy mentioned Sorrell''s. as well as showed some. An old quote from Bert"; When a Bulldog goes onto the show, it's the parents and grandparents that keep em there. Another one is a Bulldog' isnt going to be any better than there parents & grandparents. I'm of the opinion that if we breed for Gameness 1st, the rest will come. Just my 2 cent

 

https://pedigree.gamedogs.cz/details.php?id=436499

Im just wondering what people think about this breeding that i done not if the dogs will be good but how do you view the breeding inbreeding total outcross or loose line breeding

me myself I like the animals involved but if you choose to give input on what you believe the outcome to be it is also welcomed

I also have a male thats double bred on the dames sir that if all goes well will be bred back to the females off this breeding

and i just aquired a niece to the sir of this litter posted that will be bred to her uncle then to the little double bred male if all goes well

any input is welcome as I am just a student and not a know it all

 

6 months to early to work a pup hard as you can damage there bone and ligaments and muscle. Just get him used to the act of pulling the cart and praise him. When he’s older you can start him on more weight but don’t push him to young you’ll hurt him.

 

At 6 months I’ll just having him getting used to a harness with a 20ft chain behind him. He’s 5 months now and developing really well. He won’t start pulling with a cart until a year or so. I did the same thing with my 10 year old pit and it was a great way to quickly work him without having to leave the yard. Copper would get super excited when he’d see the harness. Right now we just do four wheeler rides and they both love it, as well as the spring pole. I wish this site were more photo/video friendly, or I was a bit more savvy.

 

I wish it would get fixed too. Lol.


It's odd that it only affects particular members. I have not been able to figure it out as to why that is. I have no problems viewing or posting pictures. Other members post them as well without issue. It's been a thorn in my side for over a year now. The site needs a major overhaul and updating.

 

I love this breeding. I would be honored to feed a pair

 

Thanks but sadly she got bit by a spider last week of pregnancy and pups didn't survive only one left a female that is strong and thriving but that breeding will be redone next heat because I like both animals

 

I also believe that offspring take after the grandparents more so than the parents
i also believe that when outcrossing its better to breed to a producing male and breed his daughter back to the original strain to see the benifits of what he brings to the table
seeing as females produce like the farther and males produce like the mother in theory