Blue Paul Terrier

patjr · Jun 26, 2014

Hi EP, a friendly observation is that you knowningly talked bullshit by saying " How did you know i was talking about you? "... then backing it up by being totally dismissive over a legitimate response about an illogical backwards step.( Why start again by using your average dogs instead of continuing with as good as your best ?)..that's sounds like nonsensical advice to me....(was that one of the mistakes your mentor made?)...yet you've been askings opinions from others about their meaning of gameness, (a concept you said your mentor didn't believe in and I presume you don't also.) so was your query a genuine question or just a reason to rebut any other reply???

With that said, I'm in no way suggesting that I'm in the same class as your mentor, as it sounds like he was a true competitor....RESPECT.

For the sake of my imagination and peace of mind, my belief is that 'gameness' has a certain spiritual aspect about it,(to account for the differentials in littermates), that is heavily based on it's heritage and environmental influence . If it is truly a trait, win or lose, it's the most desired and admirable quality blessed by nature.

TDK · Jun 26, 2014

The only part I don't understand about someone disbursing their better dogs and keeping their more average dogs is:

Most who disburse dogs from dogs they breed, do so when they are pups. I don't know anyone who waits until a litter is totally grown and tested to begin the process of disbursal. That being the case, overwhelmingly so, I'd think most DON'T KNOW which dogs are their best, average, or undesirable when they disburse them.

I also think that if someone were to sell any grown dogs, that it would be a matter of price being commensurate with the quality of the dog sold, with some just not being for sale at all. Dogs gifted to someone as grown dogs may be a different story. Everyone is different in their needs, policies and priorities, so I doubt making a call on that is possible as it applies to everyone.

BLUE8BULL · Jun 26, 2014

.....i'd ..go with that ^^^^^...td...would'nt make sense,,,UN-LESS IT'S ALL MUCK AND SOME WOULD DUMP ON NEWBIES/ETC...

CajunBoulette · Jun 28, 2014

That's always been my concern with selling or gifting pups

Sincerely Yours, Cajun

bamaman · Jun 29, 2014

I'll just say don't believe everything you hear ! I have a mentor still living lol..And he has straightened me out more than once ,but we must remember they are human just like us lol.And I am not pointing this out to Elias or no certain indavidualn.It happens ! BUTTTT you will get more out of a man with experience if he likes you ! BUTTT dont expect him to be perfect with out any faults .We are all human .You know the worse part of being human ? well its being human .

ELIAS'PISTOLA · Jul 1, 2014

Saiyagin said: ↑

You werent talking about me, I just responded to your post because you lack dog sense and intelligence and your so easy to pick on LMAO.
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Here here little kitty,your scratching up the wrong post...LIKELY TO GET PISSED ON TO WASH THAT SHIT OFF...

ELIAS'PISTOLA · Jul 1, 2014

patjr said: ↑

Hi EP, a friendly observation is that you knowningly talked bullshit by saying " How did you know i was talking about you? "... then backing it up by being totally dismissive over a legitimate response about an illogical backwards step.( Why start again by using your average dogs instead of continuing with as good as your best ?)..that's sounds like nonsensical advice to me....(was that one of the mistakes your mentor made?)...yet you've been askings opinions from others about their meaning of gameness, (a concept you said your mentor didn't believe in and I presume you don't also.) so was your query a genuine question or just a reason to rebut any other reply???

With that said, I'm in no way suggesting that I'm in the same class as your mentor, as it sounds like he was a true competitor....RESPECT.

For the sake of my imagination and peace of mind, my belief is that 'gameness' has a certain spiritual aspect about it,(to account for the differentials in littermates), that is heavily based on it's heritage and environmental influence . If it is truly a trait, win or lose, it's the most desired and admirable quality blessed by nature.
Click to expand...

GREAT QUOTE....
Good response,he didnt start with average dogs.Later in his breeding program he realised that he did better with cetrain dogs than others because his patientce and overall understanding of any athlete of flesh and blood.
The dogs that were higher ability he placed with the greener people and he worked on the others.Alot of happy friends and if the dogs made it,he more than likely got them back for another prospect.
As far as asking others the meaning of gameness, I asked TDK.His opinon is one of the few that i can value.
The internet meaning of gameness and mine are different,a good debate we all can learn from.
Then we get these retard responses that are nothing more than a quick thought response with no validity besides
the inner idiot fighting to be heard...
I asked a handful of good dogmen what they thought the diffenition of gameness is,and not one said the will to dominate.BUT THEN AGAIN THEY ARE DOGMEN AND HAVNT READ THE INTERNETS DEFINITION.
Ask a dogman you know that hasnt been surfing,i bet none will give that response....
"HOW DO YOU KNOW A DOG IS A CUR,HIS HANDELER IS ONE"....

littlerascals · Jul 2, 2014

back to the blue paul terrier:

The Blue Paul Terrier was a breed of fighting dog that was apparently kept primarily in Scotland and the United States. Very little is known about this dog, other than the fact that it was supposedly quite ferocious in the dog fighting ring and that it was likely the means by which a blue coloration was introduced into Staffordshire Bull Terriers and their descendants the American Pit Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier. There does not seem to be any agreement as to when or where the dog was developed, when or how it went extinct, or even on its appearance and nature. The Blue Paul Terrier was also known as the Scottish Bull Terrier, Blue Poll Bulldog, and the Blue Poll.

Almost nothing is known with certainty about the Blue Paul Terrier. The dog’s origins and eventual fate are shrouded in mystery. Legend holds that around 1770, the Scottish-born American sailor, John Paul Jones, returned to his hometown of Kirkcudbright, located in the Dumfries and Galloway region of Scotland. This John Paul Jones was allegedly the America’s first famous naval hero, most well-known for his taunt, “I have not yet begun to fight.” He supposedly brought several Blue-colored Terriers with him. These dogs were apparently extremely dog aggressive and were quickly adopted by local dog fighters. It is not stated where he acquired these Blue Terriers, but the locals began to call them Blue Paul Terriers in his honor. The breed was allegedly most popular with the “Gypsies” that traveled through the region. However, sources do not make it clear whether these “Gypsies” (a derogatory and obsolete term that describes at least three separate groups in Britain) were Roma, Scottish Travelers, or Irish Travelers. Based on the time and place it is most likely that they were Scottish Travelers, but this cannot be said with any certainty. The Blue Paul Terrier earned a near legendary reputation in the ring, where it was said to be willing to fight to the death. John Paul Jones allegedly returned to America in around 1777, bringing Blue Paul Terriers with him, where they subsequently became established on the Eastern Seaboard.

There are many problems with this story. The biggest is that there does not appear to be any documentation to back it up making it little more than rumor and folklore. Additionally, the timing is just a little bit off. The American Revolution, which began in 1775 (depending on what event is considered the start), was in full swing by 1777. Although primarily fought on the ground in the colonies, there was also a fair amount of maritime conflict as well. The British blockaded most major Colonial ports at one point or another during the conflict as well as interfering with American shipping. It is highly doubtful, although admittedly not impossible, that John Paul Jones would have returned to America at this point, and it is even less likely that he would have been able to bring dogs along with him. In any case, John Paul Jones was apparently already present in America by 1774, and he earned a commission from the Continental Congress in 1775.

It is also completely unclear how John Paul Jones first acquired these dogs or where they came from. The “Gypsies” who kept them insisted that they were originally from the Galloway Coast, where Kirkcudbright is located. If they were developed there, it doesn’t seem likely that John Paul Jones introduced them. It is possible that the “Gypsies” did not actually mean Galloway, but rather Galway, an important city located on Ireland’s Western Coast. If so, the Blue Paul Terrier may have been a descendant of the Kerry Blue Terrier, but that is little more than speculation. It is commonly stated that the Blue Paul Terrier was a form of Bull and Terrier, a cross between an Old English Bulldog and a Terrier. This is possible, but somewhat unlikely. Although Bull and Terriers may have existed for centuries, they were not common until after 1835, when dog fighting’s popularity rose after bull-baiting and bear-baiting were banned by Parliament. If the Blue Paul Terrier did date back to the 1770’s, it would have predated most other Bull and Terriers by more than 60 years. The surviving drawings of Blue Paul Terriers are not conclusive. They do look similar to other drawings of Bull Terriers, but these were made well into the Blue Paul Terrier’s history, and may actually represent crosses between that breed and Bull and Terriers rather than the original breed itself. In any case, those drawings are not conclusive and show a dog that looks just as much like a Manchester Terrier and other Terrier breeds as it does a Bull and Terrier. References are made to the breed having the same blue coat as some Greyhounds, and it is possible that the breed was actually a cross between a blue Greyhound and a Terrier, although this has no more evidence than any other theory. Other theories that have been posited are that the dog may have been descended from crosses between Terriers and one of the Blue Gascony Hounds, Collie-type dogs, or perhaps a Native American dog, but these theories are even less likely.

Little is known with specificity about the Blue Paul Terrier. It was supposedly extremely dog aggressive and readily willing to fight to the death. The breed usually had a bluish grey coat, but it isn’t clear if the coat was always solidly-colored or if it sometimes possessed white markings. Not all Blue Paul Terriers were blue, and red and brindle breed members were also sometimes born. These dogs were known in Scotland as Smuts or Red Smuts. The breed was quite muscular and athletic. Those drawings that have survived show a dog with a short, smooth coat, relatively long and straight legs, and a medium-length very slender tail. The head of this breed looked powerful, and was topped by erect ears, although whether they were naturally-erect or artificially cropped is unknown (although most think that they were cropped). The breed’s muzzle looked quite short, roughly half the length of the skull, but it was also relatively wide. The breed had a wide and deep chest, which may have made it look rounded. Allegedly, the breed stood up to a height of 50 centimeters (roughly 19½ inches) at the shoulder, and weighed approximately 20 kilograms (roughly 44 pounds). Although the dog had a Blue Coat, it was said to have amber eyes, which were neither prominent nor sunken. The Blue Paul Terrier supposedly had a very unique facial expression, one that it alone among all dogs possessed. This expression was the result of a small dip in the forehead combined with an unusually expressive facial musculature. Some have theorized that the musculature was the result of the combination of the musculature of two different breeds, but since all dogs have the same facial muscles, this would seem to be impossible.

As has already been stated, dog fighting became considerably more popular in the United Kingdom after 1835. Dog fighters discovered that Bull and Terriers made the most ideal fighting dogs as they combined the size, power, and ferocity of the Bulldog and the quickness, dog aggression, and determination of the Terrier. British dog fighters began to cross a number of different Terrier varieties with Bulldogs in an attempt to develop the ultimate fighting dog. These breeders incorporated the Blue Paul Terrier into their breeding programs. Breeders in Staffordshire particularly favored the Blue Paul Terrier, and the Blue color was introduced into the Staffordshire Bull Terrier as a result. When Staffordshire Terriers were introduced into America in the mid-1800’s, they were further crossed with American fighting dogs, among them the Blue Paul Terriers allegedly descended from dogs brought back by John Paul Jones. This introduction of Blue Paul Terrier blood (as well as that Blue Staffordshire Bull Terriers) had a major impact on the subsequently developed American Pit Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier. Blue has long been one of the most popular colors among American Pit Bull Terrier fanciers, such dogs are commonly referred to as Blue Nose Pits, and much, much more rarely, Blue Pauls.

It is sometimes said that the Blue Paul Terrier was one of the first dogs brought to America with English immigrants in the 19th Century. However, this is in no way accurate. British settlers had been bringing dogs with them to America since the 1600’s. Bloodhounds accompanied the earliest British settlers to Virginia, and the Mayflower carried a Mastiff and a Spaniel to Plymouth. Many other breeds preceded the Blue Paul Terrier to America, including Collies, Foxhounds, and other varieties of Terrier.

At some point, the Blue Paul Terrier went extinct, although there does not appear to be any information as to when that occurred. The breed may have died out anytime between 1850 and 1900. Although many breed members likely perished in combat, the breed probably did not die out in the traditional sense. Instead, it was likely so frequently crossed with American Pit Bull Terriers and Staffordshire Bull Terriers that it ceased to be a distinct breed and was enveloped into those dogs as a color variety. The fact that no one documented its extinction may be evidence that dog fighting fanciers did not think that it was gone entirely, but that its blood lived on in other breeds.

The Blue Paul Terrier resembled contemporary Staffordshire Terriers. They had a smooth coat and were powerfully built. They weighed about 50 lbs. and measured up to 22 inches at the withers. The head was large; the forehead was flat, muzzle short and square, large and broad but not receding like that of the. The jaws and teeth were even with no underbite. They had a slight dip between the eyes, which were dark hazel and not sunken. The ears were small, thin, set high, and invariably cropped, with a tight face. The eyebrows contracted or knit. The facial expression of the Blue Paul has never been seen in any other breed and can frequently be recognized in mixed breeds. The body was round and well ribbed up, it’s back short, broad, and muscular, and its chest deep and wide. The tail was set low and devoid of fringe, rather drooping and never rising above the back. The dog stood straight and firmly on its legs. Its forelegs were stout and muscular, showing no curve. The hind legs were very thick and strong, with well-developed muscles. The color was dark blue as can be seen in Greyhounds. However, they sometimes produced brindles or reds, which were known as red smuts in Scotland.
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and then another theory:

Wally123 · Aug 14, 2015

I think it's pretty ignorant to say working terriers aren't game, I suspect most on here haven't worked any? The right ones are as game as they come, it's just their enemy isn't another dog.

Timboteuta1@gmail · Sep 15, 2017

ELIAS'PISTOLA said: ↑

The trouble with saying that our bulldogs decend from anything other than bulldogs is just speculation.Some rightfully so.I like to think that our bulldogs were from a mollasser type ,which are bigger dogs right?How did they get smaller and faster?Yes the almighty terrier.A big dog can only be so game,true terriers are game to the core...
Blue pauls,red smut and the old black HENRY dogs are all types of bulldogs probably from the mollasser type...

THE TROUBLE WITH BULLDOGMEN IS THEY BELIEVE BREEDING BULLDOGS TO TERRIERS WAS TO IMPROVE THIER GAMENESS...GTFOH...
Bulldogs might of added mouth and structure to a terrier,but it would take to many generations to get them small enough or spannable to enter a foxhole...
On the other hand bringing the size down,the speed up of bulldogs only made them better as history proves...
Bulldogs are a TYPE,not a breed as we cornered ourselves into thinking...
Alot of the first imports to the u.s. were fairly small and had terrier features...
Has any one noticed the size shape of the snout on our differnt dogs.Some lean moe towards a bulldog with the flatter round face while others extremes resemble almost a greyhound long skinny muzzle...
I noticed the ones that lean more toward a bulldog are more lazy,while the greyhound type are high strung...
The bulldogs can bite,while the greyhounds cant...The ones that can bite usually lack gameness...
I noticed this in quite a few differnt lines,sometimes in the same line...
I think the facial features as well as the overall confirmation is crucial for ballance...
You dont have to agree with me, just agree not to agree with valid counter points...
OPEN FOR DEBATE....signed...anthroBULLDOGology...
"The BIGGER the dog,the smaller the HEART..."Rev.H.Heinzel
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Timboteuta1@gmail · Sep 15, 2017

ELIAS'PISTOLA said: ↑

The trouble with saying that our bulldogs decend from anything other than bulldogs is just speculation.Some rightfully so.I like to think that our bulldogs were from a mollasser type ,which are bigger dogs right?How did they get smaller and faster?Yes the almighty terrier.A big dog can only be so game,true terriers are game to the core...
Blue pauls,red smut and the old black HENRY dogs are all types of bulldogs probably from the mollasser type...

THE TROUBLE WITH BULLDOGMEN IS THEY BELIEVE BREEDING BULLDOGS TO TERRIERS WAS TO IMPROVE THIER GAMENESS...GTFOH...
Bulldogs might of added mouth and structure to a terrier,but it would take to many generations to get them small enough or spannable to enter a foxhole...
On the other hand bringing the size down,the speed up of bulldogs only made them better as history proves...
Bulldogs are a TYPE,not a breed as we cornered ourselves into thinking...
Alot of the first imports to the u.s. were fairly small and had terrier features...
Has any one noticed the size shape of the snout on our differnt dogs.Some lean moe towards a bulldog with the flatter round face while others extremes resemble almost a greyhound long skinny muzzle...
I noticed the ones that lean more toward a bulldog are more lazy,while the greyhound type are high strung...
The bulldogs can bite,while the greyhounds cant...The ones that can bite usually lack gameness...
I noticed this in quite a few differnt lines,sometimes in the same line...
I think the facial features as well as the overall confirmation is crucial for ballance...
You dont have to agree with me, just agree not to agree with valid counter points...
OPEN FOR DEBATE....signed...anthroBULLDOGology...
"The BIGGER the dog,the smaller the HEART..."Rev.H.Heinzel
Click to expand...

Seen slot of big bulldogs and banddogges just as game as any apbt and got a few on my yard right now

Dusty Road · Sep 15, 2017

Wally123 said: ↑

I think it's pretty ignorant to say working terriers aren't game, I suspect most on here haven't worked any? The right ones are as game as they come, it's just their enemy isn't another dog.
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I'v seen them work and they are not game in same sense as Bulldogs,,,

bamaman · Sep 15, 2017

Rough curs when they got the mouth.Can bite you down.

CockneyRebel · Sep 16, 2017

Dusty Road said: ↑

I'v seen them work and they are not game in same sense as Bulldogs,,,
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It's how you perceive it IMO, I think a Terrier that takes a drubbing in a tight earth where it can't really see anything against a bigger, more powerful foe without quitting deseves to be called game.

Saiyagin · Sep 16, 2017

CockneyRebel said: ↑

It's how you perceive it IMO, I think a Terrier that takes a drubbing in a tight earth where it can't really see anything against a bigger, more powerful foe without quitting deseves to be called game.
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I was waiting for someone else to reply to him so it dont look like I am picking on this fool. LMAO

No, its not JUST how one perceives it, if it was then Bruce Jenner can be perceived as game for coming out of the closet and winning the courage award LMAOROTF.......there is a set standard definition of the term GAMENESS one needs to adhere by. If one does not fully understand that term then one cant fully uphold and adhere to that standard.

slim12 · Sep 16, 2017

Can someone define 'gameness'?

S

AGK · Sep 16, 2017

This thread is about gain pages. lmao

CockneyRebel · Sep 16, 2017

Saiyagin said: ↑

I was waiting for someone else to reply to him so it dont look like I am picking on this fool. LMAO

No, its not JUST how one perceives it, if it was then Bruce Jenner can be perceived as game for coming out of the closet and winning the courage award LMAOROTF.......there is a set standard definition of the term GAMENESS one needs to adhere by. If one does not fully understand that term then one cant fully uphold and adhere to that standard.
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You've probably never seen a working terrier let alone work one so what would you know?

I know for a fact there's been Patterdales that would qualify as game in the bulldog world, do you know for a fact there hasn't?

Funny that you mention men, men are one of the few creatures on earth that can qualify as being game on occasion.

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