Breeding to a well bred cur?

Sad part is that if every APBT owner was to really cull there dogs that did not prove to be game then we would have a rare breed like they were in the 60's and not for sale every other ad on craigslist and peds online. Better yet if the owners got game tested in order to own one then it would probably be a dying breed.

 

MM lets asume you guys are right from witch i think you are not. ( as i do think its very relevand how a dog quits).
As it is the dogs listed below are the only dogs to choose from to breed of ""same pedegrees"".
you need to make a chooice to breed to one of the below.
wich one would you use and why!!.
clearly the diferends in caracter is there!!

a quiter who nearly takes his death standing in schok afther a tought long battle
a jumper a dog that clearly wants no part of the action afther some time
a quit on top for no aparend reson rezambles the above.
a Rank cur, who from the get go thus not whant any part of action at al(ofthen confused with a cold dog)

We all know wich of these CURS we would breed to!!, dont we... and also why sins nr 1 is the GAMER one of these curs....
Hold on a Gamer cur!!??. to some thats imposible as a dog that quits is a cur. iven if one shows considereble gamer then others do .It there right to belive so.
But sins we can difine that some of these curs are gamer then the other curs are!!. could it be that the fraze from the past. game dog / deep game dog / dead game dog holds ground.
as the defenition in the past of wat a cur is, was labeld as a dog that quit on top and ore jumpt the pitt. For the record we never bred to a quiter. so the above is no ecscuse for us to do so.It might be for others and there right to do so,
Would we breed to one IF there was no other chooice to save a bloodline ore famely. If he was bred right and bred bij us then hell yes. would i breed to a very wel bred cold bitch hell yes... just being hounest.

 

Bamaman you are aware there whas a lightnerI and a Lightner II famely that Don Mayfield used. and i was posting on the MAFIELD side of the lightner famely he used crosses with the Ni.ger dog..Wich played out!!.

 

I see what your saying Limey. Maybe with all those other factors like the bloodline will die off I might consider it but I doubt it. I would probally do an outcross into another family if my only choice was breeding to a cur or cold dog and start all over again. However, if I did decide to breed to one, id have to keep the first 3 generations and go through them harder than i normally would just for my own reassurance. Performance has nothing to do with production but i still feel its more right to breed to proven gamedogs than their lesser counterparts regardless of that last fact about performance x production. I was always told you breed your bulldogs to bulldogs by anyone I truely respect in the dogs so it's been drilled in for years. Nothing agince those that choose to breed to those dogs it just isnt for me regardless of consequences.

 

Limey I am no Don M follower but I do respect the man for what he done.As far as his Lightner 2 family why dont you elaborate on that some more and tell what you know? Did you see them?

 

Standing the line...cause they don't want to go,,,or they phisically can't go there is a major difference...and if some are blind to what they see,,then they miss out on a major ingriedient to their breeding...???????

 

Theres only few of you lads who were in the fast lane unlike Limey, who was at the same time succesfull competitor and breeder too, so i believe his experience deserve pay attention.

 

AGK The problem with breeding to game dogs only, Is that you never know how truly game they are in the first place!!.
Unless you see them died ore being pickt up to be saved!!. And when doing so you wil never know how game they realy are!!.As they are pickt up....
There are many many dogs that won iven became ch ore grch. Who where never strechst, and could and are quiters ore curs.
But due to there other abiletys, never REALY have to proven there game status. yet people breed of off them claiming they where game dogs. At the same time many of those dogs are probely not shown in a very high level of competition.

At the same time we know of dogs from the past who where lesser fortunate ore blessed in the abilety departmend!. They had to relly on gameness more then others . Ofthen these type of dogs are at the other side of the stick .And take more stick. lots of them do quit in schok.
Showing a hell of a lot more gamennes then many of the abilety blessed dogs that dont ore dindt quit. Do we the breeders therfor consider these dogs Game dog because they did not quit!???. But shown a display of great abilety but gameness!!??.
I for one DONT.Sure they are winners to breed of. and thats what lots of people whant to breed to.
But At least that other dog that did quit has shown how far he COULD go and what he could TAKE. Iventho he quit we can clearly see how DEEP he whent. And if he whent deep ENOUGHF to breed of.. Hensh a quiter can be a very deepgame dog . just not deadgame........... To me that dog is not a cur!!.. A real cur to me is Garners ch Simba. who blew tru al his uponends in short order and QUIT on top in his 4th, quiting on his first scrachs in his life!!! .. Thats a dog that quits on TOP. THATS A CUR.
His abilety took him far enought to become ch without being a game dog...
Yet the quiter in shock had to rely on gamenes for a very long time taking massif abuse.. I would not breed a mongrowl to Simba. but i would breed to that other quiter tho....

The quiting foundation dogs used by the very wel known legendary breeders and generations befor us
in the likes of Bullyson/ Snooty ecetera. where no curs in my eyes but game dogs. they where quiters that took a considereble amound of punismend and where way of in the shape and feeling good compartmend and ore where defenatly not up to the task when they had to...
Belive me many many a very good deepgame dog has been distroid when they quit in schok. while thousends of dogs have been bred out of dogs that are called game dogs for the simple rezen that THEY didnt quit and where never brought to that critical point. And ore where PICKT UP GAME befor they DID quit..living out there lives as game stud dogs...

I can remember very wel where these old timers had these same kind of multiply wining dogs!!. and would not breed of off them befor they had chekt there oil. looking if they where game ENOUGHF to breed from..... It is ore was not not Game ore Cur!!!.
It was ,are they game ENOUGHF..It IS like F boudraux said people with no understanding cull to fast.
Here is a aczample of the past in the mid 80s of the previus century w. U&S grch nicky vs Mr bulldogs Fatso.
Nicky being bred out of U&S Coco Baby and Boling wares(pedegree littermate brother of Nicky) http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=407497
Fatso being out of Nelis x Tug http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=4379

as we can see both superior bred animals of the past top noch second to none pedegrees.Meeting second to none uponends.
Fatso and Nicky actualy met when very young and Nicky was pickt up in a onslought wat seemt to be bij some as a nearly eurly quit!! in 20 min in a schooling roll.

The breeder of Nicky bought him back from his owner who lost intrest afther. U&S sat on nicky for a long time to mature out.
Befor his career started. he first met a Gains fargo/ alligator cross out of http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=13391 , wich lasted 45 min. he was then put against 2 wood snooty countrty boy dogs who where both beat within 35 min. The dogs where simulair bred to this one http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=366341
In his 4e he was shown into a dog called Brodt,s Car who was a littermate to Don Brods CJ7(same ped as brods ch Ninja http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=7338 And beat car in less then 40min.
.
The Fatso dog was shown at 40lbs into a ecspensif winning Kimsy wood import dog also from The country Boys. Fatso won in 28 min...
In that weight division of 42 lbs there was another top contender left called STB Dylan!!. http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=41675 who blew tru 2 upondends him self, one of them was eric,s Patrick
Patrick a bolio Tombstone bred dog son of Bross Handsom(son of indian Bolio) http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=181170
The Dylan camp was negotiating with Both The Fatso camp as with U&S for the Nicky dog. As it was only two out of 3 could meet . And It became Fatso vs Nicky .
Sins the owner of fatso was on a Holliday he had the dog send to Peter Parker former editor of the (american Face your dogsore game dogs magazine). Parker was used to Bolio tomebstone dogs at the time.ped of CH Willy boorger(actualy Willy Burger afther the cartoon guy who was eating burgers al the time) http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=27690 and workt fatso as if he was one.

3 weeks before the show one of the Fatso team whent over to chek him out. and said he was redy and peakt out!!..
At the show 3 weeks later Fatso did not lookt like the ""bulldog"" type he was. but was very fine and his strong build head and body was very slim. It was clear he had been given the wrong condition method.
Both dogs enterd and fatso was the dominand dog for the first 1.30. pushing and pushing and pushing The beter conditiond and more agile Nicky dog. Fatso could barely break the skin in this event . While he was known as a real good mouthed dog who would leave nobody in doubt what he was made of. at 1.45 Nicky came even and showed better shape, when fatso whent douwn and up.. At the 2.0. mark it was clear that Fatso was fighting a loosing batlle The scraching started and Fatso was getting shocky with glazed eyes. His scraching and cordination where fading!. at 3.06 Fatso stoot the line with his nose on the ground wobely and balansing to stay upright!!. and was counted out!!. Back then as today IDIOTS and hard asses called him a CUR dog!!. while he was lifted out he died 3 min later!!. I call that dog a "" dead Dog standing"" when he was unable to go. and as game as they can come!!. and im F.cking proud to have this cur in some of our dogs pedigree. and i wich as a breeder that i had dogs like him!!!today... and would be proubt to feed and breed of off a yard full of curs like him.... AGK. this post is not ment for you personaly. in my bad spelling i do make the wrong cooice of words at times(most of the time). This post is ment for everybody that is intrested in the topic breeding to a well known cur..

 

BLEU8BULL your right!!. but dont rule out the combination with deep schok mental state.
Grove aprisated..

 

HERE'S A Q for all....say your breeding along a certain line...ur bitch come's on heat and the only dog along the line is a un-tested pet house male....would you use him...??...ps:LK I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT THANK'S....

 

Last resort, yes, If you know the line and all its faults, but the progeny have to be well checked to make sure no faults come through. oh and dont peddle the pups.......

 

x2^^^^^^.
^^^^^

 

Well Limey your taking a liberty here questioning PP’s ability for accessing and for training a dog.
Especially seen back then you were still asking around to the top players how you could determine your dogs weight, what to feed what to do how to train etc. etc. and you were trying to wiggle your behind in every schooling session and half ass match which was taking place.
You went that far that most of the top players didn’t really bother for your person.<O:p</O:p
Whiles this PP was going all over the world and was conditioning and matching every kind of bloodline around for a quite some big time dog man and kennels.<O:p></O:p>
If I were you I would restrict myself to venting your opinions for what they are worth and keep away of the story telling and trying to look bigger than you are.

 

I don't take anything on the internet too seriously...lol

As far as your spelling goes, I've been reading your posts long enough now that I barely even notice the spelling when I am reading it and I do understand what your saying. I see your point and liked the Game enough comment you made as that is what we do. Every dog will quit if you set out to see it quit, some just take longer than others. I concider a dog that has seen an honest hour on the dance floor to be of resonable gameness unless he is totally outclassing his partner. For the most part though, I will breed a dog based on what I've seen personally as well as the honesty of the person my dogs come from. I call a quiter of any kind a cur but just like there are degrees of gameness then there is also the other side of that coin which would be the degrees of a cur. I think it would be most accurate to say that I breed dogs that haven't quit.... yet......lol

I do understand what your getting at LK, however still feel the same way about it for my own dogs. It's just a standard I try hard to continually achieve, more like a personal goal for self satisfaction. I also try hard to not judge what other people do with their dogs as far as breeding goes since everyone has different goals with these dogs and I know for a fact that some cold dogs and some cur dogs can out produce some gamedogs but I just feel better not participating in that practice...

 

Well stated.

 

AGK. I think most tru dogman/ breeders in real life think a lot closser then they make out in ore umongst a crouwd.. When we take a hounest trip tru history lane going tru all the books and ore talk to al the oldtimers and interviuews of the past from dogman way befor us .
We see that there has never been a discussion ore mentiond about varius levels of ""curness"" if you like.
But we clearly see the levels of gamennes mentiond/ discribed for dogs. In the likes of Game dog, deep game ore deadgame dog!!. Iven the fraze Pit game dog was also mentiond, used ore given to a medium joker dog. From who they knew was able to win but they where not convinsed of his gamennes he ore she could even be a cur but was good enoughf to put some money on... a low budget dog if you like..

Pickt up game!!. a fraze used on a dog that was pickt up to save his life. ore save further punishmend being compleatly out classed, ofthen pickt up befor a quit and sins he didnt he was pikt up while he was ""still"" game

The word Cur was/is given and labeld ""ofthen"" out of frustraition umongst ALL dogman who disliked eachother ore there dogs. as a insuld ore the truth. And its used to ofthen and to ez in many ocasions. And has as I see it take on mythologicul proportions in its use!!. Hensh today we see Game dog ore Cur dog! and nothing els in between....
The highend dog that quits in 3 hours afther a very toughf one, is seen in the same matter as that midium joker dog that quits and jumps in 25 min!!!. To me thats wrong and unacsepteble .So what do we have as discribed and practised.tru history.

A Cur. Any dogbreed besides a apbt and any dog that ""quits on top for no aperant rezen"" and ore ""jumps the pit""..,
.
Rank cur. Any dog that whants out from the get go.has tail douwn wines and ""cur snaps"" around him.ofthen confused with a cold dog and used to breed of bij those who dont know.

Cold dog. = a dog thats stands thus not fight thus not runn of ore jumps the pit . Stands there wagging his tail taking the abuse. and will take his death doing so.
In the past ofthen labeld as close to a deadgame dog without ever being one. a very rare sight indeed and used bij 99% of the oldtimers as brood stock as they have shown tru history that most of them produce ecstreemly wel. some of them became ROM dogs.


Game dog. a dog that takes punismend but ""stands the line"" when he runns hot.

Deepgame dog. a dog that gose as long as his legs can cary him in a forward motion. taking more punismend that quits in ""deep shock"" ore ""cant""go, .

A deadgame dog. a dog that under what ever sircumstanses wil find a way to make that crawling scrachs and who dies in holds ...

Thats how we where educated in the past from the past.
People can call this bs ore non sens. But thats how most wel known and legendary oldtimers breeders practised there way tru there dog careers .
now there has always been a love hate afair umongst Breeders and the fighters of the past!. thinking diferend in that way. But both could not do without each other.

There where plenty of people ore hard asses in the past. that would cull that awesome good dog that quit in schok. because he did. and was labeld as a cur. Who years later changed there atitutes, when they had to breed of off a dog that altho dindt quit. did not have that level of quality and deepness during there shows!!... anyway my two cents. as for those who completly dont agree ore for the haters. god bless you and have a good one...

 

I agree with this assessment.

The phrase i heard most when i was growing up.....was you can "stop them all if you give them enough of it, at the right time".

 

tubrunwv : benny bob the night of the jimmy boots fight boots died a week later

 

No if there aren't any proven dogs from the line there is probably a reason for that.

 

No there would be proven off the line....he would be jus a house pet....but from a good proven line....